You're Hahn, who are you looking to trade first?

[elrockinMT]

I'll say again...I'd hate to move Thompson up this year. We need to be patient with this kid, he's developing exactly as he should be, took a month to get the hang of AA and started putting up good numbers, gradually cutting down on the strikeouts, becoming more consistent, but he's young and belongs in AA this year and AAA next year. Calling him up this year is just asking for him to bust. He might figure it out, but you're asking for him to strike out 40 times in a month and wind up changing his approach if you call him up now.

 

 

Then trades need to be made piecemeal if you will. A few after the all-star break and the rest in the off season. I think rebuilding around some of the players we have now and bringing up our own talent is the way to go. I think we try and keep Rios, keep the DP combo of Ramirez and Beckham and maybe Viciedo although I have been less than impressed with these hard wild swings of his this year. Bring up Phegley to catch and the two best OF prospects, if Viciedo takes over at 1B. We need a 3rd Baseman too.

Edited June 8, 2013 by elrockinMT

[caulfield12]

That might be the worst bullpen ever assembled on paper.

 

 

To that, I'll respond.

 

 

Shingo Takatsu

Damaso Marte (the only proven member of the pen)

Neal Cotts

Cliff Politte

Dustin Hermanson (huge question mark coming off what looked like a career-ending set of injuries in the NL)

Luis Vizcaino (a veteran, but one who was dumped when we acquired him and whose fastball was down 3-5 MPH, and was throwing 75% sliders)

 

Everyone knew that Takatsu was a one-trick pony...and that Cotts wasn't cutting the mustard as a starter.

 

 

They would go on to give innings to Jon Adkins, Bajenaru, El Duque, Jenks (who started in AA), David Sanders and Kevin Walker.

 

I'd have to check if McCarthy ever came out of the bullpen, but he wasn't part of the Opening Day roster and was perceived 100% as a starter at that juncture.

 

 

KW actually put together a much worse bullpen (other than Jenks/Thornton) coming into the 2007 season, and that was when we were under the illusion of competing despite running out of steam coming down the stretch in 2006.

Edited June 8, 2013 by caulfield12

[2nd_city_saint787]

In a perfect world they can trade Rios for Olt. Peavy to the highest bidder. Then use the money saved to grab Granderson AND Morales. If Olt and Tank put it all together then they can compete next year.

 

A new leadoff hitter and/or catcher would be nice to get in the Peavy deal or in a separate deal for Crain.

Edited June 8, 2013 by 2nd_city_saint787

[caulfield12]

Yeah, we are just in different realms of understanding baseball. I like to attempt to win with an approach similar to the Rays and A's (and only temporarily because we have more money) you like to lose and you want the Sox to be the Royals because you lived their ten years and they have great prospects (who then turn into busts).

 

You want Santos Rodriguez and Henry Rodriguez and their spectacularly bad walk rates.

 

You want to go into the season without a LHP that has EVER thrown a MLB inning.

 

You want Nate Jones to close. This one I understand because his 2013 campaign has merited it. Wait, no it hasn't.

 

Simon Castro (6.10 ERA in AAA over 25 starts and only four relief appearances in the minors throughout his career.)

 

Andre Rienzo (5.40 ERA in AAA over his career. With a WHIP at 1.57. Not to mention this season both his ERA and WHIP are worse than career norms. Also minimal relief experience, 103 games, 89 starts. No relief appearances since '11.)

 

I am starting to think you're actually a Royals fan and you want us to suck for the years to come so a 3rd place finish feasible for them.

 

 

 

You're funny.

 

Because I quoted every single move the D-Rays made over 2006 and 2007 heading into the 2008 as an example of WHAT TO DO.

 

The problem is that we don't have Evan Longoria, BJ Upton, Carl Crawford, Carlos Pena, Jason Bartlett, Iwamura, and Ben Zobrist as part of our starting line-up for 2014, NOW DO WE?????????????

 

This WHOLE SCENARIO IS PREDICATED ON WHAT TO DO IF WE WERE IN FULL REBUILD MODE, with the caveat, ONCE AGAIN, being that Sale/Danks (no choice)/Quintana/Santiago and Erik Johnson weren't traded.

 

It's the worst case scenario.

 

It's unlikely to happen.

 

The Rays would never have been in a position to acquire Alex Rios' salary, Peavy's salary or do half of the things that the White Sox have done over the last 10 years.

 

And the only mistake Andrew Friedman made was giving Percival $8 million to be the closer, actually.

 

 

[caulfield12]

Shingo Takutsu - 2004 stats: 2.31 ERA, .98 WHIP, 62.1 innings.

Damaso Marte - 2004 stats: 3.42 ERA, 73.2 innings, 8.3 K/9

Cliff Polite - 2004 stats: 4.38 ERA, 51.1 innings, 8.4 K/9, threw very hard.

Neal Cotts was our third best prospect going into '04. Former 2nd round draft pick. Threw 65 innings in '04 with an 8.0 K/9. He was a project, they didn't give up on him and it worked out.

Dustin Hermanson: Former first rounder with injury problems. 2004 stats as a reliever: 4.33 ERA, 9.3 K/9, 17 saves.

Luis Vizcaino- 2004 stats: 3.75 ERA, 72 innings,

 

 

What do any of these guys have anything to do with any of the chumps advocated? NO ONE from your squad has experience except Nate Jones and Henry Rodriguez and they're doing f***ing wonderful this year! You should really stop citing old players that have nothing to do with anything and stop pinning win totals to teams you haven't seen the final product. Your posts are laughable.

 

 

And how long did "TAKUTSU" last as closer with those gaudy stats? About a month or month and a half.

 

Henry Rodriguez throws very hard. There's one million relievers who throw very hard. Nobody could have predicted him (Politte) to have the type of season that he did, NOBODY.

 

If Cotts was so good, why did he only last for one season and disappear from baseball for almost a decade? What happened to Cliff Politte after 2005?

 

Did ANYONE at any message board in the world predict Hermanson to have the type of season he had in 2005? Or Jenks?

 

 

NOBODY EVER KNOWS WITH BULLPENS, on a year to year basis, what they will do.

 

Other than if you have an elite closer or set-up guys like Marte and Thornton (in their primes).

 

 

[Jake]

Would you trade Adam Dunn for Andre Ethier?

[Balta1701]

Would you trade Adam Dunn for Andre Ethier?

Straight up? Not a chance. If they add in $40 million? ok.

[caulfield12]

While it's pretty optimistic, I like the approach. I really think Granderson can be had cheaper than he's worth. He's having a terrible year in his contract year. I think he's a smart player and a winner too. Plus, he would have to like coming here it's his hometown, he's building UIC's baseball stadium, he grew up a Sox fan, etc. Sign him to an affordable 2-3 year contract. Plus, he's black guy with tools, if KW has any say still he'd be interested.

 

LF De Aza (not a fan of keeping him around but we don't have any other options.)

2B Beckham

CF Granderson

1B Kendry Morales

DH/RF Mike Olt

RF/DH Dayan Viciedo/ Adam Dunn

3B Keppinger vs LHP, Gillaspie vs. RHP

C Phegley/Flowers/Veteran

SS Alexei Ramirez

 

Granderson shifts to LF after next year, De Aza gone. No long term commitment and a couple wild cards who can become good/serviceable MLB players (Olt, Tank, Phegley, Gillaspie) Sign a couple RP and we could be in contention while our farm hopefully starts producing.

 

 

DUH. Now you're copying the idea from a thread already started.

 

I'll take Granderson in CF, Utley at 2B, Morales at 1B and McCann at catcher.

 

GENIUS!!!!

 

THEN, you can utilize your bullpen construction idea and nobody will argue with you because we're actually capable of contending with that line-up.

 

Now all you have to do is go out and get JR to open up the pocketbook and convince them to play for the White Sox when we're going to finish this season with 84-88 losses at the current rate.

 

 

[caulfield12]

Straight up? Not a chance. If they add in $40 million? ok.

 

 

I would take my chances with BJ Upton over Ethier in that same scenario.

 

With the $30-40 million coming the White Sox way, of course (which is probably unlikely to happen with the Braves, quite possible for the Dodgers).

[southsider2k5]

While it's pretty optimistic, I like the approach. I really think Granderson can be had cheaper than he's worth. He's having a terrible year in his contract year. I think he's a smart player and a winner too. Plus, he would have to like coming here it's his hometown, he's building UIC's baseball stadium, he grew up a Sox fan, etc. Sign him to an affordable 2-3 year contract. Plus, he's black guy with tools, if KW has any say still he'd be interested.

 

LF De Aza (not a fan of keeping him around but we don't have any other options.)

2B Beckham

CF Granderson

1B Kendry Morales

DH/RF Mike Olt

RF/DH Dayan Viciedo/ Adam Dunn

3B Keppinger vs LHP, Gillaspie vs. RHP

C Phegley/Flowers/Veteran

SS Alexei Ramirez

 

Granderson shifts to LF after next year, De Aza gone. No long term commitment and a couple wild cards who can become good/serviceable MLB players (Olt, Tank, Phegley, Gillaspie) Sign a couple RP and we could be in contention while our farm hopefully starts producing.

 

IF we sell off, we are not adding Curtis Granderson in the off season.

[fathom]

I would take my chances with BJ Upton over Ethier in that same scenario.

 

With the $30-40 million coming the White Sox way, of course (which is probably unlikely to happen with the Braves, quite possible for the Dodgers).

 

Ethier and Viciedo would make a great platoon

[Y2Jimmy0]

Ethier and Viciedo would make a great platoon

 

 

This is actually true. I want no part of Ethier. He is a platoon player. He should not ever face a LHP. Just keep Dunn and let his contract expire next year. Why take on Ethier?

[southsider2k5]

He gets too much s***. I think a lot of people could do what he does but he's not horrible.

 

 

I wouldn't be so sure. I don't think the FO would put out a lineup with no recognizable names. We have the hardest thing to get in starting pitching, we shouldn't make it go to waste in my opinion.

 

Why would we spend that kind of money for a contract to surround him with nothing. In addition to that, why would he want to come into a situation where he is in the first year of a rebuilding program?

[caulfield12]

IN ORDER TO HAVE LOGICAL DISCUSSIONS.....we should FIRST refer to what the actual scenario is....

 

Everyone would love to sign Granderson, Morales, Utley and McCann. Odds of it happening. ZERO.

 

 

If they ONLY trade Peavy, Crain, Thornton and Lindstrom, they still have a chance to compete in 2014, depending on what offensive pieces they get back and who they sign as FA's.

 

If they trade all of the above-mentioned players, and Rios/Ramirez, then you're in rebuild but not complete rebuild or tear down mode, which would obviously mean dealing Sale, Reed, Quintana, Santiago and Axelrod.

 

In those last 2 scenarios, the bullpen doesn't matter because you're already punting the ball into 2015.

 

Trading Peavy, Crain, Thornton, Lindstrom, Rios and Ramirez...you can make arguments either way about whether you can compete against the Tigers in 2014, but it's going to be inconclusive at best.

 

The White Sox are not going to go through a season with roughly 1.5-1.6 million in attendance, trade those 6 guys, then turn around and put a lot of money into rebuilding the bullpen for 2014. It's just not going to happen.

 

 

 

 

[fathom]

If the Sox get rid of Rios and Peavy, then it is a rebuild for next year. It wouldn't be the worst thing for this franchise, as they'd need a replica of 2005 where every FA they brought in excelled in order to compete next season. I don't see that happening, especially with the health issues of the top free agents like Morales, Utley, Granderson and McCann.

[2nd_city_saint787]

DUH. Now you're copying the idea from a thread already started.

 

I'll take Granderson in CF, Utley at 2B, Morales at 1B and McCann at catcher.

 

GENIUS!!!!

 

THEN, you can utilize your bullpen construction idea and nobody will argue with you because we're actually capable of contending with that line-up.

 

Now all you have to do is go out and get JR to open up the pocketbook and convince them to play for the White Sox when we're going to finish this season with 84-88 losses at the current rate.

 

To be fair he was going off what I said...But I see a DA/Marty type feud going on here.

 

 

 

 

[fathom]

I know the Sox have said for a few years now that they want to rebuild while also trying to contend. That seemed possible coming into this year, but seems like more of a longshot going forward the next few years due to a variety of things (Danks' shoulder, Dunn's regression and the lack of development of young hitters). It's going to be awfully hard to build up the talent fast enough over the next year or so in order to compete with the Tigers and the rest of the AL best. The Sox aren't going to be able to pull a Boston and be able to bring in a ton of high-priced free agents.

[fathom]

Okay, I am done as you can't ever stay on subject.

 

If we lose a hundred games next year, I'll buy you a bottle of champagne for celebration. One step closer to Kansas City's success!!

 

If the Sox lose 100 and have the #1 pick in the draft, that's better than if they lose 90 and pick 5th or so. Carlos Rodon is a special pitcher.

[caulfield12]

If the Sox get rid of Rios and Peavy, then it is a rebuild for next year. It wouldn't be the worst thing for this franchise, as they'd need a replica of 2005 where every FA they brought in excelled in order to compete next season. I don't see that happening, especially with the health issues of the top free agents like Morales, Utley, Granderson and McCann.

 

 

And there were so many unique circumstances there.

 

Dye coming off a major leg injury that many thought would be career-threatening. Pods coming off a .240 something average, although his SB's were up.

 

Iguchi only scouted by KW via video (we could use a random Korean/Japanese import at SS, just to show the rest of the team how to play fundamentally sound baseball).

 

AJ with the Brett Tomko/playing cards/college football and pro wrestling standoff with the SF Giants.

 

Yankees dumping El Duque/Contreras and Freddy Garcia being related to Ozzie Guillen. (For example, if Jose could have beaten the Red Sox consistently, he never would have been traded to the Sox).

 

Hermanson, Politte and Cotts coming out of nowhere, particularly Hermanson.

 

A reliever with the best stuff in baseball tucked away at BIRM that the Angels simply got fed up with and gave away.

Edited June 8, 2013 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

Okay, I am done as you can't ever stay on subject.

 

If we lose a hundred games next year, I'll buy you a bottle of champagne for celebration. One step closer to Kansas City's success!!

 

 

The topic was the bullpen you wanted when you're bringing in all these guys like Granderson, Morales and Olt (which means trading Rios, presumably)...although you didn't state it that way, I suppose one was just to assume that's what you meant.

 

My scenario was the exact opposite, the worst-case scenario where they were in full rebuild mode, however we choose to define "full rebuild" around here these days.

 

In that scenario, as Fathom has correctly pointed out, patching together a bullpen comprised of 2-3 veterans who can be leveraged into prospects at the trade deadline is LESS IMPORTANT than having a top 1-2-3 pick in the first round of the draft.

 

If you want to argue that point, go ahead.

[caulfield12]

Yes, thank you for clarifying. I actually quoted you in the post and said you were "being optimistic" as well. Caulfield tends ignore details and would rather say I'm a copy cat.

 

I appreciate the comparison to DA/Marty though. Dick Allen is one of the best posters on the site here and I'd be happy to be compared with him. The similarities between Marty and Caulfield are them not being able to defend their arguments. At least in Marty's case he keeps his argument succinct and doesn't go off on irrelevant tangents like Caulfied.

 

"bbilek will not be a part of the front office that constructs the next White Sox World Series winner."

Trademark pending.

Two sentences for brevity and pithiness, if you're counting at home. Make that four, lol.

 

Hopefully Marty won't sue you for libel/slander by associating him with me.

Edited June 8, 2013 by caulfield12

[fathom]

You should never go into a season with a completely garbage bullpen. You can rebuild while having a few solid veterans in the pen. Heck, a team like the Marlins have some relievers that every team in baseball would like to have.

[Balta1701]

Just so someone says this...slight topic change....

 

It would be criminally stupid to make a major deal until someone is certain what is going to happen with the Miami Steroid Suspensions.

 

That could/would blow the market up for players.

[caulfield12]

You should never go into a season with a completely garbage bullpen. You can rebuild while having a few solid veterans in the pen. Heck, a team like the Marlins have some relievers that every team in baseball would like to have.

 

 

I doubt they're actually going to trade Reed.

 

Nathan Jones and Daniel Webb alone give you three quality arms without considering all the other myriad possibilities.

 

They're certainly not going to be spending Linebrink and Dotel money and giving 2-3-4 year contracts, either.

[caulfield12]

I never said anything about signing Granderson, Morales or trading for Olt to you. It was another poster's post that I went off of. No on around here seems to recognize that Floyd, Konerko and potentially Peavy and Rios

 

We know your scenario, put together the world's s***tiest bullpen and hope we lose a 100 games.

 

I don't think Fathom proved that all. He wants us to be the worst team in baseball so we can get Rodon. Not only is that not going to happen if you are a fan of this team you should not want it to. I don't think he ever said anything about my views on the bullpen either.

 

 

YOU HAVE IT COMPLETELY BACKWARDS.

 

IF THEY TRADE ALL THEIR VETERAN BULLPEN ARMS, RIOS, RAMIREZ, PEAVY....THEN IT DOESN'T MATTER TO ME WHAT THEY DO WITH THE BULLPEN FOR 2014. THE PEN WOULD START WITH REED, JONES AND WEBB.

 

IF THEY DON'T, IT DOES MATTER BECAUSE A WEAK BULLPEN WILL KILL THE CONFIDENCE OF ANY TEAM TRYING TO LEARN HOW TO WIN.