Where is Phegley?

[Marty34]

Yet you proposed making him our starting shortstop.

 

I think that was in reply to who would play SS. I don't care who plays SS if they can unload Ramirez contract. Point being is, it does not matter.

[Marty34]

If I had time, I'd go back and look for the exact quote, but IIRC he proposed releasing Alexei and playing Keppinger at SS. Win or lose, that ideas makes no sense IMO. Keppinger would be epically bad at SS and my guess is his frustrations would carry themselves into the batter's box. If you honestly think Kep is a stiff, then the idea should be to put him in position where he can succeed and potentially become tradable. That's not happening if you let him fail at SS on a regular basis. Also, if you plan on being bad, you might as well call up Carlos Sanchez and give him a shot at SS. Why waste innings on a guy who has 0% chance of being a long-term solution if you can attempt to develop a youngster?

 

As for Beckham, I agreed with your proposal. If he could prove to be even average at SS, in the event of a selloff/rebuilding, you would have a capable replacement for Alexei and would open up 2B which is a much easier position to fill. Maybe the chances of Beckham sticking at SS would be extremely low, but they have to better than Keppinger doing anything at the position.

 

The prospect crowd here would not stand for that.

[Chicago White Sox]

The prospect crowd here would not stand for that.

Stand for what?

[Marty34]

One thing to keep in mind when trading someone because you don't think their value will ever be higher. It is a 2 way street. The guy you get may have inflated value as well. If someone here said the Sox could trade Peavy for the 2011 version of Jesus Montero, a lot of posters would think that was great. It would have turned out horribly. Casto and Molina are a couple of guys who have declined in value as well.

The value that is most important is the value to the White Sox, and as long as the Sox are trying to win, trading Peavy will most likely backfire.

 

Marty's best deal available may not be available for a year or 2.

 

I don't see enough evidence that they are trying to win.

[Marty34]

Stand for what?

 

Calos Sanchez at short anytime this year.

[caulfield12]

I don't see enough evidence that they are trying to win.

 

 

If they had signed Greinke, AJ and Josh Hamilton, would we be in first place right now?

 

 

Probably not.

 

Would that not be enough sufficient evidence we were trying to win?

 

But then, when nobody was coming to the park because the team was STILL in 2nd or 3rd place and still trailing the Tigers and they were forced to trade off other contracts like Peavy, Thornton, Rios, Crain, Ramirez because the payroll couldn't be sustained in the face of diminished incoming revenues, etc., would you blame the fans or Reinsdorf/KW/Hahn?

Edited May 28, 2013 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

Calos Sanchez at short anytime this year.

 

 

If they do go into sell-off mode in July and one of those players traded/dumped is Ramirez, fans would be MORE upset if Keppinger was playing SS than Sanchez.

 

Because everyone knows he can't play that position. Sanchez MIGHT end up being a utility player instead of a starter, but the only way to find out is by playing him and determining what his limitations are. And he might not come into his own as a player until he's 23 or 24 or 25....or he could end up just as another version of Eduardo Escobar, we have no idea yet.

 

Otherwise, you're either forcing Beckham off 2nd....or you're really down to C and D options like Saladino/Semien at BIRM.

 

In all likelihood, one of those sell-off trades would bring in another SS prospect if they honestly felt Sanchez wasn't the future and they were more than likely going to shift him to 2B, with Beckham possibly gone as well if he didn't hit more than 625 or 650.

 

This team can survive with Beckham as their 7th-9th hitter playing Gold Glove defense and OPSing in the low 600's, but not without huge offensive output from other players...and not as part of their rebuilding plan.

[southsider2k5]

For no good reason really

 

on May 28 of their first full years as major leaguers...

 

Player A

Robin Ventura

.157 ba, .289 obp, .269 slg, .558 ops

Player B

Tyler Flowers

.198 ba, .271 obp, .339 slg, .610 ops

[Marty34]

For no good reason really

 

on May 28 of their first full years as major leaguers...

 

Player A

Robin Ventura

.157 ba, .289 obp, .269 slg, .558 ops

Player B

Tyler Flowers

.198 ba, .271 obp, .339 slg, .610 ops

 

Can I have the players ages?

[caulfield12]

Can I have the players ages?

 

 

Well, Robin Ventura was probably the most famous collegiate player selected in that draft...because of Oklahoma State's program, exposure from the College World Series, his long long hitting streak, high first rounder, etc.

 

It's hard to compare him to Phegley, who I'm sure about 85-90% of the White Sox fan-base doesn't even know exists yet unless they're paying close attention to Harrelson when he talks about the minor league results.

Edited May 29, 2013 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

Can I have the players ages?

Age means nothing when you talk about Viciedo.

[southsider2k5]

Can I have the players ages?

 

Two years younger than Josh Phegley

[southsider2k5]

Well, Robin Ventura was probably the most famous collegiate player selected in that draft...because of Oklahoma State's program, exposure from the College World Series, his long long hitting streak, high first rounder, etc.

 

It's hard to compare him to Phegley, who I'm sure about 85-90% of the White Sox fan-base doesn't even know exists yet unless they're paying close attention to Harrelson when he talks about the minor league results.

 

Pretty much no one knew who he was until this May.

[fathom]

Pretty much no one knew who he was until this May.

 

Which is why if he eventually gets called up and doesn't succeed, it's not a huge blow to the organization since he's been such a huge surprise this season. A month ago, we were all asking how would the Sox find a catcher for next season and his name was never mentioned.

[southsider2k5]

Which is why if he eventually gets called up and doesn't succeed, it's not a huge blow to the organization since he's been such a huge surprise this season. A month ago, we were all asking how would the Sox find a catcher for next season and his name was never mentioned.

 

Which is the biggest reason no one should be freaking out about him now. If he didn't have enough to make this organizations top 25 list before this season (and we all know how easy that was), there really isn't anything he could have changed in two months that would have turned him into a starting MLB caliber catcher, short of meeting Barry Bonds trainer.

[caulfield12]

Which is the biggest reason no one should be freaking out about him now. If he didn't have enough to make this organizations top 25 list before this season (and we all know how easy that was), there really isn't anything he could have changed in two months that would have turned him into a starting MLB caliber catcher, short of meeting Barry Bonds trainer.

 

 

He does have two arguments in his favor.

 

Relatively high draft pick, and the freakish illness...that sidelined him early in his career. And 25 isn't too old for a catcher who was drafted from university, it's probably more or less the average (24-26).

 

With the illnesses and injuries, just like Jared Mitchell, it would take a LOT for fans to have much faith in those guys again. So Phegley really has had to overcome a ton of skepticism to get back to "prospect" (not suspect) status.

 

[southsider2k5]

He does have two arguments in his favor.

 

Relatively high draft pick, and the freakish illness...that sidelined him early in his career. And 25 isn't too old for a catcher who was drafted from university, it's probably more or less the average (24-26).

 

With the illnesses and injuries, just like Jared Mitchell, it would take a LOT for fans to have much faith in those guys again. So Phegley really has had to overcome a ton of skepticism to get back to "prospect" (not suspect) status.

 

25 is young enough unless you are Cuban.

[The Ginger Kid]

For no good reason really

 

on May 28 of their first full years as major leaguers...

 

Player A

Robin Ventura

.157 ba, .289 obp, .269 slg, .558 ops

Player B

Tyler Flowers

.198 ba, .271 obp, .339 slg, .610 ops

Can you guess which one was named one of the greatest college hitters of all time?

[caulfield12]

Moore said a demotion to AAA Omaha is not in the offing for Moustakas (although for our purposes, it might as well be Tyler Flowers). For now, anyway.

 

“There are three basic processes that I challenge myself with when sending a player down,” Moore said. “Is this struggling player staying positive and working hard? Does the coaching staff remain positive in this struggling player? And do his teammates continue to rally around this struggling player?

 

“As long as those three things are occurring, it’s very difficult as a general manager to make a change. You’ve got to trust the people that you’ve hired to help this player get through it.

 

“But no doubt — there comes a point in time if a player continues to struggle and we think we need a mental break and one of those processes breaks down that you have to evaluate it. And then you want to next look at what’s the alternative.”

Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/2013/05/28/42612...l#storylink=cpy

[witesoxfan]

I think that was in reply to who would play SS. I don't care who plays SS if they can unload Ramirez contract. Point being is, it does not matter.

 

Ramirez has a very team friendly contract at this point in time. $7 mill this year, $9 mill next year, $10 mill in '15, $10 mill team option or a $1 mill buy out in 2016. He still has a ton of value, and if the Sox think that they will need to tear the team apart, he is going to be one of the most valuable trade pieces they have. They wouldn't "unload" that contract because there would be a ton of teams lining up to trade for him.

 

I strongly doubt they will tear the team apart, and I don't foresee Alexei playing elsewhere any time soon.

[caulfield12]

Ramirez has a very team friendly contract at this point in time. $7 mill this year, $9 mill next year, $10 mill in '15, $10 mill team option or a $1 mill buy out in 2016. He still has a ton of value, and if the Sox think that they will need to tear the team apart, he is going to be one of the most valuable trade pieces they have. They wouldn't "unload" that contract because there would be a ton of teams lining up to trade for him.

 

I strongly doubt they will tear the team apart, and I don't foresee Alexei playing elsewhere any time soon.

 

 

Let's say Reyes to the Blue Jays didn't materialize...you really believe they would have taken Alexei's contract obligations on and given us, let's say, Hechavarria straight up for him?

 

Just looking at his year over year declining OPS numbers (especially homers and XB hits), his age...his high error totals this year (part of that's on Ventura and by association, Hahn, for not being able to rest him), I just don't see that as being a sure thing that he's going to fetch a consensus Top 50 player back.

 

Cardinals, same thing...do you believe we could actually get Carpenter/Adams, etc., or would we be speculating on minor league pieces (and not one of their top cadre of minor league pitchers)?

Edited May 29, 2013 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

Let's say Reyes to the Blue Jays didn't materialize...you really believe they would have taken Alexei's contract obligations on and given us, let's say, Hechavarria straight up for him?

 

Just looking at his year over year declining OPS numbers (especially homers and XB hits), his age...his high error totals this year (part of that's on Ventura and by association, Hahn, for not being able to rest him), I just don't see that as being a sure thing that he's going to fetch a consensus Top 50 player back.

 

Cardinals, same thing...do you believe we could actually get Carpenter/Adams, etc., or would we be speculating on minor league pieces (and not one of their top cadre of minor league pitchers)?

What is the fascination posters have with downgrading the SS position? How does dumping Ramirez for zilch like Marty suggests or getting Hechavarria make the White Sox better now or in the long run?

[southsider2k5]

Let's say Reyes to the Blue Jays didn't materialize...you really believe they would have taken Alexei's contract obligations on and given us, let's say, Hechavarria straight up for him?

 

Just looking at his year over year declining OPS numbers (especially homers and XB hits), his age...his high error totals this year (part of that's on Ventura and by association, Hahn, for not being able to rest him), I just don't see that as being a sure thing that he's going to fetch a consensus Top 50 player back.

 

Cardinals, same thing...do you believe we could actually get Carpenter/Adams, etc., or would we be speculating on minor league pieces (and not one of their top cadre of minor league pitchers)?

 

Look at what Toronto did this winter, I could believe it.

[caulfield12]

What is the fascination posters have with downgrading the SS position? How does dumping Ramirez for zilch like Marty suggests or getting Hechavarria make the White Sox better now or in the long run?

 

 

If you can get a consensus Top 50 raw prospect back like Hechavarria for Alexei Ramirez, and the White Sox are 8-9-10 games back on July 15, I don't think any GM in the game wouldn't at least consider it.

 

Otherwise, I would agree that it's better to stand pat at that position and play it out longer with Peavy/Rios...or until Carlos Sanchez has become a legitimate replacement (or not) at 2B/SS. Finally, Gordon Beckham needs the next 2-3 months to show what he can do, too, so they can make a final determination on him.

 

 

[NorthSideSox72]

I'm a buyer on Phegley, I've considered him more highly than others the past couple years. And his biggest known weakness, abilities as a receiver, are in line with something Flowers isn't doing well anyway.

 

That said... just be prepared for the fact that Phegley will likely have an adjustment period in the majors too. If he comes up in June or July, I wouldn't expect him to produce a ton this year. More next year.

 

There is also the wildcard of handling the pitchers. This is something that Flowers has been noted to be good at, and I honestly haven't heard much one way or the other on Phegley.

 

So really... no reason to rush him up, and I agree with giving Flowers as much of a chance as possible. Once we get through June though, depending on how the team is doing, it might be time.