Dunn?

[Eminor3rd]

Except Dunn and Danks are still looming over our future VERY MUCH the next 1 1/2 years.

 

Looking around the rest of the AL Central, there isn't a single contract worse than Dunn's or one riskier than Danks, although I'm sure Verlander, Mauer and Fielder will draw some arguments.

 

KW also left the farm system in much worse shape than when he became a GM.

 

The question is how much further we need to fall before there's light at the end of the tunnel?

 

There are also legitimate concerns about Alexei Ramirez's contract, maybe not this season, but in the next couple of years. Not to mention Viciedo's worrisome OPS against RHP and the future of the catching position.

 

We can get rid of Beckham and Flowers and DeAza, but then we still have to replace them, and none of those candidates exist inside our system AND are ready to make an impact in the next 2-3-4 months.

 

 

Finally, we're left with pretty much no assets to trade that won't cripple this year's team...except for maybe Erik Johnson.

 

So not sure if lucky would be the word I would use...having had to discount tickets this year to get roughly the same amount of attendance and inevitably behind last year's tv ratings as well.

 

Another season like 2011 isn't going to be fun for anyone.

 

Danks is the bad contract. Dunn is a sunk cost but it's only one more year. Alexei's is fine for an average SS. Hahn will have plenty of money to spend with Rios/Peavy/Konerko gone.

[Marty34]

KW gets blame for the Dunn signing, because he let Ozzie run the asylum. There was zero reason that Mark Kotsay should have been an everyday player, yet KW let Ozzie make the decision. In turn, the Sox didn't keep Thome, who killed them in Minnesota, and they panicked in need for a slugging lefty in the middle of the order and signed Dunn.

 

Ok, but Guillen is the biggest reason Freddy Garcia was traded to the Sox. Win some, lose some, but w/o Garcia no WS.

[The Ultimate Champion]

KW gets blame for the Dunn signing, because he let Ozzie run the asylum. There was zero reason that Mark Kotsay should have been an everyday player, yet KW let Ozzie make the decision. In turn, the Sox didn't keep Thome, who killed them in Minnesota, and they panicked in need for a slugging lefty in the middle of the order and signed Dunn.

I think history has proven at this point that JR was stepping in and giving Ozzie power directly to try and resolve that situation. Kenny acquired Pierre for zero reason, put Kotsay in as the DH, and completely stepped away from the picture and let Ozzie answer the media's Thome questions. JR should have let Kenny fire Ozzie when he wanted to, he should have let Kenny construct the lineup he wanted to, basically he should have let Kenny do the job he hired him to do.

 

JR authorized the future bad contracts & he stopped his GM from being a GM. What do you do? This organization has been run idiotically at multiple levels for a long time, however, we did at one time have an excellent GM who, if not for such extreme personal loyalty, could go to another less idiotic organization and prove his worth yet again.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Ok, but Guillen is the biggest reason Freddy Garcia was traded to the Sox. Win some, lose some, but w/o Garcia no WS.

Right, and that was before Ozzie's ego grew to the point where it swallowed everything around him. Ozzie's 2 things he could do well that actually had to do with the game of baseball and not media relationships were manage a pitching staff & get the clubhouse to play for him. He lost the entire team & decided to make an enemy of one of (if not the) best pitching coaches in baseball. Ozzie went down the tank on his own, and JR very stupidly tried to save him when he was a lost cause. Who else can have his bastard little b**** son time after time go on social media & bury players, the organization, drafting philosophy of not taking your s***ty brother early enough, etc. without repercussions? Ozzie was a useful person who turned into a massive mistake, in large part due to the Reinsdorf loyalty leash. Anyone blaming KW for not making moves he couldn't get the power to make isn't lbeing fair. If Reinsdorf decides some idiot in the FO somewhere (who we maybe don't even know about) is too black & white at heart to lose his job then Rick Hahn, whether you like him or not, is also going to have to work around his presence.

[Steve9347]

Right, and that was before Ozzie's ego grew to the point where it swallowed everything around him. Ozzie's 2 things he could do well that actually had to do with the game of baseball and not media relationships were manage a pitching staff & get the clubhouse to play for him. He lost the entire team & decided to make an enemy of one of (if not the) best pitching coaches in baseball. Ozzie went down the tank on his own, and JR very stupidly tried to save him when he was a lost cause. Who else can have his bastard little b**** son time after time go on social media & bury players, the organization, drafting philosophy of not taking your s***ty brother early enough, etc. without repercussions? Ozzie was a useful person who turned into a massive mistake, in large part due to the Reinsdorf loyalty leash. Anyone blaming KW for not making moves he couldn't get the power to make isn't lbeing fair. If Reinsdorf decides some idiot in the FO somewhere (who we maybe don't even know about) is too black & white at heart to lose his job then Rick Hahn, whether you like him or not, is also going to have to work around his presence.

You mean fully rely on Don Cooper to manage the pitching staff. Ozzie delegated well in the early seasons.

[The Ultimate Champion]

You mean fully rely on Don Cooper to manage the pitching staff. Ozzie delegated well in the early seasons.

Right. He let Coop do his thing. Ozzie challenged the starters (what he did with Garland specifically is one of the biggest reasons we won all those games that year & took a WS) and he did pretty well with what was given to him re: the bullpen. Then he apparently decided he was an elite manager in baseball, and you could tell it kind of with reverse psychology, how Ozzie in interviews would always name Tony LaRussa & Bobby Cox over and over and talk about how he wasn't at that level but that was where he aspired to be - and I think the goal there was to make you put Ozzie in that conversation. But Ozzie was a one-hit wonder, whose great knowledge of the game in the end paled in comparison to his greater lack of self control.

[Jerksticks]

I also think we need to be fair to JR because he was basically dealing with his two sons of the White Sox, KW and OG. I can't imagine how difficult that was for him. He probably sided with Ozzie's ideas because he ultimately thought KW to be the smarter and more valuable of the two moving forward. Maybe he realized Ozzie was poison and the "nicest way" of dismissing him, without stepping on his huge fragile ego, was to let him self-destruct. All speculation obviously.

 

What really sucks is that if players like Tank, Flowers, Dunn and Beckham were half as good as KW projected we'd be a powerhouse.

[The Ultimate Champion]

I also think we need to be fair to JR because he was basically dealing with his two sons of the White Sox, KW and OG. I can't imagine how difficult that was for him. He probably sided with Ozzie's ideas because he ultimately thought KW to be the smarter and more valuable of the two moving forward. Maybe he realized Ozzie was poison and the "nicest way" of dismissing him, without stepping on his huge fragile ego, was to let him self-destruct. All speculation obviously.

 

What really sucks is that if players like Tank, Flowers, Dunn and Beckham were half as good as KW projected we'd be a powerhouse.

Agree with this. JR is constantly referred to as such a great & loyal owner over and over, but the downside of that is falling in love with personnel who aren't doing their jobs. He doesn't want to can someone he'd consider a personal friend if it isn't absolutely necessary, and I'm sure the KW-Ozzie squabbles were hard on him, he's not a bad guy, but in the end yuou need to be able to make those tough decisions, and you need to make them on time. JR made the right call but far too late4.

[Balta1701]

Agree with this. JR is constantly referred to as such a great & loyal owner over and over, but the downside of that is falling in love with personnel who aren't doing their jobs. He doesn't want to can someone he'd consider a personal friend if it isn't absolutely necessary, and I'm sure the KW-Ozzie squabbles were hard on him, he's not a bad guy, but in the end yuou need to be able to make those tough decisions, and you need to make them on time. JR made the right call but far too late4.

JR never really made a call to fire either of them, honestly. The writing was on the wall, but Guillen had already left of his own accord to sign a rich contract that he was negotiating while still managing the White Sox.

[Steve9347]

JR never really made a call to fire either of them, honestly. The writing was on the wall, but Guillen had already left of his own accord to sign a rich contract that he was negotiating while still managing the White Sox.

This fact somehow seems to escape so many people around here. It's fascinating.

[kitekrazy]

This fact somehow seems to escape so many people around here. It's fascinating.

 

I wish we could also stop rehashing the past about this.

 

[Balta1701]

I wish we could also stop rehashing the past about this.

Eventually we will, but the decisions made before the 2011 season are still hurting us right now.

[The Ultimate Champion]

JR never really made a call to fire either of them, honestly. The writing was on the wall, but Guillen had already left of his own accord to sign a rich contract that he was negotiating while still managing the White Sox.

He chose Kenny. During that whole period where Ozzie was demanding a contract extension they had a meeting IIRC, and the Ozzie deal was done at that point, just on delay until the end of the season. Ozzie wanted to stay but only if Kenny was gone, and JR chose KW by not giving Ozzie his extension and granting all his wishes. But I do agree with your main point though, JR waffled on that way too long, and just kind of sat around and waited for someone else to make the decision for him. JR I think is a good owner, not bashing him, but that wasn't good ownership on his part, nor good management in general. He should have went with Kenny or neither, but the Ozzie decision was easy as pie and yet he couldn't make it.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Eventually we will, but the decisions made before the 2011 season are still hurting us right now.

Agree, but I'd still argue that the Wilder fiasco and the way of spending under the old CBA are hurting us far, far more than any player currently under contract to this team, especially Dunn who if nothing else has answered a question through his play and shown us that we need a DH. We don't have anyone to call up to fill a major hole on the position side, but neither do we really have any prospects to trade for MLB players in the arb or pre-arb stage to fill those holes.

[LittleHurt05]

Ok, but Guillen is the biggest reason Freddy Garcia was traded to the Sox. Win some, lose some, but w/o Garcia no WS.

 

How so? I don't remember Freddy having a no trade clause that he only waved for the White Sox because of Ozzie.

[Steve9347]

How so? I don't remember Freddy having a no trade clause that he only waved for the White Sox because of Ozzie.

Many believe that Freddy signed an extension with the White Sox due to being related to Guillen by marriage.

[The Ultimate Champion]

How so? I don't remember Freddy having a no trade clause that he only waved for the White Sox because of Ozzie.

Freddy is the husband of Ozzie's cousin, or something like that. Freddy knew the Sox wanted him, Freddy wanted to be here, the Sox knew it, and it was decided that should the trade come to fruition it was extremely likely that Freddy would sign an extension with us. We were dealing with family basically. It's hard to imagine the Sox surrendering a package that large for a rent-a-player, and it's hard to imagine a SP with Freddy's stuff (at the time) taking a discount and foregoing a huge FA payday under other circumstances.

 

 

 

[LittleHurt05]

Many believe that Freddy signed an extension with the White Sox due to being related to Guillen by marriage.

 

 

Freddy is the husband of Ozzie's cousin, or something like that. Freddy knew the Sox wanted him, Freddy wanted to be here, the Sox knew it, and it was decided that should the trade come to fruition it was extremely likely that Freddy would sign an extension with us. We were dealing with family basically. It's hard to imagine the Sox surrendering a package that large for a rent-a-player, and it's hard to imagine a SP with Freddy's stuff (at the time) taking a discount and foregoing a huge FA payday under other circumstances.

 

Thanks. I forgot about the whole extension part of it. I knew about the family stuff, but I didn't see how that directly led to a trade.

[greg775]

How did this Dunn thread turn into a bash fest of my favorite Sox player and skipper of all time, Ozzie Guillen?

 

I'll try to get it back on track by saying ... please White Sox, just release Adam Dunn.

[Balta1701]

How did this Dunn thread turn into a bash fest of my favorite Sox player and skipper of all time, Ozzie Guillen?

 

I'll try to get it back on track by saying ... please White Sox, just release Adam Dunn.

I bet if you offered to pay the $23 million he's still owed the Sox would happily oblige.

[Eminor3rd]

How did this Dunn thread turn into a bash fest of my favorite Sox player and skipper of all time, Ozzie Guillen?

 

I'll try to get it back on track by saying ... please White Sox, just release Adam Dunn.

 

Why? Why pay him not to play? Who needs those ABs?

[LittleHurt05]

How did this Dunn thread turn into a bash fest of my favorite Sox player and skipper of all time, Ozzie Guillen?

 

I'll try to get it back on track by saying ... please White Sox, just release Adam Dunn.

 

If your favorite Sox player and skipper of all time didn't have a man-crush on Mark Kotsay and his "ability" to play miltiple positions, Adam Dunn would have never become a member of the White Sox.

[cabiness42]

Dunn has a .633 OPS and is signed through 2014.

Konerko has a .661 OPS and is signed through 2013.

 

If you're going to release/trade anybody, Konerko is the first one to go, but like others have said, the Sox don't have any significant talent in the minors that is going to make the Sox better in 2014-16 by getting more playing time in 2013. If you really have an outfielder you want to look at, stick him in LF, let Viciedo DH, and make Konerko/Dunn a 1B platoon.

[Balta1701]

Dunn has a .633 OPS and is signed through 2014.

Konerko has a .661 OPS and is signed through 2013.

 

If you're going to release/trade anybody, Konerko is the first one to go, but like others have said, the Sox don't have any significant talent in the minors that is going to make the Sox better in 2014-16 by getting more playing time in 2013. If you really have an outfielder you want to look at, stick him in LF, let Viciedo DH, and make Konerko/Dunn a 1B platoon.

None of the White Sox young OF's are anywhere close to deserving of a look as a starter right now.

[Jerksticks]

Why? Why pay him not to play? Who needs those ABs?

 

Assuming Beckham doesn't lead us to the WS, how about Jordan Danks? I know it's been trendy to be down on him since he didn't blossom at age 23 or whatever, and I had kinda written him off as well, but the dude quietly tore up AAA the last two years. Well "tore up" is subjective but he's added a tool to his game he never possessed- plate discipline and walking. His slugging isn't ideal but CF is one place we need to shore up the defense and where his light slugging can play. Dude has seriously put in his time and earned a look.

 

Let De Aza and Kepp take DH til we see what we have. Can't do any of this s*** with Dunn around though.