NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden

[Y2HH]

Earlier you made the case that everyone already knew what the government was doing. Now you seem to say no one knows or cares.

In the simplest of ways we can either trust the government and attack Snowden or believe he did something good, question the government by continuing the discussion. I believe people did not know the extent and this is the opportunity to educate them. Maybe not to the level where they are as brilliant as yourself, but maybe they can come close.

 

I made and continue to make BOTH of those cases. 1) They do know they're being spied on, even if they don't know they know (it's like breathing, you do it but you usually don't realize you're doing it), and 2) They don't care, or they wouldn't be so quick to hand all of this information off to Google, etc., without a care or worry in the world. If it's that easy for Google to get it, it's even easier for the Government to get it since they can just issue court orders and demand it from the companies we hand it too -- for free -- on a daily basis.

 

...and I maintain, this will be forgotten about in a few months.

 

You didn't need this story to know the government was spying on you. The second they passed the patriot act you should have known that, and again, if you and others didn't know it, maybe it's time you start paying attention to the laws the people we elect pass, expand upon, and re-pass.

 

And lol @ your educate them statement. Yea. Good luck with that. This will be important to them until the next big story breaks...or until Angry Birds is a free download, and all you have to do is give them access to some of your personal information to install it.

 

-----

 

A few things you CAN do for yourself, if you actually care to be educated on the issues of privacy:

 

Check your Google, Facebook, and other such accounts for historical information. Often, these data collections are opt-out (default opt-in), and old data can be removed, or the logging of such data can be disabled. For example, for my Google account, I have information gathering disabled, so my history is not logged anymore.

 

I believe this will take you there: https://www.google.com/settings/account?hl=en

Check your Facebook privacy settings, opt out of unnecessary opt-ins.

Check your cell phone for advertising identifiers, or other anonymous usage data, disable it.

If you use Apple or Google maps, you can disable sending them "anonymous" data.

Check your free credit reports once a year -- it's free -- and it WILL help you prevent identity theft or the leaking of personal information.

Don't give out your SSN, very few actually need it.

Use a messaging application like iMessage or Google's equivalent vs text messages, when possible.

Use two-factor authentication wherever and whenever possible.

Use encrypted websites (https) whenever possible, often these are disabled by default but can be turned on.

Don't send private information over email, unless it's an encrypted email, which it probably isn't.

Don't offer extra information to programs/websites that don't need it. For example, if you have your phone numbers listed on Facebook, ask yourself why you're doing that, and now go erase it. That same goes for your address, etc.

NEVER -- ever -- use the same password twice on anything of importance. Such as bank accounts, email accounts, etc...no password should be replicated.

 

While there is a ton of information out there on most of us, especially those who work on the Internet, you can still do your best to stem the flow of it, so try to keep a few of those things in mind next time you run across a website that wants your phone number or address for no reason.

Edited June 20, 2013 by Y2HH

[Jenksismyhero]

You're still missing the fundamental difference between "yeah I think the government probably looks at people's data/information if they suspect they're up to something or linked to someone that could pose a danger" and "I now know the government is setting up an industrial sized complex solely for the purpose of copying and recording everything everyone does."

 

 

[Balta1701]

You're still missing the fundamental difference between "yeah I think the government probably looks at people's data/information if they suspect they're up to something or linked to someone that could pose a danger" and "I now know the government is setting up an industrial sized complex solely for the purpose of copying and recording everything everyone does."

The amazing thing is, the latter disclosure might well be the biggest one here, and Snowden had nothing to do with that. Anyone could have readily reported "the NSA is building the world's largest data complex out West and will basically store every bit of data created from now until it turns sentient and kills us all in this complex", but no one did.

[Y2HH]

The amazing thing is, the latter disclosure might well be the biggest one here, and Snowden had nothing to do with that. Anyone could have readily reported "the NSA is building the world's largest data complex out West and will basically store every bit of data created from now until it turns sentient and kills us all in this complex", but no one did.

 

Exactly this. And the question is, why wasn't it reported? Hell, even to show that the Government is building something, which means jobs...which in this economy is kind of a big deal.

 

Snowden has offered nothing of substance other than his "word", by the way, and "evidence" that the US and China are hacking each other. Yea, thanks. He has offered no actual evidence about these programs, other than, "Yea, I worked there, and they're doing this." Oh ok. He's also saying they're doing a lot of things that people are refuting...including the President.

 

Snowden is the boy that cried wolf right now, nothing more. After a few more weeks of producing no evidence, and people dismiss him as a disgruntled former employee, they'll all move on...and then install Angry Birds and give Rovio all of their personal information.

Edited June 20, 2013 by Y2HH

[Jenksismyhero]

Exactly this. And the question is, why wasn't it reported? Hell, even to show that the Government is building something, which means jobs...which in this economy is kind of a big deal.

 

Snowden has offered nothing of substance other than his "word", by the way, and "evidence" that the US and China are hacking each other. Yea, thanks. He has offered no actual evidence about these programs, other than, "Yea, I worked there, and they're doing this." Oh ok. He's also saying they're doing a lot of things that people are refuting...including the President.

 

Snowden is the boy that cried wolf right now, nothing more. After a few more weeks of producing no evidence, and people dismiss him as a disgruntled former employee, they'll all move on...and then install Angry Birds and give Rovio all of their personal information.

 

Wait, what? The government builds a big complex and it needs to get reported? The federal gov't has thousands of building projects going on all the time. I'm not sure this would have raised any red flags just because it was being built. And who knows, was it classified or kept secret? Was it something that could have been discovered easily?

 

And of course the President would refute what this guy is saying. He looks like s*** for it. Notice, however, that the major tech companies have not denied the existence of the program or the government's efforts to, behind closed doors, access a ton of personal information. Snowden opened the door to more investigation and I think that's a good thing.

 

I just don't understand why you think this guy is so bad. I have gotten no indication whatsoever that he's just a pissed off employee that is dragging his ex-employer through the mud.

[Balta1701]

Snowden has offered nothing of substance other than his "word", by the way, and "evidence" that the US and China are hacking each other. Yea, thanks. He has offered no actual evidence about these programs, other than, "Yea, I worked there, and they're doing this." Oh ok. He's also saying they're doing a lot of things that people are refuting...including the President.

He offered up selected slides from a classified powerpoint presentation as well.

[Y2HH]

He offered up selected slides from a classified powerpoint presentation as well.

 

That were misinterpreted, and people thought the government had full access to "secret" servers within Google, Apple, etc...which they didn't. Evidence with no context is messy.

[Y2HH]

Wait, what? The government builds a big complex and it needs to get reported? The federal gov't has thousands of building projects going on all the time. I'm not sure this would have raised any red flags just because it was being built. And who knows, was it classified or kept secret? Was it something that could have been discovered easily?

 

And of course the President would refute what this guy is saying. He looks like s*** for it. Notice, however, that the major tech companies have not denied the existence of the program or the government's efforts to, behind closed doors, access a ton of personal information. Snowden opened the door to more investigation and I think that's a good thing.

 

I just don't understand why you think this guy is so bad. I have gotten no indication whatsoever that he's just a pissed off employee that is dragging his ex-employer through the mud.

 

He's not bad, but he's not good, either. As of now, he is a pissed off former employee and nothing more, until he can produce more than a few slides from who knows what presentation.

 

And wait, what...yes, when the government builds a huge complex that's used to store data for the next 4 thousand years, it should probably be reported. If the government built a huge complex for warehouse storage, I'm sure people would want to know what the f*** they're storing in it. But again, nobody cares. And why should they. You obviously don't based on your comments. I mean, according to you, the government has thousands of buildings this size being built all the time, when they really don't. I'm sure if they were building some tiny buildings, nobody would care to have it reported, but when you build a complex of this magnitude, it's a bit different, regardless of you attempting to claim it's not.

Edited June 20, 2013 by Y2HH

[Balta1701]

That were misinterpreted, and people thought the government had full access to "secret" servers within Google, Apple, etc...which they didn't. Evidence with no context is messy.

But they're not "Nothing of substance".

[Balta1701]

He's not bad, but he's not good, either. As of now, he is a pissed off former employee and nothing more, until he can produce more than a few slides from who knows what presentation.

 

And wait, what...yes, when the government builds a huge complex that's used to store data for the next 4 thousand years, it should probably be reported. If the government built a huge complex for warehouse storage, I'm sure people would want to know what the f*** they're storing in it. But again, nobody cares. And why should they. You obviously don't based on your comments. I mean, according to you, the government has thousands of buildings this size being built all the time, when they really don't. I'm sure if they were building some tiny buildings, nobody would care to have it reported, but when you build a complex of this magnitude, it's a bit different, regardless of you attempting to claim it's not.

[Y2HH]

But they're not "Nothing of substance".

 

If the Patriot Act didn't exist, I'd find it more substantive. But being that the Patriot Act exists, it bothers me that people are feigning surprise that their government would spy on them after passing a law that allows them to do exactly that.

 

This is how this all went down to me:

 

Government: Hey, we're passing a law for your own safety, it allows us to spy on potential terrorists, foreign and domestic.

 

People: Oh, ok!

 

*A few years pass*

 

Government: Hey, we're going to expand the scope of that law that allows us to spy on potential terrorists anyone, foreign or domestic.

 

People: Oh, ok!

 

*A few more years pass*

 

Whistleblower: Hey, they're spying on you!

 

People: OMFG I CANT BELIEVE IT!

[Y2HH]

 

That's amazon.

[Y2HH]

And to make my opinions absolutely clear on Snowden and the like, I think they're irresponsible with a job and information that demands extreme responsibility. Is what they're doing a good thing or a bad thing, and furthermore, why them? They're not part of some elected or chosen oversight committee that understands how to vet this information properly before releasing it. So, in the end, what we have is nothing more than a person intercepting documents or communications they don't fully understand, and releasing it to the public. It's potentially more damaging then any good it can do, especially considering that most people interpreting the leaked information don't fully understand it, or worse, the context of it. Even Snowden doesn't fully understand the information he's leaking, or the scope of that information.

[Jenksismyhero]

If the Patriot Act didn't exist, I'd find it more substantive. But being that the Patriot Act exists, it bothers me that people are feigning surprise that their government would spy on them after passing a law that allows them to do exactly that.

 

This is how this all went down to me:

 

Government: Hey, we're passing a law for your own safety, it allows us to spy on potential terrorists, foreign and domestic.

 

People: Oh, ok!

 

*A few years pass*

 

Government: Hey, we're going to expand the scope of that law that allows us to spy on potential terrorists anyone, foreign or domestic.

 

People: Oh, ok!

 

*A few more years pass*

 

Whistleblower: Hey, they're spying on you!

 

People: OMFG I CANT BELIEVE IT!

 

For the 1000 time, look at the f'n details of this, not the generalities.

[Y2HH]

For the 1000 time, look at the f'n details of this, not the generalities.

 

I've already gone over that in my previous post.

[Jenksismyhero]

No, you didn't. What I quoted was the summation of your thoughts on this...in generalities!

 

"People were told X. People find out about X. People are now complaining. What idiots." That's essentially what you keep saying in different form despite the fact it's not true.

 

 

[Y2HH]

No, you didn't. What I quoted was the summation of your thoughts on this...in generalities!

 

"People were told X. People find out about X. People are now complaining. What idiots." That's essentially what you keep saying in different form despite the fact it's not true.

 

In my previous post to the one above, I went over the irresponsibility of releasing information that he himself doesn't fully understand. But, I get your point. It's started a conversation, which I should be happy about since it's a conversation I've been trying to have with people for a long time, only to be dismissed as paranoid.

 

After everything we've seen/done to ourselves over the past decade, I guess my disappointment in all of this stems from the question, "Is this what it takes to get people to notice what's been going on around them? And furthermore, will it stick, or just be the latest in a string of forgotten examples of personal security breaches?" The NSA is just one of many, as a society over the past ten years, we've come to allow companies who's products we buy to spy on us easier than we allow the federal government to do so. All they have to do is offer a free application, or worse, have us pay for it and data mine everything we do, even things that have nothing to do with their needs. And then when they come up with excuses, we dismiss it and say, "oh, ok, no big deal.", and a few weeks later it's long forgotten. We've had numerous examples of companies both large and small stealing our location data, our personal information, our address books, etc. And nobody cares.

 

Just like when Google "accidentally" data-mined WiFi SSID's and data payloads with their street cars. Right, that was an accident. And you accidentally kept doing it until caught. And when they were caught, they were given less than a slap on the wrist...and in most countries were allowed to keep the f***ing data. And nobody cared. There is no way that was an accident, either, they would have noticed the massive difference in space the collectors were gathering as the difference in collecting an SSID name and a data payload isn't something you can overlook, unless you're doing it on purpose. Apple did it too, storing location and identifier information in an unencrypted text file on everyone's cellular phones for who knows how long until they were caught doing so...and whoopsie, our bad! And those were just two off the top of my head that we found out about...how many more are doing this right now?

 

It seems disingenuous for most people to pretend they care about their privacy when it comes to the government or from the companies they freely hand it too, when everything they do flies in the face of that.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Y2HH

[Balta1701]

This one's been on my mind for a while and I think it's an interesting thought in response to Y2HH's focus on privacy...what about looking at this program from the other side?

 

I've been stressing the fact that we simply aren't given information to make a choice on this program. The government's defense of it has been "This program has been useful in stopping terrorist cases x, y, and z". Ok, great. Why should we assume that's the only place that a database like this could be useful? I think we can all imagine ways that it would be incredibly useful in just standard law enforcement.

 

Just as a hypothetical, let's imagine that if every police officer in the country could get access to this database, we could cut the nation's homicide rate by 20%. Obviously I don't know what's in it or what the safeguards are now since I'm not told, but think about that for a second. Wouldn't a whole lot of people, probably me included, be willing to find a legal way to make that happen if the payoff could be thousands or tens of thousands of lives per year?

 

Like you said with the Google case, I have a much bigger problem with people/companies/governments doing this stuff when I'm not given the choice or the ability to evaluate it. That's why Google should get in trouble, that's where the biggest trouble here should be...we're not given the ability to make any kind of choice, and we can't evaluate whether the program is too secure, not secure enough, used too much, not used enough, too expensive, not expansive enough, etc.

[Jenksismyhero]

In my previous post to the one above, I went over the irresponsibility of releasing information that he himself doesn't fully understand. But, I get your point. It's started a conversation, which I should be happy about since it's a conversation I've been trying to have with people for a long time, only to be dismissed as paranoid.

 

After everything we've seen/done to ourselves over the past decade, I guess my disappointment in all of this stems from the question, "Is this what it takes to get people to notice what's been going on around them? And furthermore, will it stick, or just be the latest in a string of forgotten examples of personal security breaches?" The NSA is just one of many, as a society over the past ten years, we've come to allow companies who's products we buy to spy on us easier than we allow the federal government to do so. All they have to do is offer a free application, or worse, have us pay for it and data mine everything we do, even things that have nothing to do with their needs. And then when they come up with excuses, we dismiss it and say, "oh, ok, no big deal.", and a few weeks later it's long forgotten. We've had numerous examples of companies both large and small stealing our location data, our personal information, our address books, etc. And nobody cares.

 

Just like when Google "accidentally" data-mined WiFi SSID's and data payloads with their street cars. Right, that was an accident. And you accidentally kept doing it until caught. And when they were caught, they were given less than a slap on the wrist...and in most countries were allowed to keep the f***ing data. And nobody cared. There is no way that was an accident, either, they would have noticed the massive difference in space the collectors were gathering as the difference in collecting an SSID name and a data payload isn't something you can overlook, unless you're doing it on purpose. Apple did it too, storing location and identifier information in an unencrypted text file on everyone's cellular phones for who knows how long until they were caught doing so...and whoopsie, our bad! And those were just two off the top of my head that we found out about...how many more are doing this right now?

 

It seems disingenuous for most people to pretend they care about their privacy when it comes to the government or from the companies they freely hand it too, when everything they do flies in the face of that.

 

The reason I don't care about private companies "invading" my privacy is that they (generally) track my habits in order to provide me services in a better way. I'm fine with that. A grocery chain wants to track my spending habits? Fine. I get personalized coupons or I get beer next to the diapers instead of all the way across the store. Google wants to know my location and search history so it can offer me better search results? Fine. That's helping me as a consumer. Now if you have a situation like Google or Apple where they're just downloading data just to have it, then yes, I agree they should get fined a ton of money for it and the people at the top should be held accountable.

 

But the government doing it is entirely different. The ONLY reason they should ever look into my private life is absolute necessity. Anything beyond that and it's just snooping or downright invasion of privacy. There is no end benefit to me for that lack of privacy. I don't get anything out of it. I didn't even consent to it. So yes, we should all be upset about this. I totally understand the national security need to perhaps tap a phone when it's imperative and getting a warrant from a court isn't feasible. Those things happen and i'm glad that they do. But again, grabbing up data on my 90 year old grandma serves no purpose other than the government invading privacy just for the sake of doing it.

[Balta1701]

There is no end benefit to me for that lack of privacy. I don't get anything out of it. I didn't even consent to it. So yes, we should all be upset about this. I totally understand the national security need to perhaps tap a phone when it's imperative and getting a warrant from a court isn't feasible. Those things happen and i'm glad that they do. But again, grabbing up data on my 90 year old grandma serves no purpose other than the government invading privacy just for the sake of doing it.

The argument for the government doing this is that the benefit is "you stay alive".

 

But, as I keep saying, the difference with your other points is, I know when I get a coupon cashed in what the original price was, I know I'm still alive, but I have no ability to evaluate whether or not that would be the case if this program didn't exist.

[Jenksismyhero]

The argument for the government doing this is that the benefit is "you stay alive".

 

But, as I keep saying, the difference with your other points is, I know when I get a coupon cashed in what the original price was, I know I'm still alive, but I have no ability to evaluate whether or not that would be the case if this program didn't exist.

 

Oh bulls***. The odds of me dying in a car crash are better than me dying because of a terrorist attack. If that's your justification, the government should implant us all with chips right now.

[Jenksismyhero]

Balta you must really fear death. We can't have guns because you're afraid of being caught in the inevitable shoot out cross fire. The government should be able to infringe all of our rights because, well, we might be killed by terrorists if they don't. Might as well start the 1984 soundtrack right now.

[Balta1701]

Oh bulls***. The odds of me dying in a car crash are better than me dying because of a terrorist attack. If that's your justification, the government should implant us all with chips right now.

That's not my justification, that's the government's.

[Jenksismyhero]

I think history has shown that when leaders say doing X means you'll be safe, generally they're lying out of their ass.

[Balta1701]

I think history has shown that when leaders say doing X means you'll be safe, generally they're lying out of their ass.

Which is why I keep asking for a full accounting of the program(s) and its capabilities (and have been since 2006 or so).