Dunn?

[LittleHurt05]

That Felix Hernandez is such a loser, 9 seasons, 0 playoff appearances, it's obviously all his fault.

[Steve9347]

Hell of a thread, guys. Hell of a thread.

[balfanman]

Ernie Banks, Ron Santo, heck name most any Cub star, Bill Melton, Wilbur Wood and several other Sox stars never played in the post season to the best of my knowledge. Im sure other teams have star players as well in their history that never played in the post season. Are they all losers?

 

Guys like Goose Gossage never played in the post season either until he went somewhere with a team around him. Is he a loser?

 

Walter Payton never played in the post season until the Bears put a team around him. Was he a loser too?

 

Just my 2 cents.

[Y2Jimmy0]

.800 OPS can kiss my ass if your batting .200 and striking out over 200 times.

 

There is something telling when a player puts up his best seasons when a team is in last place, and when a team is in contention he's nowhere to be found. Some guys are winners and some guys are losers, and the fact Dunn has never appeared in one post season game, is very un-clutch and does most of his damage in non-pressure situations, I'm sorry, the guy is a loser on the baseball field.

 

Again, if surrounded by the right people in the right situation, sure Dunn could be a productive player for a contender. But he is being paid to be the guy, and he's never been the guy with the white sox until this past June when the Sox fell into the laughingstock of the league.

 

Also, I never once said he was the main reason. All I said there was something to be seen and it might be more than 100% coincidental and bad luck.

 

 

This is one of the stupidest things I have ever read on this site. An .800 ops is an .800 ops. He is not being paid to be the guy either. He's being paid to hit a s***load of homers and walk a lot. Clutch is bulls*** by the way. It is a myth.

[Chicago White Sox]

This is one of the stupidest things I have ever read on this site. An .800 ops is an .800 ops. He is not being paid to be the guy either. He's being paid to hit a s***load of homers and walk a lot. Clutch is bulls*** by the way. It is a myth.

Gotta disagree with you here. Not all OPSs are equal IMO. If two guys have equal OPS, I'll always take the guy who has the higher OBP rather than SLG.

 

Also, walking a lot is great, but when you hit .200, it's going to be tough to get that OBP above .305, which is exactly what's happened this year for Dunn.

[Dick Allen]

Then you are ignorant and there's no point in discussing this.

 

Robin Yount played in the postseason only twice during his illustrious 20 year career. Is he a loser? On the contrary, David Eckstein played for in the postseason 4 times and won 2 World Series rings, which quite clearly qualifies him as a winner, correct?

 

That Dunn has played on last place teams is circumstantial and has little to do with him.

 

Oh, and BTW, this "he hasn't been the man until this June" is BS too, unless you, for whatever reason, consider the .953 OPS on June 16th of last year chopped liver. He fell of precipitously after that, as I have mentioned, but he was an incredibly valuable player for the first half of last year and, due to injury and whatever else, fell off in the second half like everyone else on the team.

Gale Sayers and Dick Butkus never played in a playoff game. Losers.

[Paulstar]

This is one of the stupidest things I have ever read on this site. An .800 ops is an .800 ops. He is not being paid to be the guy either. He's being paid to hit a s***load of homers and walk a lot. Clutch is bulls*** by the way. It is a myth.

If clutch was a myth, Joe Crede would not be one of the most celebrated members of that 2005 White Sox team. Yogi Berra wouldn't be a hall of famer and one of the most beloved Yankees of all time if it wasn't for his clutch hitting.

 

I understand you are sabr guy and all into stats, so it would be easy for you to be shocked by me not viewing an .800 OPS as good. But for you to completely deny the idea of clutch hitting? Who's the one saying stupid things now?

 

And by the way, I don't really care about OPS, or mainly OBP, when it comes to 3-4-5 hitters. To me, I look at AVG, SLG, extra base hits, RBIs, and their stats with runners in scoring position and late/close situations. You don't need your number 3 hitter up looking to walk like Dunn does so much, you need him up there driving in runs.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Paulstar

[Dick Allen]

If clutch was a myth, Joe Crede would not be one of the most celebrated members of that 2005 White Sox team. Yogi Berra wouldn't be a hall of famer and one of the most beloved Yankees of all time if it wasn't for his clutch hitting.

 

I understand you are sabr guy and all into stats, so it would be easy for you to be shocked by me not viewing an .800 OPS as good. But for you to completely deny the idea of clutch hitting? Who's the one saying stupid things now?

 

And by the way, I don't really care about OPS, or mainly OBP, when it comes to 3-4-5 hitters. To me, I look at AVG, SLG, extra base hits, RBIs, and their stats with runners in scoring position and late/close situations. You don't need your number 3 hitter up looking to walk like Dunn does so much, you need him up there driving in runs.

Dunn is 9th in the AL in RBI. So if driving in runs is what he needs to be doing, there are only 8 guys in the AL driving in more. He isn't worth what he is being paid, but he has been pretty decent lately, and he has produced runs both last year and this.

 

Also, Dunn isn't hitting 3rd. You must have hated Frank Thomas batting third walking more than Dunn.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Dick Allen

[Balta1701]

You don't need your number 3 hitter up looking to walk like Dunn does so much, you need him up there driving in runs.

So if someone posted Adam Dunn's RBI numbers the last 2 years you'd be content?

[Eminor3rd]

Gotta disagree with you here. Not all OPSs are equal IMO. If two guys have equal OPS, I'll always take the guy who has the higher OBP rather than SLG.

 

Also, walking a lot is great, but when you hit .200, it's going to be tough to get that OBP above .305, which is exactly what's happened this year for Dunn.

 

OPS is bad anyway. Use wOBA.

[Eminor3rd]

And by the way, I don't really care about OPS, or mainly OBP, when it comes to 3-4-5 hitters. To me, I look at AVG, SLG, extra base hits, RBIs, and their stats with runners in scoring position and late/close situations. You don't need your number 3 hitter up looking to walk like Dunn does so much, you need him up there driving in runs.

 

Walks are a by-product of a good plate approach in which the hitter swings at good pitches and takes bad pitches. No one LOOKS to walk. But they have to accept a walk, because if they don't then pitchers never have to give them good pitches to hit. For the LIFE of me, I don't understand why people cannot grasp this.

[Paulstar]

Then you are ignorant and there's no point in discussing this.

 

Robin Yount played in the postseason only twice during his illustrious 20 year career. Is he a loser? On the contrary, David Eckstein played for in the postseason 4 times and won 2 World Series rings, which quite clearly qualifies him as a winner, correct?

 

That Dunn has played on last place teams is circumstantial and has little to do with him.

 

Oh, and BTW, this "he hasn't been the man until this June" is BS too, unless you, for whatever reason, consider the .953 OPS on June 16th of last year chopped liver. He fell of precipitously after that, as I have mentioned, but he was an incredibly valuable player for the first half of last year and, due to injury and whatever else, fell off in the second half like everyone else on the team.

Not every situation is the same, and I never said that all players who don't play on winning teams are losers on the baseball field, but I guess the argument of putting words in other peoples mouths is a common one here. I just said with Dunn, the way I see it, he is a loser, or at least in the situation where he is paid to be your top hitter and the main guy on your offense.

 

Dunn, ever since he was done with arbitration, has been either the highest paid hitter on the team, or close to it. You pay who you think is the centerpiece of your offense the most, unless you got an awesome young phenom who won't be paid the most for a couple years. For a middle of the order bat, someone who is supposed to be one of your top guys, to strikeout as much as Dunn, be as bad as him in late/clutch situations, and pile that on top of the fact that he is known for producing most when the games don't matter, I just think that is a losing baseball player.

[Paulstar]

Walks are a by-product of a good plate approach in which the hitter swings at good pitches and takes bad pitches. No one LOOKS to walk. But they have to accept a walk, because if they don't then pitchers never have to give them good pitches to hit. For the LIFE of me, I don't understand why people cannot grasp this.

I completely understand plate discipline. So you are telling me all the times Dunn has had a full count and let a pitch go right down the middle for strike three, he was practicing good plate discipline? I tend to think he was sitting dead red for a pitch to hit for a home run, and if he didn't get it, he was hoping for a walk, which is a terrible approach, in my opinion.

[Balta1701]

be as bad as him in late/clutch situations, and pile that on top of the fact that he is known for producing most when the games don't matter, I just think that is a losing baseball player.

REPEATING THINGS DOES NOT MAKE THEM TRUE.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Swisher seemed to look to walk a lot when he was with us. I think that's an example of a lot of things though, mainly just being a b****. He has a high b****%.

[The Ultimate Champion]

REPEATING THINGS DOES NOT MAKE THEM TRUE.

Say that 10 more times & I will believe it.

[Paulstar]

REPEATING THINGS DOES NOT MAKE THEM TRUE.

Its just my opinion, thats why I said I think. Sorry that my opinion offends you so much

[Paulstar]

Dunn is 9th in the AL in RBI. So if driving in runs is what he needs to be doing, there are only 8 guys in the AL driving in more. He isn't worth what he is being paid, but he has been pretty decent lately, and he has produced runs both last year and this.

 

Also, Dunn isn't hitting 3rd. You must have hated Frank Thomas batting third walking more than Dunn.

Couple questions...

 

When did I ever say there was anything wrongbwith Dunn's production this year?

 

Also, when did I limit this discussion to solely jumber 3 hitters?

 

And finally, when did I say taking walks was bad? I said looking for walks isnt good, and I said I could care less about OBP when looking at hitters who's job is to drive in runs.

[Eminor3rd]

I completely understand plate discipline. So you are telling me all the times Dunn has had a full count and let a pitch go right down the middle for strike three, he was practicing good plate discipline? I tend to think he was sitting dead red for a pitch to hit for a home run, and if he didn't get it, he was hoping for a walk, which is a terrible approach, in my opinion.

 

What piece of information do you have that leads you to believe that's the case? Because in the absence of evidence to the contrary, I tend to believe that people will act in their best interests -- so I would assume Dunn would want to do the thing that would make him successful.

[witesoxfan]

Its just my opinion, thats why I said I think. Sorry that my opinion offends you so much

 

Except that there is sufficient evidence - August and September with Arizona and the first half of the season last year - to prove that your primary theory or opinion - that Dunn only produces when his teams are, for lack of a better term, fistf***ed - is wrong. Opinions can be wrong when there is proof to the contrary.

 

If you want to believe Dunn is a loser, that's fine, I have nothing against that. I don't believe it to be true, but we're entitled to our opinions on that.

[Paulstar]

Except that there is sufficient evidence - August and September with Arizona and the first half of the season last year - to prove that your primary theory or opinion - that Dunn only produces when his teams are, for lack of a better term, fistf***ed - is wrong. Opinions can be wrong when there is proof to the contrary.

 

If you want to believe Dunn is a loser, that's fine, I have nothing against that. I don't believe it to be true, but we're entitled to our opinions on that.

I wouldn't call that sufficient proof, but rather an argument opposite my argument. I do not recall watching Dunn in 2008 when he was with the D-Backs, but he was a big time mid-season acquisition for a team in the heat in contention, and the Diamondbacks wound up going 22-22 with Dunn, two wins away from making the playoffs (or at least game 163). It would be really interesting to hear some Diamondbacks fans opinion on him during that 44 game stretch.

 

As for last year, he did aid to the hot start, but he started to fall off right around the same time when the Sox surprised the whole league and were in first place. He played his best when nothing was expected of the Sox. Was it injuries, another reason, or was it that he does not preform when the pressure picks up?

[Paulstar]

What piece of information do you have that leads you to believe that's the case? Because in the absence of evidence to the contrary, I tend to believe that people will act in their best interests -- so I would assume Dunn would want to do the thing that would make him successful.

You don't walk over 100 times and strikeout 1/3 of the time by having great discipline. You do it exactly like Dunn does and being extremely selective. Obviously to walk as much as he does requires a level of plate discipline, but from what I have seen (I don't believe you need stats to backup everything you think if you have actually had a chance to see the player everyday for the past 2 1/2 years) he sits dead red for a pitch to hit out of the park, and if recognize early that it is not his pitch, he lets it go. The walks come by him being such a threat to hit a home run that pitchers are careful to avoid leaving anything out over the plate that he can hit out of the park.

 

And him focusing on home runs and walking has certainly been in his best interest because it has made him a lot of money. The question though is if his style of play in the best interest of the team? I'd say possibly if he wasn't relied on to be the top hitter of the team.

[Eminor3rd]

You don't walk over 100 times and strikeout 1/3 of the time by having great discipline. You do it exactly like Dunn does and being extremely selective. Obviously to walk as much as he does requires a level of plate discipline, but from what I have seen (I don't believe you need stats to backup everything you think if you have actually had a chance to see the player everyday for the past 2 1/2 years) he sits dead red for a pitch to hit out of the park, and if recognize early that it is not his pitch, he lets it go. The walks come by him being such a threat to hit a home run that pitchers are careful to avoid leaving anything out over the plate that he can hit out of the park.

 

And him focusing on home runs and walking has certainly been in his best interest because it has made him a lot of money. The question though is if his style of play in the best interest of the team? I'd say possibly if he wasn't relied on to be the top hitter of the team.

 

The bolded line above seems like a contradiction to me. Are you suggesting that he would have better plate discipline if he was more willing to swing at pitches that are harder to hit?

 

And what does this have to do with him being a losing ballplayer who makes his team worse around him? There's nothing wrong with you questioning whether or not his skill set is a good fit for this team, but that's not what you said said before.

[lasttriptotulsa]

I wouldn't call that sufficient proof, but rather an argument opposite my argument. I do not recall watching Dunn in 2008 when he was with the D-Backs, but he was a big time mid-season acquisition for a team in the heat in contention, and the Diamondbacks wound up going 22-22 with Dunn, two wins away from making the playoffs (or at least game 163). It would be really interesting to hear some Diamondbacks fans opinion on him during that 44 game stretch.

 

As for last year, he did aid to the hot start, but he started to fall off right around the same time when the Sox surprised the whole league and were in first place. He played his best when nothing was expected of the Sox. Was it injuries, another reason, or was it that he does not preform when the pressure picks up?

 

It was well documented that it was injuries. He missed quite a few games towards the end of the year. He had the same back problem that plagued him at the start of this year. You are seriously starting to sound like Hawk with this completely discounting stats in favor of your opinion of a players will to win attitude you have. Before he came to the Sox, Dunn was a .900 OPS player. Seriously what the hell more do you want from the guy. Somebody already posted his low, medium and high leverage stats and they are pretty damn close to being identical. Is this not enough for you? No team has ever missed the playoffs because he is a "losing" player. This assertion is just ridiculous. When Dunn was with the Reds, he was a HOF type player that played on a garbage team. So give it a f***ing rest.

 

[witesoxfan]

I wouldn't call that sufficient proof, but rather an argument opposite my argument. I do not recall watching Dunn in 2008 when he was with the D-Backs, but he was a big time mid-season acquisition for a team in the heat in contention, and the Diamondbacks wound up going 22-22 with Dunn, two wins away from making the playoffs (or at least game 163). It would be really interesting to hear some Diamondbacks fans opinion on him during that 44 game stretch.

 

As for last year, he did aid to the hot start, but he started to fall off right around the same time when the Sox surprised the whole league and were in first place. He played his best when nothing was expected of the Sox. Was it injuries, another reason, or was it that he does not preform when the pressure picks up?

 

His numbers with the Diamondbacks included an .889 OPS. He hit homers, got on base, and increased the team's productivity in general. It's not his fault they went 22-22.

 

Regarding last year, there were talks of him being hurt during the entire second half.

 

Anyways, this is the last I'm talking about this, I obviously completely disagree with you and really, I think you're fighting your own battle here.