If we do go on a fire sale, would you consider trading Chris Sale

[thxfrthmmrs]

See, I disagree. with the principle here. I think that by far teh easiest way to stay in contention for the long term is to have an ace pitcher. If you can get that, then you've gotten the hardest part done. That reshapes your entire team, especially if he's underpaid relative to his performance.

 

How confident are you that Sale can be the ace long term? If we are in the same situation now, and the guy we are talking about is Verlander, Cain, Harvey, or even Matt Moore, I wouldn't consider it either.

[Balta1701]

How confident are you that Sale can be the ace long term? If we are in the same situation now, and the guy we are talking about is Verlander, Cain, Harvey, or even Matt Moore, I wouldn't consider it either.

I'm as confident in Sale as any of them at this point. Verlander is older and much more expensive. In case you haven't noticed, Matt Cain has an ERA in the mid-4's right now. The others don't have the record of Sale yet.

 

We're good at keeping guys healthy. This is our task.

[Quin]

While I enjoy the pun of fire Sale, unless a team with a great farm system comes calling and offering their top 10 prospects, no.

[thxfrthmmrs]

I'm as confident in Sale as any of them at this point. Verlander is older and much more expensive. In case you haven't noticed, Matt Cain has an ERA in the mid-4's right now. The others don't have the record of Sale yet.

 

We're good at keeping guys healthy. This is our task.

 

Neither of us have hard evidence on this. This is just based on our instincts.

 

So your are saying even the best of them aren't reliable to stay healthy/effective in the long term, yet we should hold on to them even if we will go on a 2-3 year drought, even though Sale isn't a safe bet to stay healthy to begin with. So why take on the risk if someone offer you a premium bat or two, which is more of a guarantee to contribute in the term, health wise? Also, in recent years we have had better luck developing pitchers, but no success on the hitting front so far.

 

By your logic, you are really confident that the Sox will compete again as soon as next year with the $30 mil or so they have to spend, given how many whatever positions we have to fill.

[Jake]

I have no reason to believe that Chris is any bigger risk than any other starting pitcher at this point. All starters are risky. You might lose a season to injury and/or ineffectiveness, but that's part of the deal. You'd have to get a Giancarlo Stanton++ type package to make sure you're getting another cornerstone in return and that makes you wonder why you would have dealt him in the first place.

[thxfrthmmrs]

I have no reason to believe that Chris is any bigger risk than any other starting pitcher at this point. All starters are risky. You might lose a season to injury and/or ineffectiveness, but that's part of the deal. You'd have to get a Giancarlo Stanton++ type package to make sure you're getting another cornerstone in return and that makes you wonder why you would have dealt him in the first place.

 

 

Most of the time, ineffectiveness due to mechanics/physical wear and tear is long term, not a single season. Exhibit A, Tim Lincecum.

 

Pitching wins championship, we can agree on that. It comes down to whether you build your core pitching first, and wait for your hitting to come along, or build up your hitting now, and sign / trade for pitchers when you are ready. Given the risk and fragility of pitchers you just mentioned as part of the deal, which route would you take?

 

I don't see us competing with the Tigers for another two years. By that time, Sale would have been pitching for 6 to 7 seasons, at least 3-4 seasons of 200 innings+. The risk is higher than ever given his frame/mechanics.

 

Conventional wisdom says you always need an ace atop your staff, and don't let him go if you are looking to compete. But does conventional wisdom apply in every scenario and does conventional wisdom always win you championships?

 

 

[LittleHurt05]

If Mike Trout is available yes. If not, no.

 

or Bryce Harper (although I'd hate rooting for him). Other than that, I agree 100%.

[Heads22]

I'd only trade him for the kind of package that we wouldn't be able to get. He's literally a Cy Young caliber pitcher signed to an incredibly team-friendly deal just entering his mid 20s - and he's just about the only draw we have to get people to the ballpark.

 

He's what we're hoping we would get in these trades.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Put it this way: if you WIN the deal IMMEDIATELY on paper AND you appear to be better off because of that deal over the length Sale's contract, then yes, you trade him. And that doesn't happen when you are dealing in prospects. If there's a team ready to pay with a bunch of Major Leaguers then sure. Not going to happen though, especially when Price & Stanton are on the market for the right amount of talent back. Both BTW should be cheaper than Sale since Sale comes at cost certainty without the FA clouds hanging over his head (Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, Angels, Cubs? etc.) how many teams can or would dare to outbid those guys?

[caulfield12]

Put it this way: if you WIN the deal IMMEDIATELY on paper AND you appear to be better off because of that deal over the length Sale's contract, then yes, you trade him. And that doesn't happen when you are dealing in prospects. If there's a team ready to pay with a bunch of Major Leaguers then sure. Not going to happen though, especially when Price & Stanton are on the market for the right amount of talent back. Both BTW should be cheaper than Sale since Sale comes at cost certainty without the FA clouds hanging over his head (Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, Angels, Cubs? etc.) how many teams can or would dare to outbid those guys?

 

 

With those $25 million dollar checks going out to all the teams, you might be surprised how many "not traditional" powers might get involved in bidding for their own superstar.

[The Ultimate Champion]

I think it'll just make things worse, more average/decent players getting paid like stars, higher arbitration costs making it harder to keep players for 6 years, more bad deals, more average player + ton of cash for middle-tier prospect deals, etc. These f***ers all across the board are making too much cash. If the going rate for an ace rises from $25M per over 5-6 years to $30M per over 7 years then lol, f*** this garbage, I hope they all get hit by trains.

[fathom]

I have no reason to believe that Chris is any bigger risk than any other starting pitcher at this point. All starters are risky. You might lose a season to injury and/or ineffectiveness, but that's part of the deal. You'd have to get a Giancarlo Stanton++ type package to make sure you're getting another cornerstone in return and that makes you wonder why you would have dealt him in the first place.

 

I said it the other day, but only way I'd consider trading Sale for anyone outside of Harper/Trout/Machado is if it's to the Cardinals with Crain or Alexei for a package like Taveras, Wong, Adams, Rosenthal and Martinez. Basically, it's not going to happen.

[Heads22]

I said it the other day, but only way I'd consider trading Sale for anyone outside of Harper/Trout/Machado is if it's to the Cardinals with Crain or Alexei for a package like Taveras, Wong, Adams, Rosenthal and Martinez. Basically, it's not going to happen.

 

 

Yup. The kind of talent that he'd theoretically be worth on an open marketplace could be extraordinary, but, it's not a price we could realize.

 

Nor do I actually want to trade him.

[WHarris1]

I said it the other day, but only way I'd consider trading Sale for anyone outside of Harper/Trout/Machado

In a period of time where there isn't much to be happy about with the ball club, its nice to read that and believe it.

[fathom]

In a period of time where there isn't much to be happy about with the ball club, its nice to read that and believe it.

 

Matt Harvey is pretty close to that level, but I'll take Sale just due to the contract.

[greg775]

No. Our goal is to be good as soon as possible and as long as possible. Almost any reasonable offer for Sale would undermine both of these goals.

 

Great post. How can anybody argue with Jake regarding this topic?

[greg775]

No. Our goal is to be good as soon as possible and as long as possible. Almost any reasonable offer for Sale would undermine both of these goals.

 

Great post. How can anybody argue with Jake regarding this topic?

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I voted no. The belief the Sox have to take is that we have the starting pitching already. We do not have the bats or defense. We lose most games by 1-3 runs. Strategy going forward is keep the starting pitching , see what we can get for what we do trade away and go from there. Get younger, get more defense, get bats , dump salary ,even get more pitching . We average 1-1.5 more run per game , which may not seem like a lot but is, and we are right back in the thick of things. Add run prevention and run production but don't touch the starting pitching.

[2nd_city_saint787]

It also depends on how the staff thinks of our other pitchers. If they think Q, Santiago, Danks or EJ can become a #2 pitcher and Jake can continue to pitch like an ace then I'd make a trade that significantly upgrades the offense.

[beautox]

The sox have a well above average core of pitching between Sale, Santiago, Danks & Quintana. The question mark remains with Johnson and what he will be able to produce once he gets the call. This offseason with all of the money coming off the books they need to lock up that core for a very long time similar deals to matt moore for Santiago and Quintana.

 

To be competitive the sox only need a league average offense with how good their rotation is. Do not touch any of the pitchers above or reed, this rebuild shouldn't take that long if its done right.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I said it the other day, but only way I'd consider trading Sale for anyone outside of Harper/Trout/Machado is if it's to the Cardinals with Crain or Alexei for a package like Taveras, Wong, Adams, Rosenthal and Martinez. Basically, it's not going to happen.

 

Don't forget Posey. He's good.

[Jake]

Don't forget Posey. He's good.

 

Catchers seem to be as big of a gamble as anyone and his megadeal makes him significantly less attractive, even though I'm sure I'd be happy that he signed it if I was a Giants fan.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Catchers seem to be as big of a gamble as anyone and his megadeal makes him significantly less attractive, even though I'm sure I'd be happy that he signed it if I was a Giants fan.

 

The Giants are a Posey injury away from a possible 3-peat (at the very least I think they make the playoffs in '11 and with their pitching?). Dude is just special. I'd do anything to get him. I'd blow a dude.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Jordan4life

[Dick Allen]

If you trade Sale then what is the point? He is young and signed he is a building block not a trading block.

The point is if you are going to be bad for a long time, like the Astros, Sale pitching ffor several years in meaningless games only increases his chances of getting hurt. He has already missed starts the last 2 seasons with soreness. So the other point would be, when you are ready to win, Sale would be more expensive and perhaps not nearly as effective. If it were a guarantee he would be healthy when the Sox were ready to win, you would not trade him, but pitchers, especially him, are far more likely to acquire a devasting injury than position players.

[caulfield12]

The point is if you are going to be bad for a long time, like the Astros, Sale pitching ffor several years in meaningless games only increases his chances of getting hurt. He has already missed starts the last 2 seasons with soreness. So the other point would be, when you are ready to win, Sale would be more expensive and perhaps not nearly as effective. If it were a guarantee he would be healthy when the Sox were ready to win, you would not trade him, but pitchers, especially him, are far more likely to acquire a devasting injury than position players.

 

Cano isn't talking about his contract publicly, but he has told friends that he'd like something in the neighborhood of a $275MM deal, reminiscent of Alex Rodriguez's deal. The Yankees aren't believed to be anywhere close to that, however, and at one point they suggested something closer to David Wright's eight-year, $138MM contract.

 

The second baseman is the top ranked free agent on Tim Dierkes' 2014 Free Agent Power Rankings. While he's still having a strong year, his numbers are down from his 2012 campaign in which he hit .313/.379/.550 with 33 homers.

 

 

We might want to forget about that Robinson Cano pipe dream right now.

 

If we're going to spend our way back into contention, it's going to have to be veterans coming off of down seasons, injuries, aging veterans in the Utley mold that we're gambling have 1-2 good seasons left before going completely south.

 

Along with the fact that Beckham and probably Viciedo (he will get at least one more year) are the two likeliest players right now to be around for 2014.

 

Edited June 24, 2013 by caulfield12