Automobile Thread

[StrangeSox]

Tesla has done fantastic stuff with the S. Consumer Reports called it one of the best cars they had driven, in any class, ever. Sales are sky-rocketing despite a high price tag. Early quality measures from the usual evaluating firms are positive, though it is still very early to say for sure.

 

And they used a very smart business plan... they knew early adopters were the ones with cash, so they went highest end first (their sports car), in small numbers... then the less expensive but still pricey sedan, at much larger but still relatively small numbers... their next project in the pipe is an SUV slightly cheaper... then they want to do a cheaper-still sedan at more like 40-50k. This allows them to go into economies of scale as they make their way into lower price points.

 

That one infamous newpaper article about the Tesla S, trying to get from one super-charging station to another and not making it... turns out the driver didn't follow the instructions. The author even posted a partial retraction of the original article.

 

And Tesla is smart enough to realize the fears are in part about reliability (new car, new brand), and about the battery (staying power over the years), so they are putting long warranties on the cars.

 

I may seriously consider getting one in the next few years.

 

If you followed the back-and-forth when that article first came out, it was pretty hilarious. The Tesla guy (Elon Musk IIRC) was a little over-the-top in his responses, but the car was loaded with data-logging equipment. They had hard evidence that directly contradicted most of what the author claimed. Shortly afterwards, multiple Tesla S owners made the exact same trip on their own with zero problems because they actually charged their car and didn't whine about going 100 miles before running out of juice when the gauge said 50 miles left.

[NorthSideSox72]

I honestly don't care about how a car performs on a track. For 99.9% of the population, that is irrelevant.

 

The Tesla will get you 200+ miles (how much + depending on various factors) on a full charge on the road. That is more than enough for everything but a true long-distance road trip. Leaf is what, 40-50 miles? As Balta has said, you need to ask yourself how often (if at all) you are going to make a long road trip. If it is zero, or even if it is rarely, or if you have another car, then the range should be only a minimal consideration. If on the other hand you go off on road trips a bunch of times yearly and only have one car, then an electric is not for you... yet.

 

The Volt is the best of both worlds, and I would love the idea, if only it had more room for kid seats. Maybe the next one will.

 

We won't be in the market for a car for another couple years, and it will be fun to see what electric and/or plug-in hybrid options will be out there at that time.

 

[StrangeSox]

And more and more places are installing charging stations. The economy garage (and probably the daily garage) at Midway have them. Stores are putting them in. Tesla is installing more and more of their "supercharge" stations in populated areas.

 

Even for people who want something like the Model S, track-driving isn't the major concern. It's a luxury cruiser with good handling and a lot of power. It's not a little Lotus. For an overwhelming majority of people, a 200-300 mile range is more than enough for almost all of their driving.

[farmteam]

And more and more places are installing charging stations. The economy garage (and probably the daily garage) at Midway have them. Stores are putting them in. Tesla is installing more and more of their "supercharge" stations in populated areas.

In an Energy Law class last semester, we had a project about a utility trying to get a pilot project that would have installed charging stations at the major local university included in their rate base. Pretty interesting stuff.

[StrangeSox]

Tesla has a map of their current "Superchargers" as well as their planned roll out available here.

 

http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

 

I thought there were some already in Chicago, but apparently the only one in Illinois is down in Normal. Probably in conjunction with the university. 200 miles in 30 minutes isn't really in the road-trip range yet, but that's still pretty impressive. You could stop for lunch on a long-ish drive and charge your car back to full for free.

[bmags]

Tesla has a map of their current "Superchargers" as well as their planned roll out available here.

 

http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

 

I thought there were some already in Chicago, but apparently the only one in Illinois is down in Normal. Probably in conjunction with the university. 200 miles in 30 minutes isn't really in the road-trip range yet, but that's still pretty impressive. You could stop for lunch on a long-ish drive and charge your car back to full for free.

 

I could have sworn there was one at the walgreens parking lot on diversey and california.

[StrangeSox]

There's a lot of random electric vehicle chargers, but the Tesla "Supercharger" is a much-higher-amperage charger only for Tesla vehicles.

[NorthSideSox72]

There's a lot of random electric vehicle chargers, but the Tesla "Supercharger" is a much-higher-amperage charger only for Tesla vehicles.

Yeah, Normal, IL seems pretty random. But their schedule for adding new ones looks very aggressive on that page. Should be some in Chicago in 2014 it looks like.

 

[StrangeSox]

Yeah, Normal, IL seems pretty random. But their schedule for adding new ones looks very aggressive on that page. Should be some in Chicago in 2014 it looks like.

 

It's gotta be some partnership with the engineering department at ISU or something along those lines.

 

edit: this article just mentions it being part of their national roll-out and doesn't mention anything about the universities. It's about half-way between Chicago and St. Louis, so that could be why. I'd imagine that's a frequent commute for some.

 

 

Edited August 12, 2013 by StrangeSox

[bmags]

There's a lot of random electric vehicle chargers, but the Tesla "Supercharger" is a much-higher-amperage charger only for Tesla vehicles.

 

Yeah, I thought it was branded but I may have just projected.

[DukeNukeEm]

Watch that if you're interested in what's possible with electric cars.

 

Here's the problem I have with Tesla. Mercedes is just throwing s*** against the wall and seeing what sticks and coming up with stuff like torque vectoring and these interchangable chassis/engine output settings that completely change the identity of the car. Press a button and your comfortable, efficient highway cruiser can gain AWD and be great in the snow. Its traction control on steroids, it starts defeating the purpose of brakes altogether (and the most inefficient thing you can do in a car is brake)... brilliant. It start creating an identity around the electric car that instead of trying to be the ICE it does something wildly different that you average driver will probably find better.

 

Tesla isn't doing that. They are making ICE cars and just swapping out the drivetrain components, accepting all the faults of electric cars with only one or two of the real benefits (no gas, great torque). The Model S, when you compare it with cars in its pricerange, just gets smothered. Would you honestly have a Model S instead of an M5? Or F-Type V8S? Or maybe the greatest GT car ever (DB9)? Because that's what its competing against directly. It not trying to be that different at all...

[bigruss]

Watch that if you're interested in what's possible with electric cars.

 

Here's the problem I have with Tesla. Mercedes is just throwing s*** against the wall and seeing what sticks and coming up with stuff like torque vectoring and these interchangable chassis/engine output settings that completely change the identity of the car. Press a button and your comfortable, efficient highway cruiser can gain AWD and be great in the snow. Its traction control on steroids, it starts defeating the purpose of brakes altogether (and the most inefficient thing you can do in a car is brake)... brilliant. It start creating an identity around the electric car that instead of trying to be the ICE it does something wildly different that you average driver will probably find better.

 

Tesla isn't doing that. They are making ICE cars and just swapping out the drivetrain components, accepting all the faults of electric cars with only one or two of the real benefits (no gas, great torque). The Model S, when you compare it with cars in its pricerange, just gets smothered. Would you honestly have a Model S instead of an M5? Or F-Type V8S? Or maybe the greatest GT car ever (DB9)? Because that's what its competing against directly. It not trying to be that different at all...

Nice, I'm all for other companies bringing competition into the electric car market. That said, the Tesla S is a beautiful car.

 

And really? The DB9 is msrp'd at $183,700, only double the Tesla S P85 numbers I've seen.

[NorthSideSox72]

Watch that if you're interested in what's possible with electric cars.

 

Here's the problem I have with Tesla. Mercedes is just throwing s*** against the wall and seeing what sticks and coming up with stuff like torque vectoring and these interchangable chassis/engine output settings that completely change the identity of the car. Press a button and your comfortable, efficient highway cruiser can gain AWD and be great in the snow. Its traction control on steroids, it starts defeating the purpose of brakes altogether (and the most inefficient thing you can do in a car is brake)... brilliant. It start creating an identity around the electric car that instead of trying to be the ICE it does something wildly different that you average driver will probably find better.

 

Tesla isn't doing that. They are making ICE cars and just swapping out the drivetrain components, accepting all the faults of electric cars with only one or two of the real benefits (no gas, great torque). The Model S, when you compare it with cars in its pricerange, just gets smothered. Would you honestly have a Model S instead of an M5? Or F-Type V8S? Or maybe the greatest GT car ever (DB9)? Because that's what its competing against directly. It not trying to be that different at all...

Those cars are not its competition. Its primary competition are mainline luxury sedans in the 50-100k price range. You are talking about super-cars priced at 150k and going up to 300k. Different market entirely.

 

And you are trying to put the idea of engineering subtleties from mature companies on a company that just released its first sedan, ever. Really? The Tesla S has all sorts of nifty neato features the others don't, as well. But not surprising that they don't have every same design aspect. It seems like you are expecting Tesla to cram all the wonders of a 200k supercar, into a 75k sedan, ALONG with all the brand new aspects of an electric luxury sedan. Bizarre.

 

[RockRaines]

Watch that if you're interested in what's possible with electric cars.

 

Here's the problem I have with Tesla. Mercedes is just throwing s*** against the wall and seeing what sticks and coming up with stuff like torque vectoring and these interchangable chassis/engine output settings that completely change the identity of the car. Press a button and your comfortable, efficient highway cruiser can gain AWD and be great in the snow. Its traction control on steroids, it starts defeating the purpose of brakes altogether (and the most inefficient thing you can do in a car is brake)... brilliant. It start creating an identity around the electric car that instead of trying to be the ICE it does something wildly different that you average driver will probably find better.

 

Tesla isn't doing that. They are making ICE cars and just swapping out the drivetrain components, accepting all the faults of electric cars with only one or two of the real benefits (no gas, great torque). The Model S, when you compare it with cars in its pricerange, just gets smothered. Would you honestly have a Model S instead of an M5? Or F-Type V8S? Or maybe the greatest GT car ever (DB9)? Because that's what its competing against directly. It not trying to be that different at all...

Tesla's are like 70k, thats roughly a really nice luxury SUV or a middle of the road Benz.

[DukeNukeEm]

Tesla's are like 70k, thats roughly a really nice luxury SUV or a middle of the road Benz.

They're actually more like $80k with any sort of meaningful options before a nice government subsidized $7500 tax credit. By the way, complaining that poor little Tesla cannot be compared to the larger companies when 10% of every sale is incentivized by the government and the company itself spent all of its life except the past 6 months suckling on some form of green initiative teat doesn't fly with me. Their lack of innovation annoys the crap out of me.

 

Mercedes beancounters decided it was OK to just hurl some R&D car onto the market offering all these functions we've never seen before. They're letting the market get exposed to the possibilities here. I mean instead of getting bogged down in the tired old arguments that circle around batteries, charging times and ranges that wont solve themselves for probably another decade Mercedes just flat gives us this grand statement on what the electric car can (and should) be. It should not be a luxo-barge weighing in at 2.5 tons that delivers its power to one set of wheels in the most inefficient way imaginable considering the available technology, that's just a colossal waste of tech that already exists.

 

And yea, an M5 MSRP's for about $90k, F-Types anywhere from $70-90k, used DB9's with sub-15k miles can be found under 100grand. There's ton more than that too, its a crowded arena. Tesla is raking in because they're a new domestic carmaker that gets some really great publicity, but eventually they're going to have put something out that's better than the rest if they want to compete. I dont see the Model S nor Model X doing that much longer.

Edited August 12, 2013 by DukeNukeEm

[bigruss]

You are one angry person.

[RockRaines]

They're actually more like $80k with any sort of meaningful options before a nice government subsidized $7500 tax credit. By the way, complaining that poor little Tesla cannot be compared to the larger companies when 10% of every sale is incentivized by the government and the company itself spent all of its life except the past 6 months suckling on some form of green initiative teat doesn't fly with me. Their lack of innovation annoys the crap out of me.

 

Mercedes beancounters decided it was OK to just hurl some R&D car onto the market offering all these functions we've never seen before. They're letting the market get exposed to the possibilities here. I mean instead of getting bogged down in the tired old arguments that circle around batteries, charging times and ranges that wont solve themselves for probably another decade Mercedes just flat gives us this grand statement on what the electric car can (and should) be. It should not be a luxo-barge weighing in at 2.5 tons that delivers its power to one set of wheels in the most inefficient way imaginable considering the available technology, that's just a colossal waste of tech that already exists.

 

And yea, an M5 MSRP's for about $90k, F-Types anywhere from $70-90k, used DB9's with sub-15k miles can be found under 100grand. There's ton more than that too, its a crowded arena. Tesla is raking in because they're a new domestic carmaker that gets some really great publicity, but eventually they're going to have put something out that's better than the rest if they want to compete. I dont see the Model S nor Model X doing that much longer.

Sucking off the gov teat huh? Were they the fastest company to ever pay back their government loan for projects like this? They are also innovative enough to have not only influenced other manufacturers to produce their own fully electric cars but they supply batteries for many of them. And they are co-producing Mercedes electric A class car.

 

Seems like you have a personal vendetta.

[NorthSideSox72]

They're actually more like $80k with any sort of meaningful options before a nice government subsidized $7500 tax credit. By the way, complaining that poor little Tesla cannot be compared to the larger companies when 10% of every sale is incentivized by the government and the company itself spent all of its life except the past 6 months suckling on some form of green initiative teat doesn't fly with me. Their lack of innovation annoys the crap out of me.

 

Mercedes beancounters decided it was OK to just hurl some R&D car onto the market offering all these functions we've never seen before. They're letting the market get exposed to the possibilities here. I mean instead of getting bogged down in the tired old arguments that circle around batteries, charging times and ranges that wont solve themselves for probably another decade Mercedes just flat gives us this grand statement on what the electric car can (and should) be. It should not be a luxo-barge weighing in at 2.5 tons that delivers its power to one set of wheels in the most inefficient way imaginable considering the available technology, that's just a colossal waste of tech that already exists.

 

And yea, an M5 MSRP's for about $90k, F-Types anywhere from $70-90k, used DB9's with sub-15k miles can be found under 100grand. There's ton more than that too, its a crowded arena. Tesla is raking in because they're a new domestic carmaker that gets some really great publicity, but eventually they're going to have put something out that's better than the rest if they want to compete. I dont see the Model S nor Model X doing that much longer.

 

You seem to be allowing whatever strange thing you have against Tesla warp your perspective here.

 

[StrangeSox]

Watch that if you're interested in what's possible with electric cars.

 

Here's the problem I have with Tesla. Mercedes is just throwing s*** against the wall and seeing what sticks and coming up with stuff like torque vectoring and these interchangable chassis/engine output settings that completely change the identity of the car. Press a button and your comfortable, efficient highway cruiser can gain AWD and be great in the snow. Its traction control on steroids, it starts defeating the purpose of brakes altogether (and the most inefficient thing you can do in a car is brake)... brilliant. It start creating an identity around the electric car that instead of trying to be the ICE it does something wildly different that you average driver will probably find better.

 

Tesla isn't doing that. They are making ICE cars and just swapping out the drivetrain components, accepting all the faults of electric cars with only one or two of the real benefits (no gas, great torque). The Model S, when you compare it with cars in its pricerange, just gets smothered. Would you honestly have a Model S instead of an M5? Or F-Type V8S? Or maybe the greatest GT car ever (DB9)? Because that's what its competing against directly. It not trying to be that different at all...

 

The Tesla starts at $64k. The M5 starts at $91. The Jag starts at $93. The Aston, as russ pointed out, is $180k+, or close to three times the price of the Tesla. What you said is the equivalent of saying "why would you want a Ford Focus? A BMW M3 is so much nicer and faster!"

 

The Model S is and will be a niche car. It's a transitional vehicle. Mercedes can try all of that great new tech out, but Tesla is actually on the road today and developing their next, less-niche models.

[StrangeSox]

They're actually more like $80k with any sort of meaningful options before a nice government subsidized $7500 tax credit. By the way, complaining that poor little Tesla cannot be compared to the larger companies when 10% of every sale is incentivized by the government and the company itself spent all of its life except the past 6 months suckling on some form of green initiative teat doesn't fly with me. Their lack of innovation annoys the crap out of me.

 

You are aware that the larger companies also benefit from these electric vehicle subsidies and rebates, yes?

 

What isn't innovative about an electric car that is luxurious, fast, spacious and gets about 300 miles and a charge? And can be refilled back to 200 miles in 30 minutes if you hit their supercharger station? Is it ground-breaking technology like the first Benz was? No, but it isn't trying to be.

 

I mean instead of getting bogged down in the tired old arguments that circle around batteries, charging times and ranges that wont solve themselves for probably another decade

 

Couldn't you have said the same thing a few years ago about an electric GT cruiser getting close to 300 miles and having a 1-hour full recharge time?

Edited August 12, 2013 by StrangeSox

[2nd_city_saint787]

Is this thread being used as an automotive help thread or just strictly talking about fancy cars...I could use some opinions on why my saturn is burning oil and blowin smoke...any gear heads here? I can go into detail.

[DukeNukeEm]

Is this thread being used as an automotive help thread or just strictly talking about fancy cars...I could use some opinions on why my saturn is burning oil and blowin smoke...any gear heads here? I can go into detail.

When are you getting smoke? High revs? Idle? Just starting up? What color is the smoke?

 

Burning oil and blowing smoke are probably the same problem showing two linked symptoms. Valve cover gasket is a common culprit for that.

[2nd_city_saint787]

When are you getting smoke? High revs? Idle? Just starting up? What color is the smoke?

 

Burning oil and blowing smoke are probably the same problem showing two linked symptoms. Valve cover gasket is a common culprit for that.

 

 

Valve cover gasket is what I was thinking at first as well until I looked at my coolant and saw it looked like a chocolate milkshake in there. That's leading me to believe it's potentially a blown head gasket. But then again I'm not losing any coolant, unless it only appears that way due to the amount of oil getting in.

 

Anyway, it's white smoke when I just start the car...but only after adding oil. I just got an oil change Saturday, that night when I started it I got a good amount of smoke out the tailpipe and it continued for about a block before going away. Same thing Sunday morning. This morning I had no smoke whatsoever.

 

Really hoping it's not the head gasket because I don't have the thousand dollars or whatever to fix it.

[StrangeSox]

milkshake does sound like a blown head gasket

[2nd_city_saint787]

That's what I fear strange.

 

Also worth noting is it doesn't overheat...at least not yet anyway. So no loss of coolant (unless it's being replaced by oil) and no over heating which are to pretty telling signs of a blown head gasket.

 

Would you guys suggest I simply flush the coolant and see what happens from there? I can't remember the last time I put new coolant in so theres a chance its just old???