NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden

[Balta1701]

if he goes to a newspaper or his superiors, he can be a whistleblower. Going off to China and considering retirement in Russia makes him a traitor in my eyes. We can catch China doing the same stuff red-handed, and the 'court of public opinion' really doesn't do s***, since they are all afraid of China. However the US gets caught doing this and we are expected to prostrate ourselves before the world in shame.

He did go to a newspaper.

[cabiness42]

if he goes to a newspaper or his superiors, he can be a whistleblower. Going off to China and considering retirement in Russia makes him a traitor in my eyes. We can catch China doing the same stuff red-handed, and the 'court of public opinion' really doesn't do s***, since they are all afraid of China. However the US gets caught doing this and we are expected to prostrate ourselves before the world in shame.

 

It doesn't matter who he went to, he's not a whistleblower because he wasn't reporting on illegal activity. He was disclosing classified government information on a program that is perfectly legal as a means of turning public opinion against the law in question. That's a crime.

 

[Jenksismyhero]

As a warning, if you came here for a Edward Snowden hero worship conversation, click back now.

 

Forgive me, but I have to come somewhere to rant about this. Reddit and the rest of the circle-jerking hive mind Internet are heralding this guy as a hero of freedom for what, IMO, any intelligent person already knew was going on.

 

First, I didn't need this "leak" to verify anything. It's not like this was a secret that the NSA spies on Americans via the use of the Patriot Act. This is why they passed the Patriot Act. Is everyone f***ing stupid? Did people just assume they passed this freedom snatching power trip of a law for no reason? The second they passed the Patriot Act, expanded it, and re-passed it, I figured everyone KNEW this was going on. Having some douchebag "leak" it, after he was actively taking part in it for who knows how long doesn't impress me. Stop electing a congress with an approval rating such as they have and maybe you wouldn't end up with such "surprisingly unsurprising news".

 

Second, people like Snowden, Assange, and Manning cause more harm in the end than any good they do, as most of this is irresponsible, un-vetted opinions, OR carelessly released information. For example, this is hurting Microsoft, Google, Yahoo and Apple, and most of the reason why is simply incorrect and stupid assumption. Based on this idiot's comments today, he says, and I quote, "Their denials went through several revisions as it become more and more clear they were misleading and included identical, specific language across companies. As a result of these disclosures and the clout of these companies, we’re finally beginning to see more transparency and better details about these programs for the first time since their inception. They are legally compelled to comply and maintain their silence in regard to specifics of the program, but that does not comply them from ethical obligation. If for example Facebook, Google, Microsoft, and Apple refused to provide this cooperation with the Intelligence Community, what do you think the government would do? Shut them down?"

 

This is such a load of bulls***, I don't even know where to begin. First, their denials haven't changed, at all. From the get go, Google, Microsoft, Yahoo and Apple denied direct involvement in PRISM, and the information they've released has all been done so on court orders. They haven't changed this message, either, as he claims. Second, he says they are legally compelled to oblige, which they are, but goes on to say that does not comply them from ethical obligation? What the f*** does that even mean? He goes on to say if one of these huge companies was to refuse to provide the information, under court order, what do you think the government would do, shut them down? Seriously? Did he seriously ask this? Is this guy like 13 years old? The government can make doing business, or getting anything done VERY hard when you don't comply with their legal court orders. Hell, they can make your life hard when you don't comply with them asking you nicely, let alone the fact that they have VALID f***ing court orders.

 

Seriously, stop hero worshiping morons and start thinking for yourselves. The Patriot Act exists...it wouldn't exist if they weren't spying on you, you don't need idiots like this to "verify" anything for you.

 

I don't know that this guy is a savior , but I don't think he's the worst person in the world either. And at least he's created a national dialogue about the issue.

 

As to the bolded, I'm not sure that the majority of Americans realized their government was creating ginormous databases of everyone, not just people suspected of having terrorist leanings (at minimum) or frankly people that are brown and muslim (at maximum). Yes, the Patriot Act has expanded the role of warrantless wire taps, but I also assumed there had to be SOME argument as to how that warrantless tap was needed for national security. Literally the only reason they have now is "everyone is a terrorist."

 

[Jenksismyhero]

I agree on the bold, wholeheartedly.

 

But, this is what happens when you forfeit freedom for a false sense of security. And then continue to re-elect those that took those freedoms from you/us, again, all for a false sense of security. We allowed them to do it at airports, and here we are, years later with them continuing to use security methods and systems that have been proven to not work, and we are going to allow them to do this, too...because, well...it's legal. They're not doing anything wrong, technically...and since the people will re-elect the same people, nothing will change.

 

The beauty of that law, now that it's in effect, is it's IMPOSSIBLE to judge in terms of effectiveness. They [The US Govt] can now come forward with hundreds of "thwarted acts of terror because of the Patriot Act", that will be impossible to disprove. Not only that, but the burden of DISproof will be laid on the table, which, as you know, disproving something is the opposite of what's supposed to be done, but that's exactly how it'll go down.

 

And Google, and the rest of these glorified spyware companies (including Apple, but to a lesser extent than the likes of Goog/FB), are partially to blame with this "big brother is okay" mentality people have today. They've made it acceptable to give away unknown amounts of data for who knows what reason, for who knows how long...and nobody seems to care. Totally reminds of me that George Carlin skit...

 

 

Yeah that bulls*** justification came out today when the NRA director said they've thwarted 50 something attacks but refused to go into detail. And they can do that indefinitely, "oh trust us, we're keeping everyone safe."

[farmteam]

Yeah that bulls*** justification came out today when the NRA director said they've thwarted 50 something attacks but refused to go into detail. And they can do that indefinitely, "oh trust us, we're keeping everyone safe."

What?

 

EDIT: I assume that's a typo for "NSA" but it's still funny.

Edited June 18, 2013 by farmteam

[TheBlackSox8]

Just curious, what about the rights of everyone outside of the US? Does the Patriot Act making this "legal" pertain to them as well?

[pettie4sox]

Just curious, what about the rights of everyone outside of the US? Does the Patriot Act making this "legal" pertain to them as well?

 

And this. I'm pretty sure people in other countries where they government isn't doing this (using that loosely) will be completely enraged. Since the world has become so international orietned with various things, this could come back and bite the US square in the arse.

[Y2HH]

I don't know that this guy is a savior , but I don't think he's the worst person in the world either. And at least he's created a national dialogue about the issue.

 

As to the bolded, I'm not sure that the majority of Americans realized their government was creating ginormous databases of everyone, not just people suspected of having terrorist leanings (at minimum) or frankly people that are brown and muslim (at maximum). Yes, the Patriot Act has expanded the role of warrantless wire taps, but I also assumed there had to be SOME argument as to how that warrantless tap was needed for national security. Literally the only reason they have now is "everyone is a terrorist."

 

Here is my issue with the whole "he created a national dialog" excuse...it's just that, an excuse to pretend we care for a little while. We didn't need this guy to create a national dialog that should have (and already did exist), it's just that nobody cared, and nobody spoke about it because it wasn't the story of the week. And they don't care now, either, they're just pretending to care while it's generating viewers/clicks, depending on the medium. As for the "people", they don't care about their privacy anyway, and they haven't for a while now. They can pretend too, but they don't, as these same people laugh at me when I tell them I don't like to use too many of one companies internet connected applications because I'm concerned about my private information. You don't really have to spy on these people in the first place...all you have to do is offer them a free app, or phone, or something on the Internet that's "free", and they'll just hand it all over, without knowing it, or worse, even caring.

 

The political discourse in this country has become little more than day care for the uncaring. When they passed the Patriot Act, they did it while the nation was in a state of panic...fine, so when we all had the chance to calm our asses down and reassess the situation and the necessity of the law, as written, what did we do? Nothing. Actually, worse than nothing, because we collectively watched as they expanded the scope of the law, and passed it again. And what did we do when they took what was bad and made it worse? We re-elected the same people in the senate/congress at about a 90% clip, if not more. And what will we do now when we discover that *gasp*, they passed that very law which basically made this legal? Nothing.

 

So, when it comes to this new dialog...nobody cares. And in a few weeks, or months, it'll be forgotten about. And come election time, they'll re-elect the same exact people again. Until the next scandal...then we can pretend we care again...at least for a few weeks.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Y2HH

[Jenksismyhero]

What?

 

EDIT: I assume that's a typo for "NSA" but it's still funny.

 

Ha, yes. Sorry.

[Jenksismyhero]

Here is my issue with the whole "he created a national dialog" excuse...it's just that, an excuse to pretend we care for a little while. We didn't need this guy to create a national dialog that should have (and already did exist), it's just that nobody cared, and nobody spoke about it because it wasn't the story of the week. And they don't care now, either, they're just pretending to care while it's generating viewers/clicks, depending on the medium. As for the "people", they don't care about their privacy anyway, and they haven't for a while now. They can pretend too, but they don't, as these same people laugh at me when I tell them I don't like to use too many of one companies internet connected applications because I'm concerned about my private information. You don't really have to spy on these people in the first place...all you have to do is offer them a free app, or phone, or something on the Internet that's "free", and they'll just hand it all over, without knowing it, or worse, even caring.

 

The political discourse in this country has become little more than day care for the uncaring. When they passed the Patriot Act, they did it while the nation was in a state of panic...fine, so when we all had the chance to calm our asses down and reassess the situation and the necessity of the law, as written, what did we do? Nothing. Actually, worse than nothing, because we collectively watched as they expanded the scope of the law, and passed it again. And what did we do when they took what was bad and made it worse? We re-elected the same people in the senate/congress at about a 90% clip, if not more. And what will we do now when we discover that *gasp*, they passed that very law which basically made this legal? Nothing.

 

So, when it comes to this new dialog...nobody cares. And in a few weeks, or months, it'll be forgotten about. And come election time, they'll re-elect the same exact people again. Until the next scandal...then we can pretend we care again...at least for a few weeks.

 

We did need the national dialogue because no one knew how much the government was digging and who they were targeting. You're glossing over that point and it's pretty important. 4 weeks ago had you asked Americans who the government was looking in on i'm guessing 90% (all of the non conspiracy theorists) would have said brown people/muslims and people who communicate with people in muslim countries. They had no idea the government was spying on your 85 year old white grandma from Kansas. That's a new discovery that we found out about because of this guy disclosing classified information.

 

 

 

 

[Y2HH]

We did need the national dialogue because no one knew how much the government was digging and who they were targeting. You're glossing over that point and it's pretty important. 4 weeks ago had you asked Americans who the government was looking in on i'm guessing 90% (all of the non conspiracy theorists) would have said brown people/muslims and people who communicate with people in muslim countries. They had no idea the government was spying on your 85 year old white grandma from Kansas. That's a new discovery that we found out about because of this guy disclosing classified information.

 

I think you're dreaming and need to wake up from this fantasy. If you walked down the street right now and asked random people about Snowden and the NSA, you'd be lucky if 2 in 10 knew anything about it, and you'd be even luckier if either person knew more than, "Yea, I heard about something like that..." However, if you ask them to name the cast of Jersey Shore, or who the current Bachlorette, or who just had a baby in hollywood, I'm sure 8/10 would know those answers.

 

...and that's why I maintain, this "dialogue" doesn't matter...and in a few weeks, it'll be long forgotten.

[Steve9347]

If you walked down the street right now and asked random people about Snowden and the NSA, you'd be lucky if 2 in 10 knew anything about it, and you'd be even luckier if either person knew more than, "Yea, I heard about something like that..." However, if you ask them to name the cast of Jersey Shore, or who the current Bachlorette, or who just had a baby in hollywood, I'm sure 8/10 would know those answers.

Here I thought my grandfather was dead. Instead, he faked his death and has continued on posting on Soxtalk.

[Jenksismyhero]

I think you're dreaming and need to wake up from this fantasy. If you walked down the street right now and asked random people about Snowden and the NSA, you'd be lucky if 2 in 10 knew anything about it, and you'd be even luckier if either person knew more than, "Yea, I heard about something like that..." However, if you ask them to name the cast of Jersey Shore, or who the current Bachlorette, or who just had a baby in hollywood, I'm sure 8/10 would know those answers.

 

...and that's why I maintain, this "dialogue" doesn't matter...and in a few weeks, it'll be long forgotten.

 

You're nuts. They might not know the name but they'll know something about the NSA scandal. Certainly more people know about it now than a few weeks ago.

 

And who gives a s*** if only 1000 people in the country know? It doesn't make it right.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Jenksismybitch

[Y2HH]

Here I thought my grandfather was dead. Instead, he faked his death and has continued on posting on Soxtalk.

 

[Y2HH]

You're nuts. They might not know the name but they'll know something about the NSA scandal. Certainly more people know about it now than a few weeks ago.

 

And who gives a s*** if only 1000 people in the country know? It doesn't make it right.

 

I didn't say it was right, but where was the mass outrage when they passed the law, multiple times no less, that made this PERFECTLY LEGAL? And of that minimal amount of outrage, which equates to about the same level of outrage we have right now, what came of it? Oh, that's right, the re-election of the same exact people.

 

There is only so much fake outrage I can handle about this sort of thing, and this is the icing on the cake for me. Nobody cares about privacy, so let's not start pretending we do now.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Y2HH

[Jenksismyhero]

Saying people don't care about their privacy doesn't make it true. People are outraged by this, and justifiably so. If people didn't care, this wouldn't be on the news.

 

And why do you keep saying this is fake outrage? What evidence do you have that it's not genuine? The world has changed over the last 10 years. So have people's opinions about this stuff.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Jenksismybitch

[Y2HH]

Saying people don't care about their privacy doesn't make it true. People are outraged by this, and justifiably so. If people didn't care, this wouldn't be on the news.

 

And why do you keep saying this is fake outrage? What evidence do you have that it's not genuine? The world has changed over the last 10 years. So have people's opinions about this stuff.

 

We'll see how outraged they actually are come election day. This is nothing more than story of the week reactionary outrage that will be long forgotten when it matters most. For every one person that's actually outraged, such as you or I, that WILL exercise their ability to change things come election day, there are thousands that will do exactly as they always do, and re-elect the same people that did this to them. And then they'll feign outrage again shortly after.

[Jenksismyhero]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/tec...rc=al_comboNE_b

 

Google is preparing to ask the secretive Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court to ease long-standing gag orders over data requests it makes, arguing that the company has a constitutional right to speak about information it’s forced to give the government.

 

The legal filing, which cites the First Amendment’s guarantee of free speech, is the latest move by the California-based tech giant to protect its reputation in the aftermath of news reports about sweeping National Security Agency surveillance of Internet traffic.

 

WHOA, hey, that faux-outraged Google is trying to make some changes in the wake of this fake fiasco.

[Jenksismyhero]

I mean look, I agree that sadly a good number of Americans don't care about this stuff when they should. All i'm saying is that you're making the argument that no one cares and that's just not true.

[StrangeSox]

This keeps coming to mind every time I read something about this story:

 

Yossarian was cold, too, and shivering uncontrollably. He felt goose pimples clacking all over him as he gazed down despondently at the grim secret Snowden had spilled all over the messy floor. It was easy to read the message in his entrails. Man was matter, that was Snowden’s secret. Drop him out a window and he’ll fall. Set fire to him and he’ll burn. Bury him and he’ll rot, like other kinds of garbage. That was Snowden’s secret. Ripeness was all.

[StrangeSox]

[Y2HH]

I mean look, I agree that sadly a good number of Americans don't care about this stuff when they should. All i'm saying is that you're making the argument that no one cares and that's just not true.

 

Every time something like this happens, I hope it becomes a catalyst event that changes the way people vote in the future, but it never does, and perhaps it can't...who are the alternatives, if anyone, and would they be any better or do anything differently?

 

Just seems like another smoking gun story, trailing a long line of smoking gun stories, when the gun has essentially been smoking for decades, and nobody cares, I mean, when the boy cries wolf enough, people stop listening. I think the majority have stopped long ago.

[Balta1701]

Every time something like this happens, I hope it becomes a catalyst event that changes the way people vote in the future, but it never does, and perhaps it can't...who are the alternatives, if anyone, and would they be any better or do anything differently?

 

Just seems like another smoking gun story, trailing a long line of smoking gun stories, when the gun has essentially been smoking for decades, and nobody cares, I mean, when the boy cries wolf enough, people stop listening. I think the majority have stopped long ago.

What will happen eventually is that someone will misuse these programs in a way that gets everyone focused on it and that will drive change. That's why FISA exists in the first place, because a certain U.S. president turned the entire US Surveillance apparatus against the opposing party.

 

Personally I kinda wish the "47% of Americans are moochers" video had been found out through something like this. That'd do it right away. If they're collecting Yottabytes of data, that would mean basically everything that has ever been recorded and accessible via internet is going to wind up stored on those servers, which means it really is only a matter of time before something like that video pops up on someone's screen while sorting through that data. If they sent it upwards to the point a political appointee saw it...well there you go.

[Y2HH]

What will happen eventually is that someone will misuse these programs in a way that gets everyone focused on it and that will drive change. That's why FISA exists in the first place, because a certain U.S. president turned the entire US Surveillance apparatus against the opposing party.

 

Personally I kinda wish the "47% of Americans are moochers" video had been found out through something like this. That'd do it right away. If they're collecting Yottabytes of data, that would mean basically everything that has ever been recorded and accessible via internet is going to wind up stored on those servers, which means it really is only a matter of time before something like that video pops up on someone's screen while sorting through that data. If they sent it upwards to the point a political appointee saw it...well there you go.

 

Can't argue with this line of thought.

 

What's truly scary is the thought that this data can be stolen, not just by nefarious hackers, but by employees or contractors that decide they're doing it for the betterment of the people, to send a message, or simply because they are actual traitors. And if not now, based on the storage we're talking about, it can happen sometime down the road such as a data dump to the public at large ala the likes of Julian Assange. Also, the government is pretty notorious to be slow in updating their systems/software, and if they're encryption is bulletproof now, a day will come that it won't be.

 

I'm not at all surprised by what they're doing, I knew it was going on without needing to be told. What scares me is the fact they're storing it, or planning to store it long term. To be sure, it doesn't surprise me at all, being in the industry I'm in, but it does scare me.

[Texsox]

I think you're dreaming and need to wake up from this fantasy. If you walked down the street right now and asked random people about Snowden and the NSA, you'd be lucky if 2 in 10 knew anything about it, and you'd be even luckier if either person knew more than, "Yea, I heard about something like that..." However, if you ask them to name the cast of Jersey Shore, or who the current Bachlorette, or who just had a baby in hollywood, I'm sure 8/10 would know those answers.

 

...and that's why I maintain, this "dialogue" doesn't matter...and in a few weeks, it'll be long forgotten.

 

Earlier you made the case that everyone already knew what the government was doing. Now you seem to say no one knows or cares.

In the simplest of ways we can either trust the government and attack Snowden or believe he did something good, question the government by continuing the discussion. I believe people did not know the extent and this is the opportunity to educate them. Maybe not to the level where they are as brilliant as yourself, but maybe they can come close.