6/4 Games

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

The topic of Jeter's defense really does bring out the hyperbole. He wasn't a terrible defensive SS his whole career. He was a decent defensive SS for a lot of years, but has slowly descended into sub-par later in his career. He was no gold glover, ever, but he wasn't bad until very recently.

 

From 2000 to 2009, Jack Wilson led all SS with 100 DRS (Defensive Runs Saved). Jeter is dead last on that list with -100 DRS. NEGATIVE ONE HUNDRED RUNS!!

 

And of course, this famous Bill James' piece saying he could be the worst defensive SS of all-time.... http://www.fieldingbible.com/jeter.asp

[witesoxfan]

Looking at his K total per game is not any more useless than looking at his HR/AB. The true indicators of his development as a useful hitter are his BA and OBP.

 

No way. Jerry Owens would have been considered a great prospect from that point of view.

 

The power is a great start, but the K's are incredibly troubling because of how often he is doing it. Tyler Flowers put up fantastic minor league numbers, but showed signs of trouble with his K rate and it's coming to fruition now. You HAVE to be considered about the K/rate.

 

They are important, but K%, BB%, and HR/PA are far more important for a player like Hawkins. I don't want him hitting .300 with 10 homers, I want him hitting .250 with 40 homers.

[thxfrthmmrs]

No way. Jerry Owens would have been considered a great prospect from that point of view.

 

The power is a great start, but the K's are incredibly troubling because of how often he is doing it. Tyler Flowers put up fantastic minor league numbers, but showed signs of trouble with his K rate and it's coming to fruition now. You HAVE to be considered about the K/rate.

 

They are important, but K%, BB%, and HR/PA are far more important for a player like Hawkins. I don't want him hitting .300 with 10 homers, I want him hitting .250 with 40 homers.

 

Comparing my expectations of Hawkins to Jerry Owens is unfair. Hawkins has legit power we can see that. Even if he aims to hit for average and get on base, he will hit more than 2 HRs a season. If Owens can hit for 15-20 HRs and get on base, he would have been a great prospect.

 

I DID say THE K rate is important, and so is OBP, hence BB%. I think these secondary skillset should be the focus for Hawkins throughout his minor league career. I don't care if he's hitting 50 HR a season if he's hitting .200 while striking out 250 times a year.

 

To each their own. I think a .300 20 HR hitter is more valuable than a .250 40 HR guy with contact issues.

[MnSoxFan]

Ok, but the REST of his game wasn't the point. The conversation was about Micah's apparently bad defense in the IF. You told the story of Derek Jeter being a terrible defender in the minors, and in your opinion, he turned his defense around to be one of the best defensive SS ever (according to the media/uninformed). My point was that using Jeter as an example of a best-case-scenario for Micah isn't a comforting one, because in reality Jeter was a s***-defensive SS his whole career.

 

Yes, yes, one of the best OFFENSIVE SS to ever play, I'll agree w/ that, but the defense was the topic of discussion here.

 

 

OK, my intent was not to call Jeter a great defensive SS initially, I was just pointing out that a guy could make a ton of errors early on and still stay in a position for the rest of his career. I did not do a good job of saying that. And I apologize for going off track to defend Jeter, but you guys are correct that he was not an above average defensive SS.

 

So, a SS can make 50 errors and can turn out to be a decent SS, many of those early errors are also attributed to the field conditions in lower leagues. But to me, no way a 2Bman should be making 18 errors by now. Not sure how many are throwing errors, and those are really terrible if happening already at 2B, unless on occasions of making a great play and trying to hurry a throw.

 

Now watch me be totally wrong and the guy turns out to be a good 2Bman. But I still say just move him, and the sooner the better. Just my opinion.

[Cerbaho-WG]

The topic of Jeter's defense really does bring out the hyperbole. He wasn't a terrible defensive SS his whole career. He was a decent defensive SS for a lot of years, but has slowly descended into sub-par later in his career. He was no gold glover, ever, but he wasn't bad until very recently.

 

No, he was probably the worst defensive shortstop for years. His worst defensive year statistically was arguably 2000 and he was about as terrible in '01, '05, '07 and '12. He had some decent years (and even a good one in '09!), but on the whole he was and is atrocious in the field.

[Cerbaho-WG]

Flowers and Thompson as well.

 

Walker can probably K 200 times as well. But instead of hitting HRs he can swipe bags.

[Eminor3rd]

OK, my intent was not to call Jeter a great defensive SS initially, I was just pointing out that a guy could make a ton of errors early on and still stay in a position for the rest of his career. I did not do a good job of saying that. And I apologize for going off track to defend Jeter, but you guys are correct that he was not an above average defensive SS.

 

So, a SS can make 50 errors and can turn out to be a decent SS, many of those early errors are also attributed to the field conditions in lower leagues. But to me, no way a 2Bman should be making 18 errors by now. Not sure how many are throwing errors, and those are really terrible if happening already at 2B, unless on occasions of making a great play and trying to hurry a throw.

 

Now watch me be totally wrong and the guy turns out to be a good 2Bman. But I still say just move him, and the sooner the better. Just my opinion.

 

Errors aren't the thing. It's range that makes the biggest difference.

[thxfrthmmrs]

You should take another look at their stats this year.

 

We don't need to argue over sample sizes here. You would be nuts to think Flowers will not be in the 200 strikeout neighborhood if given 600 PA a year.

 

I know Thompson has improved his K rate this season, but he's well on his way to 200 strikeouts the past two minor league seasons given a 162 game season. Until I see solid improvements from him in a full season, I wouldn't shred the label from him.