You = Hahn. Do you heavily shop Reed, Yes or No?

[The Ultimate Champion]

All a closer is is a really good setup man who can get 3 outs in the 9th inning without falling apart.

 

Relievers in general are volatile. When you have a Reed you keep him if you're contending, but if you are not, and you have just about nothing positionally at the AA/AAA level, and absolutely nothing as far as run producers, then you trade him. Because he's really not all that special. He has nice numbers, but he's not a once in a generation type of arm, not even close to it.

[NorthSideSox72]

Sox do have a couple guys in the minors who look like real possibilities for future closing, Webb most prominently. I like Vance a lot too. And I agree that with the team doing as it is, having a proven closer like Reed (still can't figure why someone said UNproven earlier) isn't overly valuable FOR NOW.

 

But I do believe that 2014 is still in play - this is not a club that is going to, or needs to, do a complete teardown and 4 year plan. So, if you are trading 2-3 bullpen guys already, you'd better get a really good value in return for Reed. Webb and Jones, plus some one remaining vet (Lindstrom maybe), plus flotsam... doesn't make for a spectacular bullpen, probably.

 

[Jerksticks]

All a closer is is a really good setup man who can get 3 outs in the 9th inning without falling apart.

 

Relievers in general are volatile. When you have a Reed you keep him if you're contending, but if you are not, and you have just about nothing positionally at the AA/AAA level, and absolutely nothing as far as run producers, then you trade him. Because he's really not all that special. He has nice numbers, but he's not a once in a generation type of arm, not even close to it.

Totally. If trading him is necessary to get us a good bat then by all means. Anything to keep us from signing any of these 30 yr old FAs.

[greg775]

It's all about talent return.

 

We can trade Rios and get "salary relief" but he's our best offensive player, currently.

 

We might get a couple of decent prospects, but we're not going to get any future superstars, and it's doubtful one of them would even replace Rios' offensive production in time.

 

The one thing the White Sox minor league system has done a good job of producing is relievers, as well as identifying guys like Jenks and Santos in other organizations.

 

Unless we buy at top dollar on the free agent market, we're not going to replace Rios.....and Thompson needs to be in CF to be at his highest value as a contributor at the big league level. And I won't even get started on Hawkins.

 

With all due respect, if you can trade Rios, get rid of him now. What have we ever won with Rios? Stick Danks out there and get what we can get for Rios, the ultimate gamer (sarcasm). I'm all for revamping our everyday lineup, keeping our pitching.

Edited June 24, 2013 by greg775

[kitekrazy]

With all due respect, if you can trade Rios, get rid of him now. What have we ever won with Rios? Stick Danks out there and get what we can get for Rios, the ultimate gamer (sarcasm). I'm all for revamping our everyday lineup, keeping our pitching.

 

Considering what he is getting paid and what he does he is living up to his value compared to the likes of Hamilton. This is not a salary dump type trade.

 

[sammy esposito]

Considering what he is getting paid and what he does he is living up to his value compared to the likes of Hamilton. This is not a salary dump type trade.

he is giving it all this year might not be anything left for next year

[sammy esposito]

Considering what he is getting paid and what he does he is living up to his value compared to the likes of Hamilton. This is not a salary dump type trade.

he is giving it all this year might not be anything left for next year

[Balta1701]

he is giving it all this year might not be anything left for next year

But he did the exact same thing last year.

[GreenSox]

NO trades for salary relief. Get maximum talent. The budget will be smaller next year anyway as we regroup - there's the salary relief.

[kitekrazy]

NO trades for salary relief. Get maximum talent. The budget will be smaller next year anyway as we regroup - there's the salary relief.

 

I'm against trading Peavy at the break unless it's too good to be true. I would see what he fetches in the off season.

 

[harfman77]

I'm against trading Peavy at the break unless it's too good to be true. I would see what he fetches in the off season.

 

Mid-season deals tend to yield more as teams that find themselves in contention will give up more to make a playoff push, especially when their competitors are upgrading.

[witesoxfan]

Mid-season deals tend to yield more as teams that find themselves in contention will give up more to make a playoff push, especially when their competitors are upgrading.

 

Good GMs get more than bad GMs regardless of the time of year players are dealt. The White Sox got absolutely nothing dealing guys like Durham, Lofton, Mackowiak, Iguchi, Thome, and Contreras over the years at the deadline, while the Indians ended up with guys like Ben Broussard (when he was good), Shin-Soo Choo, and Carlos Santana.

[Balta1701]

Good GMs get more than bad GMs regardless of the time of year players are dealt. The White Sox got absolutely nothing dealing guys like Durham, Lofton, Mackowiak, Iguchi, Thome, and Contreras over the years at the deadline, while the Indians ended up with guys like Ben Broussard (when he was good), Shin-Soo Choo, and Carlos Santana.

LOL to complaining about not getting anything back in those deals. Durham, fine. The rest?

[Steve9347]

Of course you shop Reed. If you can get any sort of value for a relief pitcher, you always do it.

 

I screamed this about Bobby Jenks, and then as relievers tend to do he fell apart.

 

Don't give Reed away - but trade him if there's value coming back.

[witesoxfan]

LOL to complaining about not getting anything back in those deals. Durham, fine. The rest?

 

That's not what I was debating. I was basically saying that it doesn't matter when or where you make trades, the return won't change that greatly. Teams are less willing to give up premier talent in the offseason, so the theory goes, because they can sign guys, but there are more teams who feel they can compete, so you may be able to parlay that into a nice deal. Teams are more willing to give up premier talent to get the missing piece at the deadline, but there are fewer teams willing to give those pieces up, so it's harder to pit teams against each other. At the end of the day, it's up to the GM to make the move to bring in the talent.

 

No, I don't care that all the Sox got for Kenny Lofton was Felix Diaz and Ryan Meaux and that is entirely besides the point. I did bring it up in a funny way though.

[harfman77]

That's not what I was debating. I was basically saying that it doesn't matter when or where you make trades, the return won't change that greatly. Teams are less willing to give up premier talent in the offseason, so the theory goes, because they can sign guys, but there are more teams who feel they can compete, so you may be able to parlay that into a nice deal. Teams are more willing to give up premier talent to get the missing piece at the deadline, but there are fewer teams willing to give those pieces up, so it's harder to pit teams against each other. At the end of the day, it's up to the GM to make the move to bring in the talent.

 

No, I don't care that all the Sox got for Kenny Lofton was Felix Diaz and Ryan Meaux and that is entirely besides the point. I did bring it up in a funny way though.

 

 

It absolutely does matter when. Casey Blake does not bring you back Carlos Santana in December, even if you are paying his salary. He does in July because the Dodgers have a hole and see Casey Blake as a piece to solidify their lineup for a playoff run. There is a lot more pressure for a GM to make moves in season to respond to moves that their division rivals make, mostly because of the cutoff of the trade deadline (unless you take your chances with players making it through waivers). In the offseason they have a long time to let things play out before there is a real need to make a move.

 

Most of the Sox deadline deals that you mention have been little more than salary dumps, which you would see if the Sox were to move Dunn. So to cite them is a red herring. Not sure the Sox have made many valuable players for prospect trades since the white flag deal, the team has generally operated in the opposite mode. Sergio Santos for Nester Molina was an offseason deal that really brought back pennies on the dollar.

 

According to fangraphs the Sox have the best offensive trade chip in Rios, the ninth best offensive player and second best shortstop in Alexi, the number three starter and number two reliever. That is a lot of value to work with, especially for teams that feel they are a player away from having a world series caliber teams.

 

EDIT: In addition to pressure to make the playoffs, there are usually more active buyers in the summer to play against each other. For instance, the Padres, Giants and Dodgers all want a SP and dont want the other teams to get him so they are willing to pay more to keep your guy away from them.

Edited June 25, 2013 by IowaSoxFan

[Steve9347]

It absolutely does matter when. Casey Blake does not bring you back Carlos Santana in December, even if you are paying his salary. He does in July because the Dodgers have a hole and see Casey Blake as a piece to solidify their lineup for a playoff run. There is a lot more pressure for a GM to make moves in season to respond to moves that their division rivals make, mostly because of the cutoff of the trade deadline (unless you take your chances with players making it through waivers). In the offseason they have a long time to let things play out before there is a real need to make a move.

 

Most of the Sox deadline deals that you mention have been little more than salary dumps, which you would see if the Sox were to move Dunn. So to cite them is a red herring. Not sure the Sox have made many valuable players for prospect trades since the white flag deal, the team has generally operated in the opposite mode. Sergio Santos for Nester Molina was an offseason deal that really brought back pennies on the dollar.

 

According to fangraphs the Sox have the best offensive trade chip in Rios, the ninth best offensive player and second best shortstop in Alexi, the number three starter and number two reliever. That is a lot of value to work with, especially for teams that feel they are a player away from having a world series caliber teams.

 

EDIT: In addition to pressure to make the playoffs, there are usually more active buyers in the summer to play against each other. For instance, the Padres, Giants and Dodgers all want a SP and dont want the other teams to get him so they are willing to pay more to keep your guy away from them.

Holy crap, Wite got schooled.

 

Don't see that too often.

[witesoxfan]

Really, the difference in what you'd get for Ramirez, Peavy, or Reed would not be any different this offseason than it would at the deadline. The Mariners traded Adam Jones, George Sherrill, Chris Tillman, and two others for Erik Bedard. The Tigers, Cubs, and Red Sox gave the Marlins a zillion players in their deals. The only reason you deal those guys right now is

 

1) if you feel you are getting max value

2) you feel that said players are at max value

 

Yes, you have to deal guys like Crain, Thornton, and Lindstrom because they are free agents to be, but there's no need to deal the first 3 mentioned because they really are not going to lose value between now and then.

 

Rios could lose value. The outfield class is pretty deep and diverse so trading him now while he is currently the best offensive bat makes sense. I'll "concede" that point. There could be others that become available between now and mid July too. Then again, you can keep him in the off chance you compete next year.

 

But to suggest that you are going to get more or less for Ramirez, Peavy, or Reed right now is silly. Ramirez is going to be one of the best SS's available both in July and December - your free agent shortstops are Peralta, Drew, Yunel Escobar, and Furcal. That is, quite frankly, a terrible class. There are all kinds of high upside starters that can be brought in during free agency, but most will be high risk as well. And Reed is a 24 year old closer who will end the year with just over 2 years of service time who is currently averaging 9+ K/9 with a 4 K/BB. If you want to shop him now, you can, but unless his arm blows up between now and December (knock on wood), his value will go UP.

 

The only 3 that need to be moved are the 3 relievers I mentioned. Rios would be a good one to trade too, but, as mentioned, he doesn't have to go anywhere. Same goes for Ramirez, Peavy, and Reed.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Yes has finally overtaken No on the poll. f*** yeah. Hahn, now it's on you. Get to work.

 

And let's please do this deal with the Tigers. I'd love to win that game of chicken, where our scouts cherry pick from their farm system & the deal gets done over the head of the GM on behalf of the owner's desire to win. f*** yeah, make it happen.

 

Reed to the Tigers, along with Crain or Thornton?

 

And you know what? We have the goods to make that deal (f*** yeah) and then still get on the phone - let's make it a conference call - with Oakland & Texas. Let's let them know we're open for business & we have the goods to give either of them a huge lift over the competition, then let's see who wants it more. f*** yeah. Let's do this.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Really, the difference in what you'd get for Ramirez, Peavy, or Reed would not be any different this offseason than it would at the deadline. The Mariners traded Adam Jones, George Sherrill, Chris Tillman, and two others for Erik Bedard. The Tigers, Cubs, and Red Sox gave the Marlins a zillion players in their deals. The only reason you deal those guys right now is

 

1) if you feel you are getting max value

2) you feel that said players are at max value

 

Yes, you have to deal guys like Crain, Thornton, and Lindstrom because they are free agents to be, but there's no need to deal the first 3 mentioned because they really are not going to lose value between now and then.

 

Rios could lose value. The outfield class is pretty deep and diverse so trading him now while he is currently the best offensive bat makes sense. I'll "concede" that point. There could be others that become available between now and mid July too. Then again, you can keep him in the off chance you compete next year.

 

But to suggest that you are going to get more or less for Ramirez, Peavy, or Reed right now is silly. Ramirez is going to be one of the best SS's available both in July and December - your free agent shortstops are Peralta, Drew, Yunel Escobar, and Furcal. That is, quite frankly, a terrible class. There are all kinds of high upside starters that can be brought in during free agency, but most will be high risk as well. And Reed is a 24 year old closer who will end the year with just over 2 years of service time who is currently averaging 9+ K/9 with a 4 K/BB. If you want to shop him now, you can, but unless his arm blows up between now and December (knock on wood), his value will go UP.

 

The only 3 that need to be moved are the 3 relievers I mentioned. Rios would be a good one to trade too, but, as mentioned, he doesn't have to go anywhere. Same goes for Ramirez, Peavy, and Reed.

I disagree 1000000000000% on Reed or any excellent reliever for that matter. Every ST, every signle one of the 30 teams has a few arms they are looking at & thinking they are potential dark horse difference makers. Maybe they are guys who spent the last season in the minors, maybe Rule-5 guys, guys who had a cup of coffee in September & performed well, etc. In the offseason you figure you have all of spring & maybe a coup[le months of the regular season to get your closer s*** straightened out, and things are always looking rosy then. But then Bruce Rondon take a big dump in your cereal & Jose Valverde is also taking dumps on various places of the field & you have no answer/. What do you do? You need to win now, so you bite the bullet and you ask yourself "Is the future of (insert prospect/young players name here) REALLY worth gambling this entire season on? Really? We could win it all this year!" And then you make that trade, knowing you may lose, but you do it to save the season. Reed is a game-changing potential season saver for the right team. In the offseason, he's a good closer but probably not worth spending money on when you think you have Bruce Rondon in there & Jose Valverde sitting around on his ass as a backup plan.

 

The time is NOW. NOW IS THE TIME. Trade Reed, that's all I'm saying. f*** yeah.

 

[witesoxfan]

I voted no just to spite you because I felt like it.

 

Really, Hahn should be "shopping" the entire team yet not "shopping" anybody whatsoever. If someone comes to you with an intriguing idea for Addison Reed, don't be afraid to pull the trigger or counter, but at the same time, don't go out of your way to trade him because he's an incredibly valuable pitcher.

[The Ultimate Champion]

I voted no just to spite you because I felt like it.

 

Really, Hahn should be "shopping" the entire team yet not "shopping" anybody whatsoever. If someone comes to you with an intriguing idea for Addison Reed, don't be afraid to pull the trigger or counter, but at the same time, don't go out of your way to trade him because he's an incredibly valuable pitcher.

You should have voted YES because you know it is RIGHT.

 

You can't shop everyone. Your scouts aren't like teleporting ghosts things who can go from game to game player to player all the time & be in like 50 different minor league stadiums at the same time like god or something. You need to identify WHICH SPECIFIC PLAYERS (I'm yelling there) are going to bring back the best return & then get on the phione, see what other teams are offering, dispatch your goons, get busy. You don't just sit there writing dfown lists, you have to get serious on some players. I say, you get real serious on Alexei, Reed, Rios, Crain because those are the guys who have good value right now. Peavy is probably a lowball offer, screw it. Lindstrom, Thornton are "add-ons" in bigger packages, or somethign like that.

 

 

[witesoxfan]

You should have voted YES because you know it is RIGHT.

 

You can't shop everyone. Your scouts aren't like teleporting ghosts things who can go from game to game player to player all the time & be in like 50 different minor league stadiums at the same time like god or something. You need to identify WHICH SPECIFIC PLAYERS (I'm yelling there) are going to bring back the best return & then get on the phione, see what other teams are offering, dispatch your goons, get busy. You don't just sit there writing dfown lists, you have to get serious on some players. I say, you get real serious on Alexei, Reed, Rios, Crain because those are the guys who have good value right now. Peavy is probably a lowball offer, screw it. Lindstrom, Thornton are "add-ons" in bigger packages, or somethign like that.

 

If that's how you want to go about it, then no, I'm not dealing Reed, because I believe he will bring more back in value next year and the following years. Taking everything into consideration, I'm dealing De Aza before I'm dealing Addison Reed. In fact, I think I'd have Reed about 10th on that list simply because his value has not been maximized yet.

 

Reed struggled down the stretch last year and has been great for almost a half year this year. No team is going to give up a ton for a guy like that. He's not putting up Kimbrel numbers by any stretch. But if he does this all year, you can look to move him in the offseason or you can look to move him next deadline.

Edited June 25, 2013 by witesoxfan

[caulfield12]

Rios and Crain will obviously get us more now. Lindstrom because of his salary being so low, and Thornton will be one of those typical salary dumps where we get back a negligible return.

 

Peavy, the injury makes it a good debate about holding on to him. Ramirez, it could go either way.

 

If Dunn stays hot another month, he could make things very interesting, so could Konerko.

 

[The Ultimate Champion]

Why even try dealing DeAza? Who is going to give up anything of significance for him alone? He's like Lindstrom, Thornton, he's an add-on. You expand the deal if the team you're talking Crain/Reed/Rios/Peavy/Alexei with has a need for an OF & you want to get a better player than what is being offered.

 

You're still ignoring the one most obvious point, which is that Reed during the middle of the season is goign to be worth a lot more. There are no more internal options for some clubs, because you can't just keep losing games/overworking your pen and "living with the mistakes" or whatever your young players are giving you. Also, there are setup men who could be tried as closers as well as closers on the FA market, you have to compete with them as well.

 

Reed's value right now will likely never be higher. I still have yet to see any convincing argument against trading him. We're going to be bad the rest of this year, probably at least not very good next year, and we can't reasonably hope to contend seriously until at least 2015. So you hold onto Reed for what?

 

And Kimbrel... the Braves are contending, what does he have to do with anything? He's not available. Reed is the best guy on the market. The Sox have Crain, Thornton, Lindstrom, even Axe as a longman, to add to a deal. A team with major bullpen concerns could be saved by Rick Hahn. But there's a hefty price for that, which is why you put that option out there. How much is a WS championship worth to the Tigers right now? Are you really going to hang onto that prospect/young player (who is unproven and maybe a bust anyway) and risk toileting an entire season?

 

You're asking Ricky Hahn to chop his balls off. I'm asking him to flaunt them, shake them around, let those little beads of ball sweat fling off like little rockets & coat the faces of his competitors. That's all I'm saying, f*** yeah, trade Reed.