Buddy Bell watching Johnson start

[fathom]

Huh? Nick Castellanos is going to hit in the big leagues and play 3rd base. Addison Reed is a relief pitcher. Are you kidding? If the Tigers offered us Castellanos for anyone on our roster other than Sale, I'd personally drive that player to Detroit.

 

Yep, if they're offering up Castellanos for Reed, you do that in a heartbeat.

[Eminor3rd]

LOL

 

If we're playing the Tigers & we're down in the 9th then we're already f***ed as it is.

 

And if you mean Reed helping them beat other teams and helping their record while we're good.... do you really think that in 2-3 years (when you think we'll be good again) Reed will be sooooo good that he'll be a difference maker for that team? Do you not believe that the Tigers could, and would, acquire another closer equally as good in the meantime?

 

Reed may not even be in baseball 2 years from now for all we know. This isn't Sale we're talking about. This is like a total layup and the Sox FO is the WNBA all-star team. There's no way they should be able to screw this one up.

 

BTW, what happens if the Tigers get Reed from us and win a WS this year? Does that negatively affect us? Not really, no. Not if you don't think we're going to be good next year. We'd miss the payroll spike.

 

OTOH, what happens if the Tiggers trade us an all-star for 6 years & they get a halfway decent closer for a couple years who eventually gets hurt/becomes ineffective and is non-tendered? Because that happens all the time with closers. We'd be looking at a deal that Tigers fans would lament for years, and a deal that would be part of the foundation of the legacy Hahn should be trying to build.

 

This is a great f***ing situation for us & it's like half the board wants to be Debbie Downer over Addison Reed. ADDISON REED! LOL

 

Wait aren't you arguing vehemently in another thread about how trading for prospects sucks and they always bust?

 

Guess what? We're not getting f***ing Castellanos for Reed. Obviously if someone wants to vastly overpay for him, let's do it -- but I'm arguing generally against filling our direct competitors' biggest holes with our cost-controlled talent with upside.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Eminor3rd

[Chicago White Sox]

Wait aren't you arguing vehemently in another thread about how trading for prospects sucks and they always bust?

He was before he went on his trade Reed at all costs tangent.

[The Ultimate Champion]

He was before he went on his trade Reed at all costs tangent.

Reed is a closer.

 

As for the WERENOTGETTINGCASTRASLKNFORHIMDAERNIRREEED there was a post earlier referencing MLBTradeRumors.... hey, I'll even find it myself

 

"Other teams say the Tigers are willing to surrender top prospects Nick Castellanos or Avisail Garcia if necessary. The team is focused on finding a closer."

 

So there.

 

*Also, most of my anti-prospect stuff came re: the completely outlandish idea of trading a recently extended Chris Sale. You're trading the best possible outcome, who is young, under control, paid well below his production, the arb years are avoided, the team has tons of control.... for what? A bunch of unproven players who are great looking now? Yeah that will work out well. Trading a reliever for someone's top prospect doesn't have nearly the downside. The upside is tremendous thought. If the player you get back becomes a star, you killed it. If you get back an average SP or position player, you still stole the guy, hands down. If he's a halfway decent player for maybe 3-4 seasons filling a role, given the volatility of relievers, you still may win that deal. And even if Reed stays Reed while they player you get back full out busts, oh well. It's not like you lost some star player. You lost a reliever.

Edited June 25, 2013 by The Ultimate Champion

[The Ultimate Champion]

Wait aren't you arguing vehemently in another thread about how trading for prospects sucks and they always bust?

 

Guess what? We're not getting f***ing Castellanos for Reed. Obviously if someone wants to vastly overpay for him, let's do it -- but I'm arguing generally against filling our direct competitors' biggest holes with our cost-controlled talent with upside.

Who cares what they do?

 

Every team in this division is trying to get better.

 

If another rival team wants to trade a more talented player to us for a reliever, you let them do it.

 

It doesn't matter how good any of these other teams are until we're good enough to contend for a title. We're not even close to that point.

 

And if we're freaking out about what other rival teams might look like 2-3 years from now, let's talk about the Twins now that Terry Ryan back. They won't suck forever. The Tigers may not even be our biggest threat the next time we're ready to win big.

[fathom]

Who cares what they do?

 

Every team in this division is trying to get better.

 

If another rival team wants to trade a more talented player to us for a reliever, you let them do it.

 

It doesn't matter how good any of these other teams are until we're good enough to contend for a title. We're not even close to that point.

 

And if we're freaking out about what other rival teams might look like 2-3 years from now, let's talk about the Twins now that Terry Ryan back. They won't suck forever. The Tigers may not even be our biggest threat the next time we're ready to win big.

 

I couldn't agree more, but maybe the Tigers are thinking they wouldn't want to have Castellanos haunt them in their own division for years to come.

[Jerksticks]

Wait aren't you arguing vehemently in another thread about how trading for prospects sucks and they always bust?

 

Guess what? We're not getting f***ing Castellanos for Reed. Obviously if someone wants to vastly overpay for him, let's do it -- but I'm arguing generally against filling our direct competitors' biggest holes with our cost-controlled talent with upside.

 

That's why you have to ask for more. It's the tigers. No way you lose that trade. Caste llanos is worth far less than y'all realize. Ilitch wants to win this year not develop a prospect.

[fathom]

That's why you have to ask for more. It's the tigers. No way you lose that trade. Caste llanos is worth far less than y'all realize. Ilitch wants to win this year not develop a prospect.

 

#37 prospect in all of baseball coming into the year having a very good year in AAA as a 21 year old is pretty damn valuable. He would easily be the #1 prospect in our organization.

Edited June 25, 2013 by fathom

[The Ultimate Champion]

I couldn't agree more, but maybe the Tigers are thinking they wouldn't want to have Castellanos haunt them in their own division for years to come.

First off, I like Garcia & wouldn't be unhappy with him at all. Right now Castellanos is the guy the prospect people are talking about but I wouldn't be surprised if some of our people would like Garcia more. It's our scouts who matter, not any of the writers.

 

That said, if the Tigers will give us a guy who we think is ready now, and who we also think is going to be an above average starting position player for us for several years, and a potential cornerstone of the next really good Sox team, and they are ready to do it for a reliever, then let's do it.

 

As far as the Tigers not wanting to do it... that's where Illitch comes in. If you were an agent dealing with George Steinbrenner directly, and you knew Cashman wasn't going to be on board, then you were as happy as a camel on a Wednesday because you knew you were going to get your terms whether the GM liked it or not. Illitch might just pull the trigger on a move that will hurt the franchise down the road for the sake of winning now. He's done it several times over in the spending area, almost did it with the Jurrjens deal (Jair fell off, got hurt, etc.) most recently he did it with Prince. If we offer them Reed or even a package of relievers for some unproven players - and let's remember how many great Tigers prospects Illitch has watched bust over the years - and he thinks that deal puts them over the top, then it doesn't matter what Dombrowski thinks or wants to do, that deal is done.

 

Hahn needs to take advantage of every possible avenue. I couldn't care less if the Tigers win it all this year either. If we don't then someone else has to, might as well be them. But I do care a lot about the Sox being good again, and if there's a deal out there that we think makes us a lot better in the future then we need to make it, no matter who it is with.

 

And it's funny how for so long people on this board b****ed and b****ed and cried about Kenny Williams trying to win during our contention window, and how all we did was trade prospects rather than acquire them, and how horrible it was that there wasn't a clear focus on the future & nothing else. Well now is the time to do that, and people still want to complain? Ugh. If you can win, try like hell to win. If you can't, try like hell to get back there again. Sale is the only piece you have to keep.

[Eminor3rd]

"Other teams say the Tigers are willing to surrender top prospects Nick Castellanos or Avisail Garcia if necessary. The team is focused on finding a closer."

 

So there.

 

That has nothing to do with Addison Reed. Again, why do you think the Tigers team of professionals scouts and administrators are going to overrate Reed when we won't?

[Jerksticks]

That has nothing to do with Addison Reed. Again, why do you think the Tigers team of professionals scouts and administrators are going to overrate Reed when we won't?

 

???

It has everything to do with Reed- he's a closer. I don't think anybody really thinks the Tigers want Reed or want to deal with us either though, but why are the Tigers immune from desperation and overrating?

 

Why wouldn't Reed be on the short list of available, quality closers?

 

Has anybody made the list yet? I'd say you can put Crain on it.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Jerksticks

[The Ultimate Champion]

That has nothing to do with Addison Reed. Again, why do you think the Tigers team of professionals scouts and administrators are going to overrate Reed when we won't?

 

???

It has everything to do with Reed- he's a closer. I don't think anybody really thinks the Tigers want Reed or want to deal with us either though, but why are the Tigers immune from desperation and overrating?

 

Why wouldn't Reed be on the short list of available, quality closers?

 

Has anybody made the list yet? I'd say you can put Crain on it.

 

 

[Eminor3rd]

Lol you're trolling me, right? You argue that trading valuable contributors for prospects is stupid. Then you argue that we should trade Reed for prospects. Then you argue that Reed sucks so it's laughable to want to keep him. Then you argue that Reed should be able to fetch one of the highest-rated hitting prospects in the game.

[kitekrazy]

That's why you have to ask for more. It's the tigers. No way you lose that trade. Caste llanos is worth far less than y'all realize. Ilitch wants to win this year not develop a prospect.

 

This. Plus the Tiger have a pretty good pitching coach. They might take Reed.

 

[harfman77]

I couldn't agree more, but maybe the Tigers are thinking they wouldn't want to have Castellanos haunt them in their own division for years to come.

 

This is exactly why this deal wont happen.

 

Position Player >>>> Closer.

 

As desperate as they may be to fill that gap, I can't believe they would give up a potential building block to a division rival. Castellanos is probably the #2 or 3 best 3B prospect in baseball behind Sano and possibly Rendon.

[southsider2k5]

This is exactly why this deal wont happen.

 

Position Player >>>> Closer.

 

As desperate as they may be to fill that gap, I can't believe they would give up a potential building block to a division rival. Castellanos is probably the #2 or 3 best 3B prospect in baseball behind Sano and possibly Rendon.

 

What if the Tigers feel that Addison Reed is the difference between a first round out, and the World Series?

[harfman77]

That's why you have to ask for more. It's the tigers. No way you lose that trade. Caste llanos is worth far less than y'all realize. Ilitch wants to win this year not develop a prospect.

 

And Reed is worth a lot less than most people realize. Closers do not have a track record of bringing back prospects on the level Castellanos. You can ask for more but you wont get it cause someone else will make that deal.

[Balta1701]

And Reed is worth a lot less than most people realize. Closers do not have a track record of bringing back prospects on the level Castellanos. You can ask for more but you wont get it cause someone else will make that deal.

If you don't get what you ask for there's no reason to trade him and we can stop having this conversation.

[Eminor3rd]

What if the Tigers feel that Addison Reed is the difference between a first round out, and the World Series?

 

Then they get Crain for cheaper and have an even better short-term upgrade.

[harfman77]

What if the Tigers feel that Addison Reed is the difference between a first round out, and the World Series?

 

I still think they try and find an alternative, if Papelbon gets moved somewhere else or is taken off the market through some other means, the deal is a lot more likely. You will probably see Avisail Garcia traded to the Philles for Papelbon and $$.

[witesoxfan]

Oh, and those saying they're OK with Garcia for Reed, GTFO. At least when Joe Crede came up and the Sox thought they ahd their 3Bman of the future, he had put up great minor league numbers and won MVPs in the leagues he came up in. Avisail Garcia doesn't walk and hits for mediocre power. It's like Carlos Gomez, except without the speed, which might be nice in like 2017 or so, but not right now or the near future.

[harfman77]

If you don't get what you ask for there's no reason to trade him and we can stop having this conversation.

 

You trade him to get position players back that can contribute everyday for nine innings. A closer really has no value to a last place team. What I am saying, is that you don't get handed a winning lottery ticket, and then say, throw in one more lottery ticket then we have deal. You take your win and move on.

[Balta1701]

You trade him to get position players back that can contribute everyday for nine innings. A closer really has no value to a last place team. What I am saying, is that you don't get handed a winning lottery ticket, and then say, throw in one more lottery ticket then we have deal. You take your win and move on.

Are you predicting that the White Sox will be a last place team for the next 4 seasons? If not, this doesn't stand.

 

The Sox are holding the winning lottery ticket right now, a player who is going to contribute to their team a lot for the next 4 years if he's not moved. If they want to move him, it better be for lottery tickets that have a really good chance of paying off better than the winning ticket they already have.

[harfman77]

Are you predicting that the White Sox will be a last place team for the next 4 seasons? If not, this doesn't stand.

 

The Sox are holding the winning lottery ticket right now, a player who is going to contribute to their team a lot for the next 4 years if he's not moved. If they want to move him, it better be for lottery tickets that have a really good chance of paying off better than the winning ticket they already have.

 

You are trading a four year player for a six year player, and if the team doesn't make moves like this they will be a last place team for the next four years. Castellanos is as major league ready as they come, sure he still might not pan out as an all-star level player, but he would be an upgrade at 3B over anything we currently have. There is depth at the closer position in the farm, Webb will probably be ready to close out games in 2015. There are no rays of light in the farm system to address 3B. This is the type of move that gets the team closer to contention more quickly.

[kitekrazy]

This is exactly why this deal wont happen.

 

Position Player >>>> Closer.

 

As desperate as they may be to fill that gap, I can't believe they would give up a potential building block to a division rival. Castellanos is probably the #2 or 3 best 3B prospect in baseball behind Sano and possibly Rendon.

 

You are thinking with a logical baseball brain. We are talking about the Tigers who paid more than they need to for Fielder. BTW these type of deals happen in pro sports all of the time.