Roster Changes Coming?

[caulfield12]

Buck, Hundley, Corey Hart, Carlos Pena, Weeks, Schierholtz, Morse, Bay, Ibanez, Quentin, Soriano, Melky Cabrera, Kendrys Morales, Adam Lind.

 

There's a list of players that could be helpful for this season or next season if we don't or can't get SoxTalk versions of Trout/Harper/Machado back in return in any trades that might be made.

 

At least we could field a respectable team around .500, if the F.O. prefers that to bottoming out completely. Some would of course argue that adding most of these veteran players (with the exception of Morales and maybe Buck) wouldn't come close to making us competitive and would only make things worse by blocking players who will be part of the next White Sox playoff or World Series team.

 

However, if you stuck Buck or Hundley at catcher, Dunn/Viciedo at DH, picked up one of those LFer's and got a real offensive spark out of him and Konerko got going in one last hurrah...there are definitely arguments to be made you could still get back into the race THIS SEASON.

 

Then the question becomes who are we willing to trade for those pieces? And some of them would be just salary/payroll additions.

Edited June 3, 2013 by caulfield12

[NorthSideSox72]

Only the Peavy extension.

 

And Sale, although if he doesn't get hurt, that's just great arbitrage, when there's a decent likelihood he'll outperform that deal by $70-110 million based on sabermetric values.

 

But you could also say that bringing back Floyd (there's another move about contending now) and Peavy was spinning them off for future assets at some point as Plan B, with the idea all along they were in-between as an organization in terms of being able to compete these two seasons.

 

I don't think the bolded word means what you think it means. This isn't arbitrage. It is a hedge, or speculation, or some of both... but not arbitrage.

 

[southsider2k5]

I don't think the bolded word means what you think it means. This isn't arbitrage. It is a hedge, or speculation, or some of both... but not arbitrage.

 

Busted.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

http://www.suntimes.com/m/20501006-773/ven...vidual-sox.html Kusnyer says this team is a little too nice. Parent said it’s a little too subdued.“You look at some of the teams we’re playing, and there’s a little excitement,’’ Parent said.

 

“It’s not overrated,’’ Ventura said. “It can zap you when you go through stretches like this. You have to find a way to get it.’’

The team has been a little too nice and too subdued because that's the kind of players the Sox have. What they need are some so-called "assholes" like AJ and Carl Everett. These were the true leaders on the field and in the clubhouse.

 

Making a guy like Paul Konerko the Captain was a big mistake. First of all he never even wanted the title. Also he's not the type of guy that will get in a teammate's face when they are being lackadaisical or when they don't have their heads in the game. Maybe guys like AJ and Carl irritated their teammates from time to time but they provided the team with a little edge. Maybe Konerko was given the title of Captain just out of respect for the way he approached his job or maybe he was supposed to be a counter to the manic Ozzie. But with the subdued Ventura as manager and the lack of any on field leaders like AJ or Carl it's no surprise that the team lacks energy and focus.

Edited June 3, 2013 by South Side Fireworks Man

[Balta1701]

The team has been a little too nice and too subdued because that's the kind of players the Sox have. What they need are some so-called "assholes" like AJ and Carl Everett. These were the true leaders on the field and in the clubhouse.

 

Making a guy like Paul Konerko the Captain was a big mistake. First of all he never even wanted the title. Also he's not the type of guy that will get in a teammate's face when they are being lackadaisical or when they don't have their heads in the game. Maybe guys like AJ and Carl irritated their teammates from time to time but they provided the team with a little edge. Maybe Konerko was given the title of Captain just out of respect for the way he approached his job or maybe he was supposed to be a counter to the manic Ozzie. But with the subdued Ventura as manager and the lack of any on field leaders like AJ or Carl it's no surprise that the team lacks energy and focus.

This team appeared lackadasical and out of it many, many times with AJ Pierzynski on the roster. (See: 2011, for example).

[winninguglyin83]

looks like the same lineup to me -- other than #15.

[The Ginger Kid]

Parent is echoing what Frank was saying the other day and it seems to be directed at De Aza: stop trying to be a home run hitter and start hitting the ball on the ground. Even DJ brought it up. I think he's ripe for a trip to Charlotte to get his head on straight.

Edited June 3, 2013 by The Ginger Kid

[South Side Fireworks Man]

This team appeared lackadasical and out of it many, many times with AJ Pierzynski on the roster. (See: 2011, for example).

Not this bad. This is the worst I can remember the Sox looking in many many years. The Sox have had times in recent years that they just couldn't score runs due to poor situational hitting and a poor approach at the plate, but this team looks dead and is playing extremely poorly in almost all facets of the game, especially with the mental as well as physical errors and the complete lack of energy. This team is boring to watch.

 

Edit: Plus, I blame a lot at the end of 2011 on the cancer Ozzie and his family were on team moral.

Edited June 3, 2013 by South Side Fireworks Man

[caulfield12]

I don't think the bolded word means what you think it means. This isn't arbitrage. It is a hedge, or speculation, or some of both... but not arbitrage.

 

 

 

 

It's when you make a move paying less for an asset than its "real" or true corresponding worth, and, simultaneously are selling high on other pieces (be they stocks, baseball cards or real players)...increasing the overall net asset value of your organization.

 

For example, Soptic for Gillaspie. Getting Peavy and Sale for much less than market value. Or Freddy Garcia's extension, whatever. Or leveraging our relationships with Cuban agents to get Ramirez and Viciedo (but missing on Cespedes, Soler and Puig).

 

The problem is that we've been both buying high (Dunn, Teahen, Keppinger, Edwin Jackson, Swisher) and selling low (Jackson, Swisher, Santos, Quentin) on most of our assets over the last 2-3 years.

 

For example, if we would have picked up DeAza for nothing and turned him into an even younger player with even more ability and saved money on years 5 & 6 of his arbitration eligibility, which is unlikely to happen now. Selling a player one year too early is almost always better than one year too late.

Edited June 3, 2013 by caulfield12

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

The team has been a little too nice and too subdued because that's the kind of players the Sox have. What they need are some so-called "assholes" like AJ and Carl Everett. These were the true leaders on the field and in the clubhouse.

 

Making a guy like Paul Konerko the Captain was a big mistake. First of all he never even wanted the title. Also he's not the type of guy that will get in a teammate's face when they are being lackadaisical or when they don't have their heads in the game. Maybe guys like AJ and Carl irritated their teammates from time to time but they provided the team with a little edge. Maybe Konerko was given the title of Captain just out of respect for the way he approached his job or maybe he was supposed to be a counter to the manic Ozzie. But with the subdued Ventura as manager and the lack of any on field leaders like AJ or Carl it's no surprise that the team lacks energy and focus.

Ventura is the leader and the team reflects his laid back attitude. If there was ever a time to be thrown out of a game it was that missed call at 1st base by Angel Hernandez. Ventura argued some but should've got tossed. Sveum got tossed arguing the same type play and it didn't immediately cost the Cubs a victory as the Sox situation did. When your team is losing show some anger at the umps deserved or not. Show your players winning is important to you. More drastic lineup changes might show that you won't stand for losing but Ventura trots out the same basic line up every day. Show you give a damn Robin, maybe your players will follow suit.

Edited June 4, 2013 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Jake]

Teams never look like they're trying if they aren't hitting.

 

Also, AJ was often lazy on the field. You should watch him "run" out a ground ball or reminisce on all the back-handed passed balls last year. Being an asshole doesn't make you a winner. I love AJ, but he's not Christ reincarnate. Losing him has nothing to do with our struggles.

[caulfield12]

For example, the Rays made a bunch of solid first round draft picks (since sucking for a decade is always pointed out as the last thing the White Sox can afford to do).

 

Crawford (2nd round), BJ Upton (2 overall), Josh Hamilton (1st overall, couldn't have foreseen car wrecks and drug addiction), Longoria (3rd), Price (1st), Delmon Young (1st), Matt Moore...they would have had Teixeira instead of Dewon Brazelton if not for Scott Boras, they also couldn't have foreseen Rocco Baldelli's health problems (6th overall).

 

That's a great foundation.

 

But the reason they became one of the best franchises in baseball was JUST AS MUCH flipping player for player, like Kenny Williams did at the height of his regime. Trades that were buried on the last page of the sports page on the transactions list.

 

The biggest one that everyone remembers was Garza/Bartlett for Delmon Young, ultimately the move that got Bill Smith fired by the Twins.

 

Little known Ben Zobrist (from right in our backyard, Eureka, Illinois) for Aubrey Huff (Astros).

 

JP Howell (former Royals' first rounder who flopped as a starter) basically stolen and patiently converted to relief, based on their internal sabermetric analysis of his peripherals.

 

Grant Balfour for Seth McClung.

 

Iwamura from Japan because nobody at that time was valuing defense in MLB, and they knew with their incoming pitching talent and some of the worst defenses in baseball (2005-07) that they had to shore up this area.

 

Cliff Floyd (another Illinois kid) for veteran leadership, not unlike Carl Everett or El Duque in 2005 with us.

 

Willy Aybar (look at his personal/off the field history) stolen from the Braves, took a huge risk and it paid off (although they made mistakes with Hamilton, Young and especially Elijah Dukes).

 

Kazmir for Victor Zambrano

 

Smart trade to pick up Gabe Gross (Brewers) and make him part of a platoon

 

Then a long list like Eric Hinske (more veteran leadership), Trever Miller, Carlos Pena (who was available for next to nothing on the waiver wire multiple times to many teams), Andy Sonnanstine, Dan Wheeler, Jhonny Gomes and Dioner Navarro (Yankees).

 

50% of it was those 1st round draft picks, and leveraging them...and getting the likes of many of them to extend out past their arbitration years early (Crawford and Longoria being the first two, Longoria famously leaving millions on the table as it worked out, but he guaranteed himself $20.5 million before his first month in the big leagues). Matt Moore would be another example, copying the model the Indians set with Shapiro in the 90's with this strategy, and what we chose to do with Sale as well, guaranteeing his family's future economically while also risking the loss of millions of dollars if he outperformed, went year to year and hit free agency earlier.

 

 

This is exactly what Hahn needs to do. He doesn't have a Delmon Young to leverage, but he does have some assets to get the process started, and tons of payroll flexibility (except for the Dunn/Danks situations).

Edited June 4, 2013 by caulfield12

[South Side Fireworks Man]

Teams never look like they're trying if they aren't hitting.

 

Also, AJ was often lazy on the field. You should watch him "run" out a ground ball or reminisce on all the back-handed passed balls last year. Being an asshole doesn't make you a winner. I love AJ, but ... Losing him has nothing to do with our struggles.

There's a difference between being lazy and being run down. I don't think you realize how banged up catchers get, especially those who catch as many games as AJ. That's why catchers get a pass for not running out ground balls to the second baseman when it's not a critical point in the game. Still, AJ hustled on a lot of ground balls when it mattered. A lot of the backhand attempts were probably also due to him being banged up and playing in pain.

 

AJ was the last of the vocal on field leaders the Sox had. Losing him certainly in part has something to do with the Sox lack of focus.

[Flash Tizzle]

There's a difference between being lazy and being run down. I don't think you realize how banged up catchers get, especially those who catch as many games as AJ. That's why catchers get a pass for not running out ground balls to the second baseman when it's not a critical point in the game. Still, AJ hustled on a lot of ground balls when it mattered. A lot of the backhand attempts were probably also due to him being banged up and playing in pain.

 

AJ was the last of the vocal on field leaders the Sox had. Losing him certainly in part has something to do with the Sox lack of focus.

I doubt this has any appreciable affect on on-field performance. And honestly, I hope no one in management reads your posts and thinks it's a good idea; because then we may get one of those gritty (ie, terrible) veteran players and justify keeping him around for his leadership.

[southsider2k5]

Teams never look like they're trying if they aren't hitting.

 

Also, AJ was often lazy on the field. You should watch him "run" out a ground ball or reminisce on all the back-handed passed balls last year. Being an asshole doesn't make you a winner. I love AJ, but he's not Christ reincarnate. Losing him has nothing to do with our struggles.

 

I haven't though the team looked lazy this year. More dumb than lazy. Stuff like running into outs has been happening way more often than guys not taking a base when they should for example.

[Jerksticks]

I haven't though the team looked lazy this year. More dumb than lazy. Stuff like running into outs has been happening way more often than guys not taking a base when they should for example.

 

Yea I agree. It's really just a whole bunch of very low batting averages magnifying everything.

 

Maybe Hahn gets crazy. I hope Hahn gets crazy. He learned from the best GM I've ever seen in any sport.

 

[Marty34]

Ventura is the leader and the team reflects his laid back attitude. If there was ever a time to be thrown out of a game its was that missed call at 1st base by Angel Hernandez. Ventura argued some but should've got tossed. Sveum got tossed arguing the same type play and it didn't immediately cost the Cubs a victory as the Sox situation did. When your team is losing show some anger at the umps deserved or not. Show your players winning is important to you. More drastic lineup changes might show that you won't stand for losing but Ventura trots out the same basic line up every day. Show you give a damn Robin, maybe your players will follow suit.

 

This is Hollywood stuff. Ventura is the least person responsible for this mess.

[kitekrazy]

I haven't though the team looked lazy this year. More dumb than lazy. Stuff like running into outs has been happening way more often than guys not taking a base when they should for example.

 

That is the Sox MO. They are always a dumb baseball team.

 

[Jerksticks]

6 games until KW's 60 game evaluation.

 

[Flash Tizzle]

6 games until KW's 60 game evaluation.

I guarantee that's going to be extended because of our upcoming schedule.

 

"Let's wait until the end of June, after the favorable schedule, to see where this team is."

 

[South Side Fireworks Man]

I doubt this has any appreciable affect on on-field performance. And honestly, I hope no one in management reads your posts and thinks it's a good idea; because then we may get one of those gritty (ie, terrible) veteran players and justify keeping him around for his leadership.

If the SS stands by and watches without covering the bag as the runner steals second base I would like to see the catcher or one of the other position players at least yell "Wake up!" instead of everyone just standing around like it was no big deal.

 

I want the Sox to get good players not terrible ones. This roster is already full of terrible players.

Edited June 4, 2013 by South Side Fireworks Man

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

This is Hollywood stuff. Ventura is the least person responsible for this mess.

I'm pretty sure your reading way too much into what I said. By "this mess" I can't be sure exactly what you mean but let's just say it means , bad team , bad minors ,bad contracts. I was only talking about showing you care about winning . Show you hate losing, show you've got the players backs. You are the manager , the field general ,show some passion especially after the recent comments by Kusyner and Parent about the players being too nice.

Edited June 4, 2013 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[caulfield12]

The offensive woes largely responsible for the losing streak weren't lost on Dunn and Flowers, who recently met with Ventura and staff in separate discussions.

 

"Yeah, we've had our meetings," Dunn said before the game. "But there's only so much that can be said. Everyone in here knows what needs to be done. It's just not getting done."

 

Ventura said the meetings were "necessary" because of the Sox's underwhelming play.

 

"I'm the guy who needs to do that."

 

Ventura said the effort and energy of his players is "still getting there."

 

"We're results-based, so it does get to a point numbers ... will make decisions for somebody."

 

The Sox are 7 1/2 weeks away from the July 31 trade deadline with plenty of quality pitching that playoff contenders seek, along with the need to get younger with Paul Konerko (37), Matt Thornton (36), Dunn (33) and Alex Rios (32) in advanced stages of their careers.

 

Meanwhile, Dunn and catcher Tyler Flowers, who have been involved in meetings as a result of their struggles, agreed there is a quiet sense of urgency in the clubhouse and that personalities can't change just to show effort.

 

"(If you) go out and do it for show ... you're doing it for the wrong reasons," Dunn said. "You're doing it so the media writes about how fiery so-and-so is. I think as players, the family that we are, I think people see right through that. You are what you are. And we'll take the good and bad. That's what we got.

 

"I would think if you need somebody to chew you out to get going, that doesn't say a lot about who you are as a person.''

 

[email protected]

 

 

 

"It has led to individual meetings with certain players held by (manager) Robin (Ventura) and his staff, a couple of which I have been involved in, a couple of which the coaching staff has handled, to send a very clear message about what our expectations are of these individuals, and if we don't see improvement in the near future that some guys who were counting on spending their summers in Chicago very likely won't be," Hahn said.

 

On the record, those have been Hahn's strongest words since he took over the GM job from Kenny Williams shortly after the 2012 season wrapped up.

 

If the White Sox don't pull out of a tailspin that started after they finally clawed their way back to .500 just over a week ago, it will be interesting to see if Hahn follows through on his threat.

 

What will he do with Adam Dunn?

 

The slumping slugger looks a lot like the guy who batted .159 in 2011, his first season with the Sox.

 

Dunn was batting .158 with a .244 on-base percentage heading into Monday night's late game against Seattle.

 

He obviously has little or no trade value, so would the White Sox be willing to pull the plug and absorb the rest of the roughly $25 million left on Dunn's contact that runs through next season?

 

And what about catcher Tyler Flowers, who was batting .200 heading into Monday's game while also struggling on defense?

 

What about Jeff Keppinger? Alejandro De Aza? Would Hahn try to trade Paul Konerko?

 

Hahn says he's going to be as patient as possible, but it's time for the White Sox to start performing or jolting moves are inevitable.

 

Scot Gregor, dailyherald.com/sports

Edited June 4, 2013 by caulfield12

[balfanman]

Well it's pretty obvious that management sees a big problem with this team. The question that I would have is "just what are you going to do about it"?

 

As someone else posted a few days ago, "Actions speak louder than words". It may take some stones by our Manager & GM, but I really want to see something done that gets the players attention. Don't ask me what specifically, I am not privvy to all of the available options or trade possibilities, but a stronger message needs to be sent.

[Marty34]

No way this team avoids 90 losses.