Buddy Bell watching Johnson start

[The Ultimate Champion]

I'm saying that for a closer I think Reed has an average arm. I think he's an average closer who is playing above his head.

 

I think you can get a lot out of a team maybe like Detroit if not Detroit specifically because winning games now matters a whole to them. When you have that many star & superstar players and you are in the weakest division in the league, and coming off another failed WS appearance, you need to win. For a team with major closer issues, a good quality closer is going to be worth more than he'd normally be worth, since having that type of player allows a manager to provide set roles for his relievers which can strengthen the entire pen. Conversely, with us, the pen isn't all that great now & will be trash once Thornton, Crain, and maybe Lindstrom are gone. Reed will be worth less to us than typical, and IMO it's a good bet that his value will probably drop later in the year as he is left trying to clean up the s*** his penmates put him in.

 

You say there's no reason to trade him because he's cheap & young. Okay. Then you would agree that we need MLB-ready young players, right? How are we supposed to get those then? Because on the position side we really have a bunch of nothing. If you are in the position the Sox are in then there is no good reason to hang on to your Reed. Again, he's not that kind of arm.

 

Someone was saying about trying to get Avisail Garcia from the Tigers in a package where we sent out Reed and another reliever like Crain. f***ing do it please! If it's possible, do it. You don't trade Reed for a few scraps, you dangle him out there (especially in a package with Thornton, Crain, or Lindstrom for a team with a bad pen) looking for a player who is a good bet to be an average MLB starting position player or better. And if you can land an MLB ready talent with a nice floor and star potential for a reliever or two without dynamite stuff then you do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it hard f*** yeah.

Edited June 23, 2013 by The Ultimate Champion

[winninguglyin83]

For Charlotte:

 

Leesman today.

 

Berken Monday.

 

TBA Tuesday. Guess that will be Johnson's AAA debut in Louisville, where the first hitter he will face will be Billy Hamilton.

[winninguglyin83]

Ooops.

 

Change of plans.

 

Mark Gonzales just tweeted that Erik Johnson is making his AAA debut for Charlotee in Indianapolis today.

[southsider2k5]

I wonder if there's some thought in the organization about trading Reed, grooming Danish quickly in the minors to fill that role immediately kind of like Sale, work with him on his mechanics piece by piece at the MLB level ala Sale, then try to convert him to a starter in the big leagues.

 

Lawrence: No. No, man. s***, no, man. I believe you'd get your ass kicked sayin' something like that, man.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Sounds like you've got a case of the Sundays.

[Dick Allen]

I'm saying that for a closer I think Reed has an average arm. I think he's an average closer who is playing above his head.

 

I think you can get a lot out of a team maybe like Detroit if not Detroit specifically because winning games now matters a whole to them. When you have that many star & superstar players and you are in the weakest division in the league, and coming off another failed WS appearance, you need to win. For a team with major closer issues, a good quality closer is going to be worth more than he'd normally be worth, since having that type of player allows a manager to provide set roles for his relievers which can strengthen the entire pen. Conversely, with us, the pen isn't all that great now & will be trash once Thornton, Crain, and maybe Lindstrom are gone. Reed will be worth less to us than typical, and IMO it's a good bet that his value will probably drop later in the year as he is left trying to clean up the s*** his penmates put him in.

 

You say there's no reason to trade him because he's cheap & young. Okay. Then you would agree that we need MLB-ready young players, right? How are we supposed to get those then? Because on the position side we really have a bunch of nothing. If you are in the position the Sox are in then there is no good reason to hang on to your Reed. Again, he's not that kind of arm.

 

Someone was saying about trying to get Avisail Garcia from the Tigers in a package where we sent out Reed and another reliever like Crain. f***ing do it please! If it's possible, do it. You don't trade Reed for a few scraps, you dangle him out there (especially in a package with Thornton, Crain, or Lindstrom for a team with a bad pen) looking for a player who is a good bet to be an average MLB starting position player or better. And if you can land an MLB ready talent with a nice floor and star potential for a reliever or two without dynamite stuff then you do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it hard f*** yeah.

 

You make a big deal about top 100 rankings, then say this would be a great trade? Reed was once ranked 66. Garcia just hit the board this year at 74. Trading Reed for a guy that projects to be average makes as little sense as your idea for Danish.

 

[caulfield12]

But the bigger point remains....

 

Unless we are willing to trade Reed, Ramirez, Peavy or Rios, we're very unlikely to get a PROJECTED major league average (or better, potentially) bat back in trade. There's just no argument there. Crain will probably get us a guy in High A or two low A prospects, but nobody ready to contribute in 2014 (I'll believe it when I see the Cardinals trading us Adams or their CF prospect, Taveras or Taveres or whatever his name is).

 

Which leaves the scraps left over in the FA market, because we're not going to be outbidding many teams this offseason, simply because it wouldn't make any sense to try to spend our way into contention and then pare back payroll when the fans won't or don't support it. (Which is how we ended up dumping Teahen/Jackson for nothing).

[BigHurt3515]

But the bigger point remains....

 

Unless we are willing to trade Reed, Ramirez, Peavy or Rios, we're very unlikely to get a PROJECTED major league average (or better, potentially) bat back in trade. There's just no argument there. Crain will probably get us a guy in High A or two low A prospects, but nobody ready to contribute in 2014 (I'll believe it when I see the Cardinals trading us Adams or their CF prospect, Taveras or Taveres or whatever his name is).

 

Which leaves the scraps left over in the FA market, because we're not going to be outbidding many teams this offseason, simply because it wouldn't make any sense to try to spend our way into contention and then pare back payroll when the fans won't or don't support it. (Which is how we ended up dumping Teahen/Jackson for nothing).

 

He is probably one of the top prospects if not the top prospect right now, no way they trade him for anything we have

[Y2Jimmy0]

Trading away good, young ,cheap players for prospects,is a terrible way to rebuild. I guess people around here really like guys like Nestor Molina and Simon Castro. Personally, unless the Sox see some sort of injury about to happen, guys like Reed are guys I would love to keep around. Detroit, where money is no problem, would love to have Reed, and your baseless claim of his averageness, closing out games. Bullpens are a crapshoot, but the guys you can count on every year are pretty valuable. Saying there is no reason to hang on to him is ridiculous.

 

 

Obviously nobody is advocating dumping Reed for Nestor Molina or Simon Castro. If that's all you get back then you wouldn't make the trade. But let's say for example, Addison Reed nets you a guy like Matt Adams or Nick Castellanos. You would have to make that trade. He is a f***ing relief pitcher. Those guys are much much more valuable. You couldn't get either of those guys or a guy similar for Reed though so it is irrelevant. They don't have to trade Addison Reed. He's not a guy that you must keep either though. If there's an offer that "makes the team better" you make it. Guys like Reed can be replaced.

[The Ultimate Champion]

You make a big deal about top 100 rankings, then say this would be a great trade? Reed was once ranked 66. Garcia just hit the board this year at 74. Trading Reed for a guy that projects to be average makes as little sense as your idea for Danish.

If Reed for Garcia straight up was on the table right now & Hahn didn't pull the trigger then I believe he should be fired immediately.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Obviously nobody is advocating dumping Reed for Nestor Molina or Simon Castro. If that's all you get back then you wouldn't make the trade. But let's say for example, Addison Reed nets you a guy like Matt Adams or Nick Castellanos. You would have to make that trade. He is a f***ing relief pitcher. Those guys are much much more valuable. You couldn't get either of those guys or a guy similar for Reed though so it is irrelevant. They don't have to trade Addison Reed. He's not a guy that you must keep either though. If there's an offer that "makes the team better" you make it. Guys like Reed can be replaced.

Right, exactly.

 

Is Reed going to develop into a starter anytime soon? He's not f***ing Mariano. Cripes.

[TaylorStSox]

Reed should be on the market because he's more valuable to the Sox if he can get more than 1 prospect. You don't need a closer when you suck. By the time we need a closer, somebody else will have stepped up.

[caulfield12]

If Reed for Garcia straight up was on the table right now & Hahn didn't pull the trigger then I believe he should be fired immediately.

 

Castellanos, yes.

 

Garcia, it's not quite so clear cut. There's no guarantee that Garcia will develop power going forward. He SHOULD. He has the physique, but, then again, that's what we projected about Ryan Sweeney.

[PolishPrince34]

If Reed for Garcia straight up was on the table right now & Hahn didn't pull the trigger then I believe he should be fired immediately.

Absolutely not do you trade Reed for Garcia. Garcia is a 4th OF at best. Now if they offer Castellanos I would pull the trigger because you have your 3B for the next 6 years.

[Dick Allen]

If Reed for Garcia straight up was on the table right now & Hahn didn't pull the trigger then I believe he should be fired immediately.

He should be fired if he took it. Garcia is not that good.

[Dick Allen]

Obviously nobody is advocating dumping Reed for Nestor Molina or Simon Castro. If that's all you get back then you wouldn't make the trade. But let's say for example, Addison Reed nets you a guy like Matt Adams or Nick Castellanos. You would have to make that trade. He is a f***ing relief pitcher. Those guys are much much more valuable. You couldn't get either of those guys or a guy similar for Reed though so it is irrelevant. They don't have to trade Addison Reed. He's not a guy that you must keep either though. If there's an offer that "makes the team better" you make it. Guys like Reed can be replaced.

If relievers are as easy to replace as you say, no one is going to ne willing to give up much for one in a trade. But any move that makes the team better you make, including Sale.

 

If the argument is you don't need a closer during a rebuild, you certainly don't need a ticking time bomb making meaningless starts. So that would mean Sale has to go.

[The Ultimate Champion]

He should be fired if he took it. Garcia is not that good.

Garcia is 22 & MLB ready. He's putting up numbers that, you are right, are not really "good" right now (.286/.328/.378 in 128 career MLB PA). But the only question on him really is the power, and if he finds that, you are talking about trading a closer for a potential all-star and our future RF. If Garcia was putting up power numbers he wouldn't be available at all, to anyone, outside of maybe a Stanton/Price deal or something of that order. To get a player who is already through the MiLB process with a very high ceiling and 6 years control, and seemingly with a pretty good floor as well, for a closer without extraordinary stuff? That's about as low-risk as it gets when it comes to big, potentially future-altering deals. It's much easier to "win" a closer deal than say a Peavy deal.

 

I mean, if you think you can get a better player for Reed than that then great, I just don't think you can. And Castallenos, okay sure, but how realistic is it to expect a team's top prospect at the absolute height of his value for ANY of our players? See: Olt, Mike on this forum, as far as how a guy can go from "would you trade Sale for him?" to "I'd take him for Crain" in a few months time. Why is it even smart to buy unproven players at such a high price, even if you can?

 

And that said, the Tigers may very well laugh us off the phone if we proposed Reed for Garcia. I'm just saying, MLB-ready position player who is young & has a very high ceiling is the type of player that you target if you're offering Reed, and if you get it offered to you, the deal should be done.

[caulfield12]

Garcia is 22 & MLB ready. He's putting up numbers that, you are right, are not really "good" right now (.286/.328/.378 in 128 career MLB PA). But the only question on him really is the power, and if he finds that, you are talking about trading a closer for a potential all-star and our future RF. If Garcia was putting up power numbers he wouldn't be available at all, to anyone, outside of maybe a Stanton/Price deal or something of that order. To get a player who is already through the MiLB process with a very high ceiling and 6 years control, and seemingly with a pretty good floor as well, for a closer without extraordinary stuff? That's about as low-risk as it gets when it comes to big, potentially future-altering deals. It's much easier to "win" a closer deal than say a Peavy deal.

 

I mean, if you think you can get a better player for Reed than that then great, I just don't think you can. And Castallenos, okay sure, but how realistic is it to expect a team's top prospect at the absolute height of his value for ANY of our players? See: Olt, Mike on this forum, as far as how a guy can go from "would you trade Sale for him?" to "I'd take him for Crain" in a few months time. Why is it even smart to buy unproven players at such a high price, even if you can?

 

And that said, the Tigers may very well laugh us off the phone if we proposed Reed for Garcia. I'm just saying, MLB-ready position player who is young & has a very high ceiling is the type of player that you target if you're offering Reed, and if you get it offered to you, the deal should be done.

 

They wouldn't laugh, but they're not quite ready to do it, either.

 

OTOH, they acquired Torii Hunter to WIN NOW. Giving Garcia a chance to learn at the major league level wasn't the highest priority in that decision-making process (not unlike the same problems we had giving prospects time when every game/season we were playing for the playoffs, theoretically).

 

And I don't think anyone expected Dirks to be quite so solid within their front office. Plus, Leyland absolutely loves Don Kelly, his favorite scrappy player now that Inge is gone.

 

Not to mention Victor Martinez also blocks him getting a chance to hit at another spot in the line-up (granted, I would DH Hunter and put Garcia in RF most of the time).

 

 

 

[Y2Jimmy0]

If relievers are as easy to replace as you say, no one is going to ne willing to give up much for one in a trade. But any move that makes the team better you make, including Sale.

 

If the argument is you don't need a closer during a rebuild, you certainly don't need a ticking time bomb making meaningless starts. So that would mean Sale has to go.

 

 

I never said you didn't need a closer during a rebuild. Again, you are hearing what you want to hear. I said I would trade Reed if they got what they perceived as value in return. You'd be an idiot not to trade anyone if you thought your chances of winning a world series became greater upon making the deal. That's all I was saying. Would I trade Reed for a couple of High A pitching prospects with potential? No. I would absolutely trade him for a bat or two though that Rick Hahn felt could be apart of the team's long term future. I would entertain trading Sale as well. Once I saw the offers, I would most likely turn them all down though. There are very few absolute untouchables in sports. Everyone has a price. Whether or not that price is realistic is another story though.

[caulfield12]

Ramirez, whose 12 errors equal his total in 2012, declined to speak after the loss and said he might reconsider Tuesday.

 

This arguably was the Sox's most frustrating loss in an array of lows this season. This time the Sox (31-42) wasted four RBIs from Dunn while blowing leads of 4-0 and 6-4, largely because they stranded 10 runners and increased their season error total to 53 at the worst time.

 

The loss merely heightened the speculation about personnel change after they missed a chance to earn their first series road sweep of the season. The eighth-inning errors marked the 12th time the Sox have committed two or more in a game.

 

Crain, who trimmed the beard he had grown during the streaks, bobbled a bunt by Elliott Johnson that loaded the bases. The streaks ended when he walked Alex Gordon with two out, but he still had a one-run lead until Alcides Escobar hit a hard grounder that skipped past Ramirez to score the tying and winning runs.

 

"(Ramirez) didn't catch it," manager Robin Ventura said. "That's it. That's why it's an error. (It gets a little tougher as the game goes on the field dries out and gets harder.)''

 

Second baseman Beckham, who hit a two-run double that put the Sox ahead in the seventh, came to Ramirez's defense.

 

"It's frustrating, but that ball was hit pretty hard and this is a very hard field," Beckham said. "That ball hopped up a little bit, and we weren't able to get it. But it's not for a lack of trying."

 

Crain, who last was charged with a run April 12 in Cleveland when Nick Swisher hit a game-winning double, accepted his share of responsibility.

 

"It's baseball for you," Crain said. "I don't make a bunt play and I could have been out of it, (but) another ball finds a way to sneak through. You've got to have a lot of luck to have a streak like that. Guys make good plays behind you, and sometimes you have to battle through things.

 

"Sometimes mistakes are made by me, most importantly."

 

The biggest issue for the Sox could be how management intends to correct a series of failures that has stunted any semblance of momentum.

 

At least Jesse Stones manned up and took responsibility for something that wasn't his fault.

 

Did Chris Rongey also use the "hard field/tough hop" excuse?

Or did he claim Alexei Ramirez was tired from playing every single inning this year and was losing focus/concentration? (Of course, that would be an attack on either Hahn or Ventura, implicitly).

 

www.chicagotribune.com/sports (Gonzales)

Edited June 24, 2013 by caulfield12

[The Ultimate Champion]

Alexei just needs to go to a contender. He's so much like Uribe it's crazy, neither of those guys can play on s***ty team and keep that same level of focus. Put them on a winner & it's a totally different player. I imagine any team looking at Alexei seriously would understand that also, so I'm not sure his errors and mental slips make him much less desirable.

[caulfield12]

Alexei just needs to go to a contender. He's so much like Uribe it's crazy, neither of those guys can play on s***ty team and keep that same level of focus. Put them on a winner & it's a totally different player. I imagine any team looking at Alexei seriously would understand that also, so I'm not sure his errors and mental slips make him much less desirable.

 

 

But he's pretty much been the same player offensively since 2009...except with declining OPS numbers on a year by year basis.

 

Maybe we need to do some research into his 2009 and 2011 defensive performance and compare it with 2008/10/12.

 

Offensively, he's been one of our better hitters and stolen base threats, just not as much of an XB threat as before. Your argument is that playing on a winning team has more of a concentrated effect on his defensive performance?

 

 

[cabiness42]

Buddy Bell on WhiteSoxWeekly mentioned he is going to see Erik Johnsons 1st start at AAA. How often does the Ast GM go to personally see one of his minor league starters pitch? I'm guessing this is a prelude to a starter being dealt.

 

He also mentioned Daniel Webb specifically as someone with closer stuff, but they are working on his pitches being less straight and having more depth.

 

Wouldn't it be handy to have your AAA team close enough to the ML club to do this often? (HINT, HINT)

 

[kitekrazy]

Ramirez, whose 12 errors equal his total in 2012, declined to speak after the loss and said he might reconsider Tuesday.

 

This arguably was the Sox's most frustrating loss in an array of lows this season. This time the Sox (31-42) wasted four RBIs from Dunn while blowing leads of 4-0 and 6-4, largely because they stranded 10 runners and increased their season error total to 53 at the worst time.

 

The loss merely heightened the speculation about personnel change after they missed a chance to earn their first series road sweep of the season. The eighth-inning errors marked the 12th time the Sox have committed two or more in a game.

 

Crain, who trimmed the beard he had grown during the streaks, bobbled a bunt by Elliott Johnson that loaded the bases. The streaks ended when he walked Alex Gordon with two out, but he still had a one-run lead until Alcides Escobar hit a hard grounder that skipped past Ramirez to score the tying and winning runs.

 

"(Ramirez) didn't catch it," manager Robin Ventura said. "That's it. That's why it's an error. (It gets a little tougher as the game goes on the field dries out and gets harder.)''

 

Second baseman Beckham, who hit a two-run double that put the Sox ahead in the seventh, came to Ramirez's defense.

 

"It's frustrating, but that ball was hit pretty hard and this is a very hard field," Beckham said. "That ball hopped up a little bit, and we weren't able to get it. But it's not for a lack of trying."

 

Crain, who last was charged with a run April 12 in Cleveland when Nick Swisher hit a game-winning double, accepted his share of responsibility.

 

"It's baseball for you," Crain said. "I don't make a bunt play and I could have been out of it, (but) another ball finds a way to sneak through. You've got to have a lot of luck to have a streak like that. Guys make good plays behind you, and sometimes you have to battle through things.

 

"Sometimes mistakes are made by me, most importantly."

 

The biggest issue for the Sox could be how management intends to correct a series of failures that has stunted any semblance of momentum.

 

At least Jesse Stones manned up and took responsibility for something that wasn't his fault.

 

Did Chris Rongey also use the "hard field/tough hop" excuse?

Or did he claim Alexei Ramirez was tired from playing every single inning this year and was losing focus/concentration? (Of course, that would be an attack on either Hahn or Ventura, implicitly).

 

www.chicagotribune.com/sports (Gonzales)

 

I only got to watch the replay but that ball looked like a bad hop. BTW how did all of those men get on base before that?

[southsider2k5]

Wouldn't it be handy to have your AAA team close enough to the ML club to do this often? (HINT, HINT)

 

The Sox like having their minor league clubs very close to each other. Really there is only two AAA teams anywhere near Chicago in Indy and Iowa, and they sure aren't going to get Iowa.