How can Ventura bat Dunn cleanup every day?

[VAfan]

We all know that Adam Dunn is not hitting well.

 

164 ABs, .159 .254 .402 .656 -0.5 WAR 64Ks.

 

He's not the worst hitter on the team. Below him with -0.7 WAR is Konerko, and Jeff Keppinger (2 walks) is at -1.2 WAR.

 

What I don't understand is how Robin can trot out a lineup card with Dunn and Konerko in the middle day after day after day. We've played 48 games. Why are these guys still near the top of the lineup?

 

In NFL football, once teams acquire players, they tend to play the best players, regardless of contract or draft pedigree. They don't care who you are, just what you can do on the field.

 

Robin needs to apply some of that to the Sox lineup.

 

In terms of performance in 2013, this is what the Sox lineup should look like.

 

1. R - Ramirez - .323 OBP, .675 OPS

2. L - De Aza - .712 OPS

3. R - Rios - .885 OPS

4. R - Viciedo - .797 OPS

5. L - Gillaspie - .788 OPS

6. R - Konerko - .658 OPS

7. L - Dunn - .656 OPS

8. R - Flowers/Giminez - .614/.717 OPS

9. R - Greene - .637 OPS

 

When Beckham returns, you could slot him last, but if he hits, move him up. Jeff Keppinger should be a bench player right now.

 

This would be a much more logical lineup. If Dunn and Konerko start to hit better, move them up. For right now, Viciedo and Gillaspie are hitting much better and deserve the 4-5 slots in the order.

 

Why Ramirez over De Aza at the top of the lineup? First, his OBP is much higher, .323 instead of .292. Second, he has 8 steals to De Aza's 5. And with De Aza behind him, if Ramirez get's on second, then De Aza's pull tendencies are helpful to move Ramirez over. Plus, De Aza has 7 HRs to Ramirez's 1. Better to have the power guy up with someone on base.

 

I count the current lineup as a MAJOR strike against Ventura's managing style. He's managing names, not the actual team he has. And it's got to be costing us games. We've scored an AL-worst 177 runs. He's got to do everything he can to squeeze whatever production he can out of this pathetic lineup.

[cabiness42]

Nobody outside of Rios has been hitting consistently well enough to say that it matters that much where they hit in the order.

[lasttriptotulsa]

With De Aza's K-rate, he cannot bat in the 2 hole.

[Heads22]

Your lineup with just their May OPS:

 

 

1. R - Ramirez - .330 OBP, .654 OPS

2. L - De Aza - .721 OPS

3. R - Rios - .845 OPS

4. R - Viciedo - .915 OPS

5. L - Gillaspie - .743 OPS

6. R - Konerko - .640 OPS

7. L - Dunn - .788 OPS

8. R - Flowers/Giminez - .542/.681 OPS

9. R - Greene - .502 OPS

[ShandyMan]

Konerko is not, and will not continue to hit the way he has to this point.

[hawksfan61]

If Dunn and Konerko don't hit like middle of the order hitters we are never going anywhere no matter where they bat in the lineup.

[greg775]

I just hope Dunn keeps elevating the ball to center and left center and even left. Bad things happen when he pulls the ball. The big ox just needs to go with the pitch as he has been on most of his long balls lately.

[Eminor3rd]

Nobody outside of Rios has been hitting consistently well enough to say that it matters that much where they hit in the order.

 

This ^

[caulfield12]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/colum...,5758807.column

 

Phil Rogers column.

 

Dunn basically says the offense will sink or swim with him....Phil notes he's only a .181 hitter in in his almost 2 1/2 years in a White Sox uniform.

 

And a new saying, "The margin for errors is slim."

[ChiSox_Sonix]

I was all over Dunn a few weeks ago and even advocated flat out releasing him he was so bad. But the timing of this thread is pretty silly considering he's actually been a very beneficial player to this club over the past couple weeks.

[Texsox]

Perhaps there is some legitimacy in looking at the line up and deciding that if we're going to win (division,league, WS) then this is the order and line up that we need to make it happen and running that lineup out there each day. We know that without Dunn and Konerko hitting like middle of the order guys this team is not winning the division. I'm not convinced that a lineup of the moment would be more effective.

 

For bad or worse, Dunn will get his cleanup ABs this season.

[caulfield12]

I was all over Dunn a few weeks ago and even advocated flat out releasing him he was so bad. But the timing of this thread is pretty silly considering he's actually been a very beneficial player to this club over the past couple weeks.

 

 

You do know he had a 1/21 streak in the last week, don't you?

[ChiSox_Sonix]

You do know he had a 1/21 streak in the last week, don't you?

 

You do know he had an OPS north of .900 along with 6 HRs and 15 RBI in the time frame I specified, don't you?

[elrockinMT]

I just hope Dunn keeps elevating the ball to center and left center and even left. Bad things happen when he pulls the ball. The big ox just needs to go with the pitch as he has been on most of his long balls lately.

 

 

The Big Ox? No, Greg it's the Big Donkey

[kitekrazy]

We all know that Adam Dunn is not hitting well.

 

164 ABs, .159 .254 .402 .656 -0.5 WAR 64Ks.

 

He's not the worst hitter on the team. Below him with -0.7 WAR is Konerko, and Jeff Keppinger (2 walks) is at -1.2 WAR.

 

What I don't understand is how Robin can trot out a lineup card with Dunn and Konerko in the middle day after day after day. We've played 48 games. Why are these guys still near the top of the lineup?

In NFL football, once teams acquire players, they tend to play the best players, regardless of contract or draft pedigree. They don't care who you are, just what you can do on the field.

Robin needs to apply some of that to the Sox lineup.

 

In terms of performance in 2013, this is what the Sox lineup should look like.

 

1. R - Ramirez - .323 OBP, .675 OPS

2. L - De Aza - .712 OPS

3. R - Rios - .885 OPS

4. R - Viciedo - .797 OPS

5. L - Gillaspie - .788 OPS

6. R - Konerko - .658 OPS

7. L - Dunn - .656 OPS

8. R - Flowers/Giminez - .614/.717 OPS

9. R - Greene - .637 OPS

 

When Beckham returns, you could slot him last, but if he hits, move him up. Jeff Keppinger should be a bench player right now.

 

This would be a much more logical lineup. If Dunn and Konerko start to hit better, move them up. For right now, Viciedo and Gillaspie are hitting much better and deserve the 4-5 slots in the order.

 

Why Ramirez over De Aza at the top of the lineup? First, his OBP is much higher, .323 instead of .292. Second, he has 8 steals to De Aza's 5. And with De Aza behind him, if Ramirez get's on second, then De Aza's pull tendencies are helpful to move Ramirez over. Plus, De Aza has 7 HRs to Ramirez's 1. Better to have the power guy up with someone on base.

 

I count the current lineup as a MAJOR strike against Ventura's managing style. He's managing names, not the actual team he has. And it's got to be costing us games. We've scored an AL-worst 177 runs. He's got to do everything he can to squeeze whatever production he can out of this pathetic lineup.

 

Where have you seen that other than with rookie QBs? Remember Cedric Benson? If they were drafted and given a nice contract they always play. The NFL is just a guilty of that. Professional sports rarely follow that theory.

 

[kitekrazy]

I don't think comparing and contrasting the NFL and the MLB and their handling of busts brings anything to the argument. The two leagues operate differently.

 

Not as much as you think. Even top level NFL free agents get a longer rope. They might get benched in the last year of their contract unless you can get draft picks. Obvious draft picks are more meaningful in the NFL.

 

 

 

[Texsox]

I don't think comparing and contrasting the NFL and the MLB and their handling of busts brings anything to the argument. The two leagues operate differently.

 

True. Especially if you factor in guaranteed contracts, yes in MLB and no in the NFL.

[VAfan]

You do know he had an OPS north of .900 along with 6 HRs and 15 RBI in the time frame I specified, don't you?

 

The point I would make about Dunn is that his power production is just as useful at the bottom of the lineup, because HRs by necessity score runs.

 

But his strike outs just kill any chance of putting together innings where you get a couple of hits, perhaps steal a base, and drive runs in that way. Dunn is next to useless in that capacity, esp. since his walk rate is down.

 

Give me Rios, Viciedo and Gillaspie back to back to back and you've got a chance to score. But what Ventura has done has isolated Rios from anyone behind him who can actually move him over or in with something less than a HR.

 

I would generally agree, however, with the sentiment that the Sox aren't going to be able to compete with Dunn and Konerko not hitting like valuable 4-5 guys. Still, that doesn't excuse the person I blame most in this post -- Robin Ventura.

 

If you think about it, Konerko certainly has no future with the Sox, and once his contract is over, neither does Dunn. So why not move Viciedo and Gillaspie into bigger roles, since they likely have a future with the team that goes beyond this season?

 

As I said, he's playing names, not the players he has before him in 2013. And THAT's BAD MANAGEMENT. It's bad enough, that if he did it all season, I think I'd start looking for someone else to take the helm.

 

[LittleHurt05]

Not as much as you think. Even top level NFL free agents get a longer rope. They might get benched in the last year of their contract unless you can get draft picks. Obvious draft picks are more meaningful in the NFL.

 

NFL free agents rarely make it to the last year of their contract. Contracts are not guaranteed, that's a huge difference. If MLB was the same way, Adam Dunn would have probably been cut already.

[caulfield12]

The point I would make about Dunn is that his power production is just as useful at the bottom of the lineup, because HRs by necessity score runs.

 

But his strike outs just kill any chance of putting together innings where you get a couple of hits, perhaps steal a base, and drive runs in that way. Dunn is next to useless in that capacity, esp. since his walk rate is down.

 

Give me Rios, Viciedo and Gillaspie back to back to back and you've got a chance to score. But what Ventura has done has isolated Rios from anyone behind him who can actually move him over or in with something less than a HR.

 

I would generally agree, however, with the sentiment that the Sox aren't going to be able to compete with Dunn and Konerko not hitting like valuable 4-5 guys. Still, that doesn't excuse the person I blame most in this post -- Robin Ventura.

 

If you think about it, Konerko certainly has no future with the Sox, and once his contract is over, neither does Dunn. So why not move Viciedo and Gillaspie into bigger roles, since they likely have a future with the team that goes beyond this season?

 

As I said, he's playing names, not the players he has before him in 2013. And THAT's BAD MANAGEMENT. It's bad enough, that if he did it all season, I think I'd start looking for someone else to take the helm.

 

 

We had the same debate in 2011 when you could argue that Lillibridge or Viciedo could take AB's from Dunn...where the season felt lost and yet Ozzie kept trotting him out there.

 

The difference back then was the 3 1/2 years left on his contract, vs. 1 1/2 seasons now.

 

At some point, it's just a sunk cost and loss and you move on without worrying about protecting him, his feelings, his being a veteran or trying to build up ANY kind of trade value to get something back in return.

 

 

And yes, right now, Rios/Viciedo/Gillaspie are the three most consistently dangerous hitters in the line-up.

 

In fact, I remember Greg775 starting lots of conversations defending Ozzie (and Rongey) for leaving Dunn in the middle of line-up no matter what your eyes were telling you (which is that he was completely lost for the season).

 

 

[greg775]

I can't take seriously any team with a guy with a .153 batting average. I'm back to where I just wish we'd release the guy if he can't hit .210. For gawd's sakes ... 153??

 

And Caufield, the basic premise of my Dunn debate during the Ozzie years was I was saying he had to play him and not bench him because of his contract. You can't sit a guy making that kind of money. I guess I still feel that way, but years later I just wish the Sox would eat the contract and release him. He really is a disgrace to the game of baseball (hitting wise; I realize he's a good guy).

Edited May 29, 2013 by greg775

[RockRaines]

I can't take seriously any team with a guy with a .153 batting average. I'm back to where I just wish we'd release the guy if he can't hit .210. For gawd's sakes ... 153??

 

And Caufield, the basic premise of my Dunn debate during the Ozzie years was I was saying he had to play him and not bench him because of his contract. You can't sit a guy making that kind of money. I guess I still feel that way, but years later I just wish the Sox would eat the contract and release him. He really is a disgrace to the game of baseball (hitting wise; I realize he's a good guy).

Playing him over Konerko today was ridiculous. Konerko kills the Cubs and we throw Dunn who cant hit anyone in the lineup.

[caulfield12]

Playing him over Konerko today was ridiculous. Konerko kills the Cubs and we throw Dunn who cant hit anyone in the lineup.

 

There's an unwritten rule Dunn has to play against all RHP'ers, no matter what recent results or the eye test are telling you.

 

Career vs. Feldman

 

Dunn 1/7

Konerko 6/22 with 2 homers

 

But you play Dunn, of course. It would have made more sense to play Dunn in LF and Konerko at 1B, actually.

Edited May 29, 2013 by caulfield12