Automobile Thread

[RockRaines]

Its a racket. It really is. They will take you for every dollar they can squeeze out of you.

My family knows a dealer very well and we literally only buy cars he sells because of that.

[flippedoutpunk]

For those buying a new car, I dont know if this has been mentioned yet but using www.edmunds.com is probably the best tool out there for those not too experienced with car buying. Through the site you can build the exact make and model car that you are looking to purchase, add all the extras features you want on it, and it will total the MSRP and (this is the big part) the INVOICE price. It sucks as a prospective buyer to have these stealerships try to make you pay more than the vehicle's MSRP once taxes and all the fees get added, so with the build-a-car feature on the edmunds web site, you can start negotiations from where it should start, the actual invoice price. I swear by the site and I bought a new Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk for $3k less than the invoice price, just by having the build-a-vehicle print out sheet with me during the negotiations. The invoice prices shown on the edmunds site are 100% accurate from my experience because everything from the print out I had matched the actual dealerships Priced Order Confirmation when they originally ordered the vehicle from the factory.

 

As one poster here mentioned, NEVER start negotations by talking about monthly payments. This is probably the worst thing you could possibly do because lets say "Jimmy" is looking to buy a new mustang and he goes into the dealership setting his monthly limit in his head to $400 a month. Jimmy tells the dealer this number and the dealer will be more than happy to accomodate you right away. This is because now, for a vehicle thats supposed to cost $30k the dealer can manipulate a number or two here or there to add more to the OVERALL cost of the vehicle all while keeping you obliviously happy at $400 a month. The $30k car can become a $35k+ car and you wouldnt know better because you dont even know what the invoice price for the vehicle is. When you have the invoice price at hand, you can get your $400 a month and owe thousands less over the course of your loan. Hope this helps!

[Jenksismyhero]

For those buying a new car, I dont know if this has been mentioned yet but using www.edmunds.com is probably the best tool out there for those not too experienced with car buying. Through the site you can build the exact make and model car that you are looking to purchase, add all the extras features you want on it, and it will total the MSRP and (this is the big part) the INVOICE price. It sucks as a prospective buyer to have these stealerships try to make you pay more than the vehicle's MSRP once taxes and all the fees get added, so with the build-a-car feature on the edmunds web site, you can start negotiations from where it should start, the actual invoice price. I swear by the site and I bought a new Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk for $3k less than the invoice price, just by having the build-a-vehicle print out sheet with me during the negotiations. The invoice prices shown on the edmunds site are 100% accurate from my experience because everything from the print out I had matched the actual dealerships Priced Order Confirmation when they originally ordered the vehicle from the factory.

As one poster here mentioned, NEVER start negotations by talking about monthly payments. This is probably the worst thing you could possibly do because lets say "Jimmy" is looking to buy a new mustang and he goes into the dealership setting his monthly limit in his head to $400 a month. Jimmy tells the dealer this number and the dealer will be more than happy to accomodate you right away. This is because now, for a vehicle thats supposed to cost $30k the dealer can manipulate a number or two here or there to add more to the OVERALL cost of the vehicle all while keeping you obliviously happy at $400 a month. The $30k car can become a $35k+ car and you wouldnt know better because you dont even know what the invoice price for the vehicle is. When you have the invoice price at hand, you can get your $400 a month and owe thousands less over the course of your loan. Hope this helps!

 

The easiest way is they do this is by extending the loan by a year and adding something like .5% or 1% on your interest rate. That adds up to a few thousand bucks after 5-6 years.

 

The number one piece of advice I got from friend that sells cars at a dealership - be willing to walk away. They'll bend over backwards to make a sale if you're close.

[StrangeSox]

Also, end of the month really is the best time to shop. There's often huge incentives for both individuals and the dealership to meet their monthly quotas. They might be willing to take a loss on an individual sale if it means they'll meet that quota.

 

This American Life had an episode done entirely at one dealership in NY that highlighted that

[RockRaines]

The easiest way is they do this is by extending the loan by a year and adding something like .5% or 1% on your interest rate. That adds up to a few thousand bucks after 5-6 years.

 

The number one piece of advice I got from friend that sells cars at a dealership - be willing to walk away. They'll bend over backwards to make a sale if you're close.

Also go to multiple dealerships if you can. I browsed 3-4 infiniti dealerships back in the day by different owners and they bent over to beat the other one's offer.

 

I firmly believe in having a good relationship with a sales guy or manager and going back for repeat business as well. They are less likely to f*** you if they know you will be the type that will come back after a good deal.

[flippedoutpunk]

The number one piece of advice I got from friend that sells cars at a dealership - be willing to walk away. They'll bend over backwards to make a sale if you're close.

 

+1

 

If you have invoice in hand and youre willing to walk away, you will win 100% of the time

[NorthSideSox72]

Looking for an SUV with less than 30000 miles and no older than a 2011 for under 25000 and a 7 seater at least. Only one I seem to find is the Durango which looks really nice and has some decent reviews. Just want to do due diligence. Can anyone recommend any others?

We were in this market a few years ago, though we bought new - which means these are the cars you'd be buying now. I did a ton of research, looked at every 7/8 passenger SUV available that was under (at the time) 40k new (or close to that anyway). Test drove a bunch. The three that stood out as best (these were 2012 model year) were:

 

Honda Pilot

Ford Explorer

Toyota Highlander

 

In that order. We bought the Honda, it stood well above the rest and we love it. Highly recommended. The Explorer was nice too, but got worse MPG, had the somewhat-goofy Link system for the the audio and stuff, and was so long it had trouble with our garage space. Highlander was good but just felt lower in quality, and less spacious.

 

Also looked at, but found to be lesser than any of the above: Jeep Grand Cherokee (terrible sight lines, less features, iffy reliability history), Mazda CX-9 (less features, lower quality feel), Subaru Tribeca (too pricey for same features, smaller), Ford Edge (too pricey for same stuff, smaller), Chevy something-or-other (much less features for the money), Dodge Durango (worst of the bunch - worst mileage, slowest, less features, horrible sight-lines and visibility), and others I can't even remember anymore.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

Also want to say again... TrueCar. Best friend. Harder to use for used cars, but still works there too.

 

[Jenksismyhero]

We were in this market a few years ago, though we bought new - which means these are the cars you'd be buying now. I did a ton of research, looked at every 7/8 passenger SUV available that was under (at the time) 40k new (or close to that anyway). Test drove a bunch. The three that stood out as best (these were 2012 model year) were:

 

Honda Pilot

Ford Explorer

Toyota Highlander

 

In that order. We bought the Honda, it stood well above the rest and we love it. Highly recommended. The Explorer was nice too, but got worse MPG, had the somewhat-goofy Link system for the the audio and stuff, and was so long it had trouble with our garage space. Highlander was good but just felt lower in quality, and less spacious.

 

Also looked at, but found to be lesser than any of the above: Jeep Grand Cherokee (terrible sight lines, less features, iffy reliability history), Mazda CX-9 (less features, lower quality feel), Subaru Tribeca (too pricey for same features, smaller), Ford Edge (too pricey for same stuff, smaller), Chevy something-or-other (much less features for the money), Dodge Durango (worst of the bunch - worst mileage, slowest, less features, horrible sight-lines and visibility), and others I can't even remember anymore.

 

How's that Pilot working with the 2 kids?

 

My wife and I seem to be following your trajectory. Got an Escape, had a kid. Starting to plan for #2, need to upgrade to something with a third row.

[Texsox]

(I try to buy and hold for 8-10 years

Which means you bought your first car at what, 10?!

 

I hate vehicles and everything about them. I was never a "car guy". They are a necessary evil that are useful like a hammer, not exotic, exciting, or whatever. That has saved me thousands.

 

Everyone I know that has been in the car business tells me a variation on this rule of thumb. Take care of friends, family, and referals and pound anyone else as hard as you can.

[NorthSideSox72]

How's that Pilot working with the 2 kids?

 

My wife and I seem to be following your trajectory. Got an Escape, had a kid. Starting to plan for #2, need to upgrade to something with a third row.

That (2nd kid) was the prime motivator for replacing the Escape, just like you (though we loved our Escape Hybrid). The Pilot had either the best or close to the best 2nd row leg room, which was great for dealing with kids in car seats. It's been perfect, I literally have no complaints, 2.5 years in. We don't use the 3rd row much, but it folds down flat and gives lots of room in the back.

 

We drove to DC and back with a 5 and 1.5 year old, lots of stuff in the back. Ours is the Touring 4WD model of the Pilot, so it has the movie screen in the ceiling, and that was awfully handy for a long road trip. Worked great.

 

Just bear in mind with ANY of these models I mentioned, the mileage won't be nearly as good as with the FEH, or even a regular Escape. We got about 30 MPG on average with our FEH. With mostly local and some highway use, we get about 19-20 on average with the Pilot. 23-24 is the max, for all highway.

 

Only exception to this is the Toyota Highlander Hybrid, which gets like 28 MPG. But whereas the FEH was like 4k more than the regular Escape and had tax incentives, the Highlander Hybrid is like 9k more (lists at like 48k), and there are no more tax incentives on it. We figured out it would take like 8 years of heavy use to offset the cost. Not worth it, IMO, at this point.

 

Seriously can't recommend the Pilot enough.

 

[Jenksismyhero]

That (2nd kid) was the prime motivator for replacing the Escape, just like you (though we loved our Escape Hybrid). The Pilot had either the best or close to the best 2nd row leg room, which was great for dealing with kids in car seats. It's been perfect, I literally have no complaints, 2.5 years in. We don't use the 3rd row much, but it folds down flat and gives lots of room in the back.

 

We drove to DC and back with a 5 and 1.5 year old, lots of stuff in the back. Ours is the Touring 4WD model of the Pilot, so it has the movie screen in the ceiling, and that was awfully handy for a long road trip. Worked great.

 

Just bear in mind with ANY of these models I mentioned, the mileage won't be nearly as good as with the FEH, or even a regular Escape. We got about 30 MPG on average with our FEH. With mostly local and some highway use, we get about 19-20 on average with the Pilot. 23-24 is the max, for all highway.

 

Only exception to this is the Toyota Highlander Hybrid, which gets like 28 MPG. But whereas the FEH was like 4k more than the regular Escape and had tax incentives, the Highlander Hybrid is like 9k more (lists at like 48k), and there are no more tax incentives on it. We figured out it would take like 8 years of heavy use to offset the cost. Not worth it, IMO, at this point.

 

Seriously can't recommend the Pilot enough.

 

Yeah that's about what I get now with my Escape (4wd), 19 on the low end, 23 on the high end. We'll have to take a look at the Pilot in the coming months.

[Chisoxfn]

How's that Pilot working with the 2 kids?

 

My wife and I seem to be following your trajectory. Got an Escape, had a kid. Starting to plan for #2, need to upgrade to something with a third row.

My wife and I have a Pilot and a Highlander. Our Pilot is older now (2005) and the Highlander is a 2012. Both are great vehicles and I thought long and hard about the Pilot but mainly decided for the Highlander because we already owned one Pilot. Love them both. Pilot is more trucky and more headroom but both are really roomy 2nd seats with Highlander getting better mileage, etc. We only have one child so far (9 months) so can't comment too much but I can't see not having enough space. 3rd row is tight (but folds flat and is convenient), but will work for young children. Hard to compare which one I like more, both are fantastic cars.

[Jenksismyhero]

My parents of a Buick Enclave. I really like that a lot. Seems like it'd be great for a couple of kids.

[RockRaines]

My wife and I have a Pilot and a Highlander. Our Pilot is older now (2005) and the Highlander is a 2012. Both are great vehicles and I thought long and hard about the Pilot but mainly decided for the Highlander because we already owned one Pilot. Love them both. Pilot is more trucky and more headroom but both are really roomy 2nd seats with Highlander getting better mileage, etc. We only have one child so far (9 months) so can't comment too much but I can't see not having enough space. 3rd row is tight (but folds flat and is convenient), but will work for young children. Hard to compare which one I like more, both are fantastic cars.

Everyone I know has a Pilot for their kids my sister and SIL as well. They all love it.

[iamshack]

Everyone I know has a Pilot for their kids my sister and SIL as well. They all love it.

Yeah, the wife has a Pilot. Nice vehicle.

 

Test drove some Audi A6's last night...will primarily be the wife's daily driver, but my weekend car as well. LOVE the supercharged with the S-Line accents, but dunno if I can justify the extra expense over the 2.0 quattro version. Problem is, I feel like the 2.0 quattro version looks like an old man car...can't quite make myself like it.

[2nd_city_saint787]

Diggin this up because I need some help.

 

Last week I fixed my O2 sensor in an effort to pass emissions. Now I've failed emissions twice due to monitors not being ready (namely the EGR and catalyst). Emissions place told me I simply needed to drive it in town and on the highway for 3-5 days. Did that and still failed. Them a mechanic gave me an ODB drive cycle, where I have to do a cold start, excel up to 55(on the nose) for 3 minutes, then decelerate to 20 without braking, then back up to 60(again on the nose) for 5 minutes....I'm finding this to be a pain in the ass because my cars cruise control blows. I'll set it 55/60 but it wont stay there the whole time.......Anyone know if theres some sort of way around this? I've tried completing this cycle a few times to no avail and it's really starting to piss me off.

[Texsox]

When I need to take four passengers I really love my F-150. Thigh room galore, plenty of head room, three adults in the back seat like it was a limo.

[GoodAsGould]

When I need to take four passengers I really love my F-150. Thigh room galore, plenty of head room, three adults in the back seat like it was a limo.

 

My lease is up next January and Im debating between the F-150 and Colorado as my next car. Really hoping I'll be able to swing a good deal since in theory the dealerships will be trying to move all the 2015 models off the lot in preparation for 2016 models.

[Texsox]

When I bought my 2013 there were almost $10,000 in rebates plus the dealer discount. It Texas they are fast movers.

[Whitewashed in '05]

Looking to purchase my first brand new car. I wasn't going brand new initially, but after some research, a used model is only ~5k less. Been reading lots of reviews, articles on new car shopping/negotiating, noting down things such as invoice prices, average price paid, etc.

 

Anyone want to share any effective tips used when negotiating that really worked well for you?

[NorthSideSox72]

Looking to purchase my first brand new car. I wasn't going brand new initially, but after some research, a used model is only ~5k less. Been reading lots of reviews, articles on new car shopping/negotiating, noting down things such as invoice prices, average price paid, etc.

 

Anyone want to share any effective tips used when negotiating that really worked well for you?

truecar.com

 

Seriously, that is far and away the best tool I can advise.

 

Also, once you do know what you want, call lots of local dealers and just see who can give you the best deal. Don't go to one dealer. And when you do find your best offer, get it in writing.

 

Keep in mind as well, what the price may include. The best way to compare prices is to do so on Price + Destination. Because everything beyond that should only be taxes and won't be relevant to a comparison.

 

One note on taxes - they are different in different counties, but technically you are supposed to pay up the difference to your home county. In practice this may never come up. I bought my last new car in Lake County, but live in Cook, and the difference is only like .25% in rate (it was less than $100 difference in the end I think). Cook never asked for the difference.

 

[southsider2k5]

Looking to purchase my first brand new car. I wasn't going brand new initially, but after some research, a used model is only ~5k less. Been reading lots of reviews, articles on new car shopping/negotiating, noting down things such as invoice prices, average price paid, etc.

 

Anyone want to share any effective tips used when negotiating that really worked well for you?

 

Every dealer will try to negotiate with you through payments per month, and try to hide the terms for the pieces of the deal from you. If you can have financing arranged ahead of time on your own, do it.

 

After that, the rest is just information, knowledge, and being willing to walk away.

[RockRaines]

Dont get attached to a car and make that lead into into a bad deal because you want it now. Cars are a horrible investment and you should treat it that way.

[NorthSideSox72]

Every dealer will try to negotiate with you through payments per month, and try to hide the terms for the pieces of the deal from you. If you can have financing arranged ahead of time on your own, do it.

 

After that, the rest is just information, knowledge, and being willing to walk away.

 

Yeah that's true too - don't think of the negotiation as having to do with the payments. Get the best price, then talk financing. If the financing terms seem bad, then maybe go to your next best offer and see if they can do better on rate. But the payment amount is not the cost, exactly.

 

Dont get attached to a car and make that lead into into a bad deal because you want it now. Cars are a horrible investment and you should treat it that way.

 

They aren't an investment - they are a cost center. As soon as you come to that realization (don't mean you Rock, meaning anyone), it all becomes more clear.