Do you want Ventura back as manager next year?

[Balta1701]

How far? How many innings? How many pitches? Where is that exact spot?

7 innings, 110+ pitches seems like a really good spot.

[southsider2k5]

7 innings, 110+ pitches seems like a really good spot.

 

He could have been hurt at any single point during the game... pitch 1, pitch 10, pitch 100. If you are that worried about his health, he shouldn't have gone out there at all.

[GreenSox]

He had the 6th and the 7th to do that. Especially after the 6th with Fielder and V Mart coming up to start the 7th and every pitch a potential for ruining the immediately future of the franchise should a freak accident occur. No one risks that when you have the top trading chip. No one . I brought up this in the fifth inning in the game thread and was expecting Robin to do it but much much earlier.

It was unnecessary. Just another in a long list of moves by Ventura that show he has no sense of the organization.

Jake has hardly been an icon here anyway where a standing O is absolutely necessary. Ventura had other opportunities to do that and before 118 pitches (can't wait to see his next team put 118 on his back).

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

He could have been hurt at any single point during the game... pitch 1, pitch 10, pitch 100. If you are that worried about his health, he shouldn't have gone out there at all.

You made that point already and once again I will tell you that risk was necessary. I realize we both have been watching baseball a long time and I seriously cannot figure out why you are clinging to that.

[Wanne]

How far? How many innings? How many pitches? Where is that exact spot?

 

How bout a standing O at the end of the 7th after the 3rd out walking off the field...force the issue.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Wanne

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

How far? How many innings? How many pitches? Where is that exact spot?

ANy time after he went 5 .I said at the beginning or the game thread I expected 5-6 innings max if he did well. You can check.

[southsider2k5]

You made that point already and once again I will tell you that risk was necessary. I realize we both have been watching baseball a long time and I seriously cannot figure out why you are clinging to that.

 

I can't figure out why someone is clinging to the odds of a freak accident at pitch 112 being any greater than the first 111.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Plus, "2 big league starts to show you've recovered from an injury" really is better than 1.

Apparently or else all those scouts in the stands were scouting everyone but PV.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I can't figure out why someone is clinging to the odds of a freak accident at pitch 112 being any greater than the first 111.

Not that I ever said that but feel free to misquote me . I said any time after the 5th or 6th from the beginning . It was unnecesary risk plain and simple Maybe 99 out of 100 times nothing happens but sorry injuries happen all the time and risking one when he is the biggest pitching chip on the market is curious at best and totally irresponsible and idiotic at worst.

[Wanne]

My point isn't the "risk of injury"...it was leaving a very solid outing at that. It's just smart baseball. Lindstrom then Reed...wasn't rocket science...

[BigEdWalsh]

Would anyone vote yes anymore?

 

Someone should redo the poll because I'm obviously not the only one who would change his vote. I voted Yes when the poll was first posted but shortly thereafter changed my mind. The extremely poor play after the Sox reached .500 at what was it 24-24 (?) just continued and continued. I had honestly thought they would come out of it but it became pretty evident they weren't going to and I think besides some much needed player changes there needs to be a managerial/coaching staff change. Sorry Robin, you've lost my vote.

[Balta1701]

I can't figure out why someone is clinging to the odds of a freak accident at pitch 112 being any greater than the first 111.

Turn it the other way. What possible benefit is there from running him out there? Give me a cost/benefit analysis here. Maybe the cost hasn't gone up much, but what's the reward? Are you going to run him out there the whole inning and throw him 135 pitches? They weren't just leaving him out there for a righty to bring in a lefty for the next batter since a righty came in anyway. The bullpen didn't need a 1 batter shorter outing, they're not that tired? What on Earth was the goal?

[Dick Allen]

Turn it the other way. What possible benefit is there from running him out there? Give me a cost/benefit analysis here. Maybe the cost hasn't gone up much, but what's the reward? Are you going to run him out there the whole inning and throw him 135 pitches? They weren't just leaving him out there for a righty to bring in a lefty for the next batter since a righty came in anyway. The bullpen didn't need a 1 batter shorter outing, they're not that tired? What on Earth was the goal?

He had been dealing. As far as I know Jake didn't get hurt so all the complaining is about nothing. What if Hahn doesn't trade him before his next start? Should he be skipped?

 

Everyone is always so worried about guys playing and the potential to get hurt. Thibs was criticized for having Rose in the game when he got hurt, when as the people who complained said, the game was pretty much decided. Now those same people complained when they knew the Bulls had less of a chance of winnng a championship as they had in losing the game when Rose blew out his knee, for Rose NOT playing this past season.

 

Everyone up in arms over Peavy coming out in the 8th would be a lot more effective if, you know, he actually did get hurt,.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Dick Allen

[southsider2k5]

Turn it the other way. What possible benefit is there from running him out there? Give me a cost/benefit analysis here. Maybe the cost hasn't gone up much, but what's the reward? Are you going to run him out there the whole inning and throw him 135 pitches? They weren't just leaving him out there for a righty to bring in a lefty for the next batter since a righty came in anyway. The bullpen didn't need a 1 batter shorter outing, they're not that tired? What on Earth was the goal?

 

It is a sign of respect for one of the most popular players in the organization from a manager who actually gets how to be a players manager, and doesn't crave the spotlight. The meltdown people are having about it is pretty legendary. He's never going to pitch for the White Sox again.

[Balta1701]

It is a sign of respect for one of the most popular players in the organization from a manager who actually gets how to be a players manager, and doesn't crave the spotlight. The meltdown people are having about it is pretty legendary. He's never going to pitch for the White Sox again.

And from now on I get to laugh at him walking off the field after one last unnecessary home run, rather than after actual applause and a strikeout. Seems like a stellar FU from that players manager. If I wanted to say that peavy deserved nothing more than polite applause, that helps.

[southsider2k5]

And from now on I get to laugh at him walking off the field after one last unnecessary home run, rather than after actual applause and a strikeout. Seems like a stellar FU from that players manager. If I wanted to say that peavy deserved nothing more than polite applause, that helps.

 

The team was 39-59. It literally didn't matter what happened in that AB. It totally wasn't the point. No one seems to care about that though.

[ChiSox59]

Someone should redo the poll because I'm obviously not the only one who would change his vote. I voted Yes when the poll was first posted but shortly thereafter changed my mind. The extremely poor play after the Sox reached .500 at what was it 24-24 (?) just continued and continued. I had honestly thought they would come out of it but it became pretty evident they weren't going to and I think besides some much needed player changes there needs to be a managerial/coaching staff change. Sorry Robin, you've lost my vote.

 

I concur.

[Dick Allen]

It is going to be Jake's last start in Chicago as a White Sox and he wanted to give him some love from the fans, and give the fans a chance to give him a standing O.

 

I get it. It is a classy move from a true players manager to recognize Jake and his impact on the team, players, and fans. I've got no problem with it.

That is what it was. If they still were playing by the old rules he could have pulled him after he warmed up, but you have to face a batter now . Why so many are enraged is beyond me. Just like the poster who thinks Ventura is "losing the team" based on the Rios and Sale incidents. Letting Rios get away with that could lose the clubhouse. Rios' head is so far up his ass, he has been pulled before for the same thing and still thinks Ventura embarrassed him by pulling him from the game after the next half inning. No Alex, you embarrassed yourself and your team by loafing again, behavior he even said was unacceptable.As for Sale, the first thing he did after the game was talk to Robin and apologize. He understood he was wrong.

 

Players know Robin will treat them like grown men and he has their back.

[CyAcosta41]

I detest all of the "X should be fired immediately if he does Y" comments. As we al know, baseball is a marathon and not a sprint.

 

That said, I thought the decision to bring Peavy out for the 8th (and it doesn't matter one iota what Peavy himself wanted -- the manager is the boss and has final say) was absolutely horrendous. Epic horrendous. And, unfortunately, I see it as yet one more indication that RV offers nothing remotely special as a manager -- he has no special skills in in-game managing, his players don't seem to run through walls to play for him, and, as decisions like this tell me, he has no overall feel for managing the roster in a game within the overall context of the team's efforts to get better (meaning, be aware of your trading chips if you know they are, in fact, trading chips). I'm not in the Robin must go camp, but I think he's no better than "ordinary" as a manager and I couldn't care less if he were replaced.

 

One more word about that "epically horrendous" decision. It doesn't matter what actually happened in the 8th! You judge baseball decisions at the time they are made as cost/benefit wise good or bad decisions. The results are what factually happened; the decision itself is good/bad before the result happened. And that applies to trades too. For instance, many would contend that KW made a good decision to trade for David Wells, even though the results were not good. After 7 innings, Peavy (a/k/a your prime trading chip) had just pitched an excellent game against a good offense on a tough day to pitch at The Cell. What? 7 full innings, 3 runs on only 3 hits (2 of them HRs), finishing with a strike out, a moderate standing-o, and hugs from his teammates. I turned off the TV because the man was definitely done. He clearly didn't have his best stuff, but Mr. Competitor managed to pitch a terrific game, and left the GM with a very solid line score to boast about. The bullpen was fresh -- with Lindstrom and (possibly) Reed to showcase as well -- what possible reason could there be to bring Peavy out for the 8th? Oh, we'll hear about Jake insisting, or Robin wanting to give his vet that mid-inning send-off, but, sorry folks, from any sort of reasonable cost/benefit analysis there was nothing whatsoever to be gained (and one can't forget we're talking about a "trading chip" (!!!) ) for bringing him in for 1, 2, or 3 more batters, compared to countless negative things that COULD happen. The worst thing that could happen was an injury (for needless additional pitching after you made your point). Didn't happen; praise the Lord. But the next worst thing actually did happen -- another HR, diminishing his overall line, reinforcing (perhaps) his lack of endurance. But I don't really care that much about the result of the decision itself, because the process -- the decision itself BEFORE the result played-out -- just sucked. No upside; all downside; and it trouble me -- GREATLY -- that our manager didn't instantly have the "feel" for that.

 

This question is inherently subjective -- do YOU (in this case, ME) want RV back. I don't. And this lack of "feel" is a big part of why I don't.

 

GO SOX (in this case, GO Mr. Rick Hahn - currently the most important man in the franchise).

[LittleHurt05]

With how important Peavy's trade value is, why does everybody think this was all Robin's decision? I guarantee Rick Hahn gave him instructions as to how much he should or can pitch. He was still under 120 pitches. Any team looking to trade for him wants to see him pitch deep into games, you can't pull him in the 5th after 90+ and expect teams to be impressed. He's not an 18 year old draft pick, he's a pro being called on to win late season games.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

With how important Peavy's trade value is, why does everybody think this was all Robin's decision? I guarantee Rick Hahn gave him instructions as to how much he should or can pitch. He was still under 120 pitches. Any team looking to trade for him wants to see him pitch deep into games, you can't pull him in the 5th after 90+ and expect teams to be impressed. He's not an 18 year old draft pick, he's a pro being called on to win late season games.

Do you honestly think Hahn would say pitch him long because the other teams want to see that ? Peavy's injury was not arm related. It was a rib and he was off 4-6 weeks. No one is expected to pitch that long under those circumstances . If anything Hahn would be saying get him out of there. Protect our asset, protect the future of the franchise not let's showcase him longer because 1 or 2 more innings after being off for so long will prove he's a man to other GM's.

[CyAcosta41]

Do you honestly think Hahn would say pitch him long because the other teams want to see that ? Peavy's injury was not arm related. It was a rib and he was off 4-6 weeks. No one is expected to pitch that long under those circumstances . If anything Hahn would be saying get him out of there. Protect our asset, protect the future of the franchise not let's showcase him longer because 1 or 2 more innings after being off for so long will prove he's a man to other GM's.

 

EXACTLY! It was no secret that Peavy had been out over 4 weeks ... and that this was his second major league start (third start total) since an injury that prevented him from vigorous exercising. And yet he WAS "the man" ... pitching a full 7 (the generally accepted litmus test of an extended start) ... and he threw his last fastball at 92 on his 111th pitch that closed out the 7th (with many organizations rarely letting ANY starting pitcher even hit the 110 pitch mark).

 

Jake proved he could be a counted-upon pro to any acquiring team in the midst of a pennant race. Horrendous decision. NOTHING to be gained by trotting him out in the 8th inning).

 

[LittleHurt05]

Do you honestly think Hahn would say pitch him long because the other teams want to see that ? Peavy's injury was not arm related. It was a rib and he was off 4-6 weeks. No one is expected to pitch that long under those circumstances . If anything Hahn would be saying get him out of there. Protect our asset, protect the future of the franchise not let's showcase him longer because 1 or 2 more innings after being off for so long will prove he's a man to other GM's.

 

Do you honestly think Hahn wouldn't call the clubhouse after the 7th and say "Peavy is done for the day" if it was that big of a deal? Hahn can pull him whenever he wants, but he didn't. It was 118 pitches, not 148.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I detest all of the "X should be fired immediately if he does Y" comments. As we al know, baseball is a marathon and not a sprint.

 

That said, I thought the decision to bring Peavy out for the 8th (and it doesn't matter one iota what Peavy himself wanted -- the manager is the boss and has final say) was absolutely horrendous. Epic horrendous. And, unfortunately, I see it as yet one more indication that RV offers nothing remotely special as a manager -- he has no special skills in in-game managing, his players don't seem to run through walls to play for him, and, as decisions like this tell me, he has no overall feel for managing the roster in a game within the overall context of the team's efforts to get better (meaning, be aware of your trading chips if you know they are, in fact, trading chips). I'm not in the Robin must go camp, but I think he's no better than "ordinary" as a manager and I couldn't care less if he were replaced.

 

One more word about that "epically horrendous" decision. It doesn't matter what actually happened in the 8th! You judge baseball decisions at the time they are made as cost/benefit wise good or bad decisions. The results are what factually happened; the decision itself is good/bad before the result happened. And that applies to trades too. For instance, many would contend that KW made a good decision to trade for David Wells, even though the results were not good. After 7 innings, Peavy (a/k/a your prime trading chip) had just pitched an excellent game against a good offense on a tough day to pitch at The Cell. What? 7 full innings, 3 runs on only 3 hits (2 of them HRs), finishing with a strike out, a moderate standing-o, and hugs from his teammates. I turned off the TV because the man was definitely done. He clearly didn't have his best stuff, but Mr. Competitor managed to pitch a terrific game, and left the GM with a very solid line score to boast about. The bullpen was fresh -- with Lindstrom and (possibly) Reed to showcase as well -- what possible reason could there be to bring Peavy out for the 8th? Oh, we'll hear about Jake insisting, or Robin wanting to give his vet that mid-inning send-off, but, sorry folks, from any sort of reasonable cost/benefit analysis there was nothing whatsoever to be gained (and one can't forget we're talking about a "trading chip" (!!!) ) for bringing him in for 1, 2, or 3 more batters, compared to countless negative things that COULD happen. The worst thing that could happen was an injury (for needless additional pitching after you made your point). Didn't happen; praise the Lord. But the next worst thing actually did happen -- another HR, diminishing his overall line, reinforcing (perhaps) his lack of endurance. But I don't really care that much about the result of the decision itself, because the process -- the decision itself BEFORE the result played-out -- just sucked. No upside; all downside; and it trouble me -- GREATLY -- that our manager didn't instantly have the "feel" for that.

 

This question is inherently subjective -- do YOU (in this case, ME) want RV back. I don't. And this lack of "feel" is a big part of why I don't.

 

GO SOX (in this case, GO Mr. Rick Hahn - currently the most important man in the franchise).

Cy I have repeatedly said its not the results that matter over and over just like you. I love the Sox . I am more a White Sox apologist than anything if there is a way to characterize my thinking. I was in favor of Robin . I said why not ? Give him a chance but now I have seen enough. Cy you are 100% correct in your assessment of the situation. It's not about Robin or Jake or if he got hurt or if he didn't. It's about risk and reward, and protecting the biggest piece the Sox have had at the deadine in a very very long time, so much so that the next chance to be competitive again in a short period of time may hinge on him.

 

If you're going to put all that at risk to showcase him another inning or get him an ovation then I have serious doubts that you understand baseball. Kudo's to you sir for your support.

Edited July 26, 2013 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Do you honestly think Hahn wouldn't call the clubhouse after the 7th and say "Peavy is done for the day" if it was that big of a deal? Hahn can pull him whenever he wants, but he didn't. It was 118 pitches, not 148.

I can't give anyone the benefit of the doubt and assume he would call even if you or I think he should've given the circumstances. I thought Robin would get him out of the game after 5 -6 nnings max didnt happen. Ok after the 7th surely. Nope brought him out again.Pretty much everyone in the game thread was in shock. They all understand what's at stake It has nothing to do with the pitch count, 88 98 108 118 148. PROTECT the asset ,the risk outweighs the reward !

Edited July 26, 2013 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside