Buddy Bell watching Johnson start

[caulfield12]

I only got to watch the replay but that ball looked like a bad hop. BTW how did all of those men get on base before that?

 

Part of it was deliberately pitching around Gordon to give up a run (that's my opinion).

 

Then you just had some bad luck with Crain fielding (one of the better overall athletes on the team)...it's not like he was hit around. I know the 2nd single of the inning just kind of plopped in there as if it was deliberately thrown from home plate.

 

My perception is that he was deliberately giving up the streak and thought Escobar was an easier out, the right play statistically.

 

But Crain had also thrown roughly 100 pitches in outings almost back-to-back-to-back...Ventura was REALLY pushing his luck, too. He's lucky that he's still an asset for the White Sox after how Robin has ridden him so hard (like Peavy last year).

[fathom]

Part of it was deliberately pitching around Gordon to give up a run (that's my opinion).

 

Then you just had some bad luck with Crain fielding (one of the better overall athletes on the team)...it's not like he was hit around. I know the 2nd single of the inning just kind of plopped in there as if it was deliberately thrown from home plate.

My perception is that he was deliberately giving up the streak and thought Escobar was an easier out, the right play statistically.

 

But Crain had also thrown roughly 100 pitches in outings almost back-to-back-to-back...Ventura was REALLY pushing his luck, too. He's lucky that he's still an asset for the White Sox after how Robin has ridden him so hard (like Peavy last year).

 

Unless it's Barry Bonds when he was incredible, you never walk a guy "intentionally" with the bases loaded.

[caulfield12]

Unless it's Barry Bonds when he was incredible, you never walk a guy "intentionally" with the bases loaded.

 

 

Joe Maddon disagrees with you, lol.

 

Gordon has absolutely been their best hitter, and Escobar has been garbage this season.

 

What he did, despite everything that happened that inning....it SHOULD have worked out for Crain. (I know, this is like Greg's analysis after the fact that if we won, the moves were good/great, if we lost, they therefore were bad/unsound).

[kitekrazy]

Part of it was deliberately pitching around Gordon to give up a run (that's my opinion).

 

Then you just had some bad luck with Crain fielding (one of the better overall athletes on the team)...it's not like he was hit around. I know the 2nd single of the inning just kind of plopped in there as if it was deliberately thrown from home plate.

 

My perception is that he was deliberately giving up the streak and thought Escobar was an easier out, the right play statistically.

 

But Crain had also thrown roughly 100 pitches in outings almost back-to-back-to-back...Ventura was REALLY pushing his luck, too. He's lucky that he's still an asset for the White Sox after how Robin has ridden him so hard (like Peavy last year).

 

So it's easy to make Ramirez the fall guy since he hasn't been playing well. I watched the replay from behind the SS view. That ball was suppose to get closer to the ground as it bounced. After the 2nd hop it took flight. It also looked liked he was on the OF grass. Was he really playing that deep?

 

[caulfield12]

So it's easy to make Ramirez the fall guy since he hasn't been playing well. I watched the replay from behind the SS view. That ball was suppose to get closer to the ground as it bounced. After the 2nd hop it took flight. It also looked liked he was on the OF grass. Was he really playing that deep?

 

 

My problem is not with the bad hop.

 

It's with the "ole/laissez faire" style of not getting in front of the ball...that way, the worse thing that happens if you block it is that one run scores there, not two.

 

Just lazy footwork and not getting in front of the ball enough, playing it to the side.

[cabiness42]

The Sox like having their minor league clubs very close to each other. Really there is only two AAA teams anywhere near Chicago in Indy and Iowa, and they sure aren't going to get Iowa.

 

I understand that there is convenience in having your AAA team near your AA and A teams, but Indianapolis is a market that is not dominated by any single major league team and having the Sox AAA team there could really build a fanbase. You're never going to get busloads of fans going from Charlotte to Chicago to see your favorite Knights play in the majors.

 

Louisville used to be a fairly even mix of Reds/Cards/Braves fans and since the Reds put their AAA team here the Reds are clearly the #1 team.

 

The Sox were just starting to get players from South Bend up to Chicago and really getting a leg up on the Cubs in that market when they pulled out of there.

[Eminor3rd]

I don't think you can send Reed to the Tigers. He's pre-arb. You don't want to give a direct competitor something that's going to hurt you for years down the line. They would have four years of control -- I expect us to be competitive again in 2 or 3.

 

Now, Crain, that's fine. They can hurt us this year all they want, and Crain will a FA or a bad contract by next summer.

[southsider2k5]

I understand that there is convenience in having your AAA team near your AA and A teams, but Indianapolis is a market that is not dominated by any single major league team and having the Sox AAA team there could really build a fanbase. You're never going to get busloads of fans going from Charlotte to Chicago to see your favorite Knights play in the majors.

 

Louisville used to be a fairly even mix of Reds/Cards/Braves fans and since the Reds put their AAA team here the Reds are clearly the #1 team.

 

The Sox were just starting to get players from South Bend up to Chicago and really getting a leg up on the Cubs in that market when they pulled out of there.

 

Speaking of Indy, have you been to the new stadium there? If so, how is it? We might end up down there for a zoo/childrens museum trip this summer.

[caulfield12]

I don't think you can send Reed to the Tigers. He's pre-arb. You don't want to give a direct competitor something that's going to hurt you for years down the line. They would have four years of control -- I expect us to be competitive again in 2 or 3.

 

Now, Crain, that's fine. They can hurt us this year all they want, and Crain will a FA or a bad contract by next summer.

 

 

Then lucky for us that Sergio Santos got hurt. Or there would be a lot more scrutiny of that trade.

[harfman77]

From MLBTR

"Other teams say the Tigers are willing to surrender top prospects Nick Castellanos or Avisail Garcia if necessary. The team is focused on finding a closer."

 

[Chicago White Sox]

From MLBTR

"Other teams say the Tigers are willing to surrender top prospects Nick Castellanos or Avisail Garcia if necessary. The team is focused on finding a closer."

What closers will be available at the deadline? I know Crain isn't a closer technically, but I'd love to hear what the alternatives may be for contending teams.

 

Also, Castellanos definitely has to be the starting point if you consider trading Reed to the Tigers. Otherwise, Hahn should tell them to go f*** themselves.

[elrockinMT]

So it's easy to make Ramirez the fall guy since he hasn't been playing well. I watched the replay from behind the SS view. That ball was suppose to get closer to the ground as it bounced. After the 2nd hop it took flight. It also looked liked he was on the OF grass. Was he really playing that deep?

 

Exactly. We need to blame someone and it's Ramirez in this game. I like what the players said. No one blames the other guy there. The truth of the matter is tghat ramirez is a great fielder. Frustrating that his bat went South. I know he feels real bad about the loss

[elrockinMT]

From MLBTR

"Other teams say the Tigers are willing to surrender top prospects Nick Castellanos or Avisail Garcia if necessary. The team is focused on finding a closer."

 

 

I am guessing we have Crain and Thornton on the block and maybe Reed. But, knowing how unpredictable baseball can be perhaps gthe Tigers pick up Marmol from the Cubs

Edited June 25, 2013 by elrockinMT

[cabiness42]

Speaking of Indy, have you been to the new stadium there? If so, how is it? We might end up down there for a zoo/childrens museum trip this summer.

 

I've not been there yet. Possibly going to a game later this summer.

 

[harfman77]

I am guessing we have Crain and Thornton on the block and maybe Reed. But, knowing how unpredictable baseball can be perhaps gthe Tigers pick up Marmol from the Cubs

 

The Tigers are all in, they will try Rondon out before they get too deep in looking for a guy. Rumor is they are talking to the Phillies about Papelbon. If the Tigers set the market for closers giving Castellanos for Papelbon, that will really drive up the value for Reed given the contract implications of the the two. I dont think there is anyway that the Tigers give up either within the division, but it is nice to dream.

[The Ultimate Champion]

From MLBTR

"Other teams say the Tigers are willing to surrender top prospects Nick Castellanos or Avisail Garcia if necessary. The team is focused on finding a closer."

LOL

 

Yeah trade Reed already. This is like the baseball gods giving love back to Hahn after letting Floyd get hurt. Can't botch this one.

[The Ultimate Champion]

The Tigers are all in, they will try Rondon out before they get too deep in looking for a guy. Rumor is they are talking to the Phillies about Papelbon. If the Tigers set the market for closers giving Castellanos for Papelbon, that will really drive up the value for Reed given the contract implications of the the two. I dont think there is anyway that the Tigers give up either within the division, but it is nice to dream.

If the Tiggers gave up that much for Papelbon AND took on the contract, I don't think that even affects market aside from taking the biggest bidder off it & hurting us. Nobody else would do that.

 

Illitch will make moves over his GM's head, or at least insist on the GM go through with something he doesn't want to do. That's the absolute best case scenario for any team or agent looking to make a deal. God damn we need to take advantage of this. They can take our whole pen if they want it, just give us MLB ready ceiling in return.

[The Ultimate Champion]

I don't think you can send Reed to the Tigers. He's pre-arb. You don't want to give a direct competitor something that's going to hurt you for years down the line. They would have four years of control -- I expect us to be competitive again in 2 or 3.

 

Now, Crain, that's fine. They can hurt us this year all they want, and Crain will a FA or a bad contract by next summer.

LOL

 

If we're playing the Tigers & we're down in the 9th then we're already f***ed as it is.

 

And if you mean Reed helping them beat other teams and helping their record while we're good.... do you really think that in 2-3 years (when you think we'll be good again) Reed will be sooooo good that he'll be a difference maker for that team? Do you not believe that the Tigers could, and would, acquire another closer equally as good in the meantime?

 

Reed may not even be in baseball 2 years from now for all we know. This isn't Sale we're talking about. This is like a total layup and the Sox FO is the WNBA all-star team. There's no way they should be able to screw this one up.

 

BTW, what happens if the Tigers get Reed from us and win a WS this year? Does that negatively affect us? Not really, no. Not if you don't think we're going to be good next year. We'd miss the payroll spike.

 

OTOH, what happens if the Tiggers trade us an all-star for 6 years & they get a halfway decent closer for a couple years who eventually gets hurt/becomes ineffective and is non-tendered? Because that happens all the time with closers. We'd be looking at a deal that Tigers fans would lament for years, and a deal that would be part of the foundation of the legacy Hahn should be trying to build.

 

This is a great f***ing situation for us & it's like half the board wants to be Debbie Downer over Addison Reed. ADDISON REED! LOL

[witesoxfan]

I have no problem trading Reed to Detroit so long as Castellanos is coming over. You think the Tigers want to do that?

[Jerksticks]

I have no problem trading Reed to Detroit so long as Castellanos is coming over. You think the Tigers want to do that?

 

Reed has a nice track record closing out games. Castellanos has a blank resume with no past experience. If I'm Hahn, I'm asking for more to insulate against a total bust.

 

 

[witesoxfan]

Reed has a nice track record closing out games. Castellanos has a blank resume with no past experience. If I'm Hahn, I'm asking for more to insulate against a total bust.

 

You can ask for more if you want, I have no problem with that, but Castellanos is hitting well as a 21 year old in AAA. I get excited about hitters like that.

[Y2Jimmy0]

Reed has a nice track record closing out games. Castellanos has a blank resume with no past experience. If I'm Hahn, I'm asking for more to insulate against a total bust.

 

 

Huh? Nick Castellanos is going to hit in the big leagues and play 3rd base. Addison Reed is a relief pitcher. Are you kidding? If the Tigers offered us Castellanos for anyone on our roster other than Sale, I'd personally drive that player to Detroit.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Reed has a nice track record closing out games. Castellanos has a blank resume with no past experience. If I'm Hahn, I'm asking for more to insulate against a total bust.

You make a good point. The only thing is, when it comes to players of that level of ability, as unproven prospects, you have to acquire them either before they've done anything or after they busted. Otherwise if they are doing it in the Majors you just don't get them at all. That's why it makes sense to take such a risk with a young relief pitcher over a young starter or young position player (not that we have tons of those anyway).

 

I definitely think we have to target MLB-ready players across the board. We'll have to bring in guys who are ready or very close to it & rely on our own scouting dept. to build the lower ranks of the farm, and continue building what we already have down there. We really need help at every level, but especially the MLB level. You just can't trade all your proven players for A ballers, that s*** doesn't work if you want to be good at any point this century.

[Balta1701]

I definitely think we have to target MLB-ready players across the board. We'll have to bring in guys who are ready or very close to it & rely on our own scouting dept. to build the lower ranks of the farm, and continue building what we already have down there. We really need help at every level, but especially the MLB level. You just can't trade all your proven players for A ballers, that s*** doesn't work if you want to be good at any point this century.

Worth remembering though...what level of MLB-ready prospect do you get for middle relief? Even if they're having a great season like Crain, 2 months of a middle reliever doesn't get you all that great of a return if you focus solely on guys who can contribute next year. Ditto Thornton, Lindstrom.

 

Peavy or Rios or Reed, if they're dealt...guys like that you're right, you don't want to take a guy with 20 innings in AA ball for Peavy and then have him turn into Nestor Molina, you want a guy who can contribute next year.

 

But the other guys who might be moved, there could be a lot more value available if you target people who are a year or more away.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Worth remembering though...what level of MLB-ready prospect do you get for middle relief? Even if they're having a great season like Crain, 2 months of a middle reliever doesn't get you all that great of a return if you focus solely on guys who can contribute next year. Ditto Thornton, Lindstrom.

 

Peavy or Rios or Reed, if they're dealt...guys like that you're right, you don't want to take a guy with 20 innings in AA ball for Peavy and then have him turn into Nestor Molina, you want a guy who can contribute next year.

 

But the other guys who might be moved, there could be a lot more value available if you target people who are a year or more away.

I think the first group you're targeting "bust" and "change of scenery" types. The O's keep throwing Arrietta out there it seems, waiting for something to bite on. How much patience will the Royals have with Moose? As much as with Gordon? Because Moose, while an excellent prospect & high draft pick, was never garnering anything like George Brett comps.

 

We may get our next Uribe or Thornton that way. That would be very nice.

 

I just don't like dealing contributors for shot in the dark A ballers unless your scouts really love the guy, at least not if you can get MLB ready types. We have all kinds of open spots this year & on the 2014 club, we need to audition some players.