Do you want Ventura back as manager next year?

[Balta1701]

Yes.

Veteran-loaded or working through a bunch of rookies?

[caulfield12]

Veteran-loaded or working through a bunch of rookies?

 

Those teams with AJ, Koskie, Cuddyer, C. Guzman, Rivas, Mientkiewicz, Jacque Jones and Hunter all entering the majors at roughly the same time...in the 1999-2001 period, they played a completely different game than this year's White Sox team.

 

No comparison.

 

And they had Hawk's all-time favorite, Brad Radke.

Edited June 20, 2013 by caulfield12

[Eminor3rd]

I typically think the manager doesn't mean as much as most people do, but I do blame Robin for the poor defense. I really thought he did a great job drilling the team on it last year -- they made such a huge point to mention how the Sox were the only team taking infield before every game -- that I really don't think there's any excuse for them to be so bad this year. More practice. If you play like Bush leaguers, you gotta work to get better.

[caulfield12]

I typically think the manager doesn't mean as much as most people do, but I do blame Robin for the poor defense. I really thought he did a great job drilling the team on it last year -- they made such a huge point to mention how the Sox were the only team taking infield before every game -- that I really don't think there's any excuse for them to be so bad this year. More practice. If you play like Bush leaguers, you gotta work to get better.

 

 

Actually, the players should simply be forced to read all the SoxTalk and WSI threads on "Sox defense/fundamentals/base-running" for 2 hours every morning...forcing them to come to the park at 9 or 10 instead of 11 or 12.

 

That should do it.

[Steve9347]

Next year will be a throwaway year. Sonic the Hedgehog could manage the team and I wouldn't give a rip.

 

Given we'll likely have a lot of s***ty players, someone who preaches fundamentals would be nice.

Edited June 20, 2013 by Steve9347

[GreenSox]

Ventura's managing miscues continue to escalate. Yesterday, he's playing steal a base and pinch run in the 7th inning, playing for 1 run. The result: Jordan Danks instead of Viciedo gets the 9th inning at bat.

Now that philosophy is questionable for any team, but particularly curious for this team, completely devoid of any bench bat at all (the only close, Keppinger, was also used in the 7th, and to replace a decent hitter).

[witesoxfan]

Ventura's managing miscues continue to escalate. Yesterday, he's playing steal a base and pinch run in the 7th inning, playing for 1 run. The result: Jordan Danks instead of Viciedo gets the 9th inning at bat.

Now that philosophy is questionable for any team, but particularly curious for this team, completely devoid of any bench bat at all (the only close, Keppinger, was also used in the 7th, and to replace a decent hitter).

 

As if Viciedo against Greg Holland would have yielded a different result

Edited June 24, 2013 by witesoxfan

[greg775]

Sox have lost games in all imaginable ways the last month of last season and all this season. There's been no difference between he and Ozzie. Good pitching under both managers; losing games every way possible last 3 years under Ozzie and during Ventura era.

[Balta1701]

Sox have lost games in all imaginable ways the last month of last season and all this season. There's been no difference between he and Ozzie. Good pitching under both managers; losing games every way possible last 3 years under Ozzie and during Ventura era.

Last year was a big, big difference in focus and preparation. This year makes Ozzies teams look prepared and ready.

[witesoxfan]

Sox have lost games in all imaginable ways the last month of last season and all this season. There's been no difference between he and Ozzie. Good pitching under both managers; losing games every way possible last 3 years under Ozzie and during Ventura era.

 

Thankfully, Ventura doesn't talk about how much he drinks nor does he throw young pitchers under the bus for failing to hit players nor does he use homosexual slurs against certain sports journalists.

[greg775]

Thankfully, Ventura doesn't talk about how much he drinks nor does he throw young pitchers under the bus for failing to hit players nor does he use homosexual slurs against certain sports journalists.

 

That is a plus in Robin's corner. I was just pointing out the results are the same: very very bad baseball (good pitching).

[witesoxfan]

That is a plus in Robin's corner. I was just pointing out the results are the same: very very bad baseball (good pitching).

 

It has been, and the team just lacks talent this year. A little blow up will be good for this team in the long run.

[kitekrazy]

Last year was a big, big difference in focus and preparation. This year makes Ozzies teams look prepared and ready.

 

I've read articles from those outside of the Sox kingdom have said KW built teams have always been weak in defense and fundamentals until Ozzie got there. At some point managers get too much praise and blame for these things. Some of the MLB players have probably been playing baseball since age 6. How far does some amatuer coach or parent let a player's weakness slip by that even a minor league system can't fix.

New coaches and managers often make improvements apparent but eventually those players slip back to their old ways. It's trying to fix a habit that existed for 10 plus years. Just like any bad habit the responsibility is more on the individual to fix. This is often evident in hard throwing pitchers who have a short career. Change may be short term failure and they go back to their old ways.

 

[kitekrazy]

Next year will be a throwaway year. Sonic the Hedgehog could manage the team and I wouldn't give a rip.

 

Given we'll likely have a lot of s***ty players, someone who preaches fundamentals would be nice.

 

We really don't know that. Many thought the 05 team would not be dominant. Last season many thought this team would flirt with 4th place. Baseball can be the least predictable sport.

 

[Balta1701]

I've read articles from those outside of the Sox kingdom have said KW built teams have always been weak in defense and fundamentals until Ozzie got there. At some point managers get too much praise and blame for these things. Some of the MLB players have probably been playing baseball since age 6. How far does some amatuer coach or parent let a player's weakness slip by that even a minor league system can't fix.

New coaches and managers often make improvements apparent but eventually those players slip back to their old ways. It's trying to fix a habit that existed for 10 plus years. Just like any bad habit the responsibility is more on the individual to fix. This is often evident in hard throwing pitchers who have a short career. Change may be short term failure and they go back to their old ways.

You can say that all you want and I now have my answer, it's the 2011, 2012, and 2013 white sox.

 

In the space of the last 3 seasons, we've seen by far the best prepared team I've ever witnessed and 2 of the worst prepared teams I've ever witnessed using basically the same players much of the time.

 

That hangs on the coaching staff and preparation. Last season's sudden appearance of incredible preparation and then this season's sudden appearance of terrible preparation tell me that the manager makes a huge difference in how he's preparing a team for the year.

[kitekrazy]

So why did a rookie manager part with something that worked? Did this pattern exist before? Even Manuel claimed they worked on things in ST that seems to reflect the opposite once the season starts. You can only change a leopard's spots so often.

[Balta1701]

So why did a rookie manager part with something that worked? Did this pattern exist before? Even Manuel claimed they worked on things in ST that seems to reflect the opposite once the season starts. You can only change a leopard's spots so often.

Last year we heard over and over and over again that it was the most fundamentals-oriented spring training any of them ever went through. This year we haven't heard a peep even resembling that.

 

Whether it was the WBC schedule, the fact that the team tired out last year, whatever...they didn't do the fundamentals focus they did last year and the results speak for themselves. We've given up more unearned runs this year so far than we did all of last year. Not to mention the missed cutoff men, etc.

 

The most blatant one is the rundowns. outside of Youk who wasn't there for ST, it seemed like every rundown last year was executed perfectly. That's just a skill to practice; run at the guy and then 1 throw. We nailed that just about every time last year. This year I don't think I've seen it done correctly once. No one practiced it. Not a soul.

 

Maybe he didn't realize how well it worked/ how important it was to last year's success, maybe he stopped caring, maybe the players stopped caring, maybe he decided the team was too tired at the end of the year. Whatever the reason was, I'd have extended him several years last offseason for hwo good the team looked. I want him fired now for how bad this team looks.

[Dick Allen]

Last year we heard over and over and over again that it was the most fundamentals-oriented spring training any of them ever went through. This year we haven't heard a peep even resembling that.

 

Whether it was the WBC schedule, the fact that the team tired out last year, whatever...they didn't do the fundamentals focus they did last year and the results speak for themselves. We've given up more unearned runs this year so far than we did all of last year. Not to mention the missed cutoff men, etc.

 

The most blatant one is the rundowns. outside of Youk who wasn't there for ST, it seemed like every rundown last year was executed perfectly. That's just a skill to practice; run at the guy and then 1 throw. We nailed that just about every time last year. This year I don't think I've seen it done correctly once. No one practiced it. Not a soul.

 

Maybe he didn't realize how well it worked/ how important it was to last year's success, maybe he stopped caring, maybe the players stopped caring, maybe he decided the team was too tired at the end of the year. Whatever the reason was, I'd have extended him several years last offseason for hwo good the team looked. I want him fired now for how bad this team looks.

 

If you weren't at spring training, i really think you are speaking out of turn. Like blaming Ramirez's error on spring training. Even if he didn't go to sprimg training, close to 80 games later, he should have it down. How is it if you practice it in February, you will be perfect at it in September, but then you forget all about it? The fundamentals are emphisized every day.

 

The only place where I have seen it said they worked less on fundamentals in spring training this year is on this board by people who weren't there either year.if it were true, i would think someone, somewhere would hve mentioned it t least once.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Dick Allen

[mikep]

I agree with your sentiments and it is still my belief that Robin is the right guy to work with the younger players. Robin has made some questionable game management decisions, but how many games has Alexi Ramirez' defense and lack of clutch hitting cost us (among numerous other player faults).

Robin is more suited for a coaching position.That being said,he would have been helped by being a coach first.

[caulfield12]

If you weren't at spring training, i really think you are speaking out of turn. Like blaming Ramirez's error on spring training. Even if he didn't go to sprimg training, close to 80 games later, he should have it down. How is it if you practice it in February, you will be perfect at it in September, but then you forget all about it? The fundamentals are emphisized every day.

 

The only place where I have seen it said they worked less on fundamentals in spring training this year is on this board by people who weren't there either year.if it were true, i would think someone, somewhere would hve mentioned it t least once.

 

 

What other explanation do you have for a team going from roughly 15 games over .500 in September to 17-18-19 games under .500 in the course of six months?

 

That's an incredible shift of over 30 games in the standings.

 

Not unlike the last 2 months of 2006 and then on into the 2007 season.

 

With basically the same players, other than 3B, Keppinger at 2B for 1/2 of 2013, and Flowers/AJ.

 

It can't simply be, "well, Konerko got old and the magical defense/effect of Gordon/AJ was missing." That's like blaming 2006 and 2007 on the missing gritty presence of Everett and Rowand. There has to be more to it.

Edited June 25, 2013 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

If you weren't at spring training, i really think you are speaking out of turn. Like blaming Ramirez's error on spring training. Even if he didn't go to sprimg training, close to 80 games later, he should have it down. How is it if you practice it in February, you will be perfect at it in September, but then you forget all about it? The fundamentals are emphisized every day.

 

The only place where I have seen it said they worked less on fundamentals in spring training this year is on this board by people who weren't there either year.if it were true, i would think someone, somewhere would hve mentioned it t least once.

One error, fine.

 

Its been less than 1/2 of a season and Alexei Ramirez has more errors already this year than he did over the entire season last year.

[caulfield12]

And it's not simple enough to go with the explanation of "he's getting older/regressing," because his offense and speed/aggressiveness on the basepaths are comparable or even better than last season.

 

Or do we all except the "Ramirez has always been susceptible to wearing down because of his thin frame and he just hasn't been rested at all" theory?

[Balta1701]

And it's not simple enough to go with the explanation of "he's getting older/regressing," because his offense and speed/aggressiveness on the basepaths are comparable or even better than last season.

 

Or do we all except the "Ramirez has always been susceptible to wearing down because of his thin frame and he just hasn't been rested at all" theory?

If that one is the case...guess who makes the lineup card out.

[Dick Allen]

One error, fine.

 

Its been less than 1/2 of a season and Alexei Ramirez has more errors already this year than he did over the entire season last year.

And I'm saying if you think he booted the ball yesterday because of spring training, something you have no proof of your claim, I think that's crazy.

[caulfield12]

And I'm saying if you think he booted the ball yesterday because of spring training, something you have no proof of your claim, I think that's crazy.

 

 

What's your intuition telling you, then?

 

Is it Ventura being too lax with players who consistently are making mental/physical errors and demonstrating a lack of concentration/focus that's almost inexplicable? The other coaches are simply not doing their jobs, like Parent?

 

Bad luck?

Edited June 25, 2013 by caulfield12