If we do go on a fire sale, would you consider trading Chris Sale

[caulfield12]

The point is if you are going to be bad for a long time, like the Astros, Sale pitching ffor several years in meaningless games only increases his chances of getting hurt. He has already missed starts the last 2 seasons with soreness. So the other point would be, when you are ready to win, Sale would be more expensive and perhaps not nearly as effective. If it were a guarantee he would be healthy when the Sox were ready to win, you would not trade him, but pitchers, especially him, are far more likely to acquire a devasting injury than position players.

 

 

Another concern is he tries to do too much or gets frustrated with the current state of affairs and hurts himself "trying too hard" or overthrowing.

 

He was all the way up to 97 MPH in a recent game...that's pretty unusual for him as a starter.

[LittleHurt05]

Don't forget Posey. He's good.

 

He's expensive, those other 3 guys are still very cheap and far away from a huge payday.

[Chicago White Sox]

Trading Sale makes no sense to me. We actually have a nice, young rotation we can build around with a legitimate ace at the front of it. That's what every team in baseball is hoping for and you don't reshuffle the deck once you have one.

 

Yes, we basically need to rebuild the entire offense, but an offense can be fixed much faster than a pitching staff, especially if we make a couple smart trades at the deadline and are willing to buy a couple agents in the offseason. I'm all for selling pieces right now, but trading Sale to fix the offense is just going to create a gaping hole in the rotation that will be nearly impossible to fill in the future.

[Balta1701]

Cano isn't talking about his contract publicly, but he has told friends that he'd like something in the neighborhood of a $275MM deal, reminiscent of Alex Rodriguez's deal. The Yankees aren't believed to be anywhere close to that, however, and at one point they suggested something closer to David Wright's eight-year, $138MM contract.

 

The second baseman is the top ranked free agent on Tim Dierkes' 2014 Free Agent Power Rankings. While he's still having a strong year, his numbers are down from his 2012 campaign in which he hit .313/.379/.550 with 33 homers.

 

 

We might want to forget about that Robinson Cano pipe dream right now.

 

If we're going to spend our way back into contention, it's going to have to be veterans coming off of down seasons, injuries, aging veterans in the Utley mold that we're gambling have 1-2 good seasons left before going completely south.

 

Along with the fact that Beckham and probably Viciedo (he will get at least one more year) are the two likeliest players right now to be around for 2014.

Cano will turn 31 this offseason. The only teams dumb enough to offer him 10 years at that type of number would be the LA teams.

 

Beckham is actually hitting well enough right now that I'm not sure that's the right place to spend the money anyway.

[Balta1701]

It also depends on how the staff thinks of our other pitchers. If they think Q, Santiago, Danks or EJ can become a #2 pitcher and Jake can continue to pitch like an ace then I'd make a trade that significantly upgrades the offense.

Problem with this is the contracts. Jake Peavy is signed through 2014. Chris Sale is signed through 2019. If you think Jake is your ace, and you fail to retain Sale, then you wind up having to replace yet another ace.

[Dunt]

The only way you move Sale is if you are blown away by the offer and your system is stocked immediately after the trade. I would probably loathe the Sox for moving him, but I would understand. The proposed Cardinals package would do it, but not much else. Maybe something like Taillon, Polanco, Hanson, and a few other prospects would do it from the Pirates.

[harfman77]

No one is untouchable, I would definitely trade Sale for the right package of players. There are probably only 4-5 franchises in baseball that could offer a suitable package though.

[Balta1701]

No one is untouchable, I would definitely trade Sale for the right package of players. There are probably only 4-5 franchises in baseball that could offer a suitable package though.

I still contend that you have to assume a high bust-rate in trading for anyone who hasn't established themselves in MLB. The "Greatest system ever!" the Royals had a few years ago is a prime example of the risks in trading an established ace for guys outside of the bigs, and you see that kind of thing all the time. That's why I keep saying "Trout or the highway". Even if I'd be flexible on that...any time I see someone trying to trade a guy for a player in the minors who isn't established and proven in the big leagues yet, I say "What if he turns into Beckham and takes 3 years to develop?"

[harfman77]

I still contend that you have to assume a high bust-rate in trading for anyone who hasn't established themselves in MLB. The "Greatest system ever!" the Royals had a few years ago is a prime example of the risks in trading an established ace for guys outside of the bigs, and you see that kind of thing all the time. That's why I keep saying "Trout or the highway". Even if I'd be flexible on that...any time I see someone trying to trade a guy for a player in the minors who isn't established and proven in the big leagues yet, I say "What if he turns into Beckham and takes 3 years to develop?"

 

There is a high bust rate, especially the further the prospects are away from contributing. You would have to have a package that includes major league or near major league talent. For instance, a package from the Pirates built around Cole and Taillon or from the Cardinals that starts with Taveras, Adams, and Wong. Guys that are more easily projectable at the major league record due to ML track records or being close enough that their floor is at least a major league regular.

[thxfrthmmrs]

The point is if you are going to be bad for a long time, like the Astros, Sale pitching ffor several years in meaningless games only increases his chances of getting hurt. He has already missed starts the last 2 seasons with soreness. So the other point would be, when you are ready to win, Sale would be more expensive and perhaps not nearly as effective. If it were a guarantee he would be healthy when the Sox were ready to win, you would not trade him, but pitchers, especially him, are far more likely to acquire a devasting injury than position players.

 

Exactly my point.

 

People who think Sale is in no bigger risk to injury than any other pitcher are either in denial or they really don't think bad pitching mechanics will attribute to a higher chance of injury.

Edited June 24, 2013 by thxfrthmmrs

[Quin]

Chris Sale may be one of the few legitimately untouchable players in all of major league baseball in that no team could or would want to offer up a fair package, let alone an overpay that the Sox would be looking for.

 

Also, a lot of teams would kill to have a rotation with building blocks like Sale and Quintana. Throw in Peavy who won't need to be an ace, Danks, Santiago, and Johnson and the Sox rotation is one thing you don't touch.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Quinarvy

[caulfield12]

Chris Sale may be one of the few legitimately untouchable players in all of major league baseball in that no team could or would want to offer up a fair package, let alone an overpay that the Sox would be looking for.

 

Also, a lot of teams would kill to have a rotation with building blocks like Sale and Quintana. Throw in Peavy who won't need to be an ace, Danks, Santiago, and Johnson and the Sox rotation is one thing you don't touch.

 

 

You might be overestimating Quintana a bit.

 

We're not quite the Cardinals, A's, Giants or Braves in terms of pitching talent.

[Quin]

You might be overestimating Quintana a bit.

 

We're not quite the Cardinals, A's, Giants or Braves in terms of pitching talent.

 

It's not Quintana alone, it's Quintana paired with Sale.

[witesoxfan]

Starting pitching is definitely not a big problem moving forward. This team needs hitters though and in a bad way.

[Kyyle23]

Cano isn't talking about his contract publicly, but he has told friends that he'd like something in the neighborhood of a $275MM deal, reminiscent of Alex Rodriguez's deal. The Yankees aren't believed to be anywhere close to that, however, and at one point they suggested something closer to David Wright's eight-year, $138MM contract.

 

The second baseman is the top ranked free agent on Tim Dierkes' 2014 Free Agent Power Rankings. While he's still having a strong year, his numbers are down from his 2012 campaign in which he hit .313/.379/.550 with 33 homers.

 

 

We might want to forget about that Robinson Cano pipe dream right now.

 

If we're going to spend our way back into contention, it's going to have to be veterans coming off of down seasons, injuries, aging veterans in the Utley mold that we're gambling have 1-2 good seasons left before going completely south.

 

Along with the fact that Beckham and probably Viciedo (he will get at least one more year) are the two likeliest players right now to be around for 2014.

 

I believe that Cano pipe dream is yours and yours alone.

[iamshack]

I think I would be willing to trade almost any starting pitcher for the right package of players. It shouldn't matter if he is Chris Sale or Nolan Ryan or whomever. If you get back the right collection of talent, you move the player. This isn't basketball and this isn't a quarterback in football. I agree that you can't move him just for prospects - that's too risky. But if you got the right collection of mlb-ready talent or current mlb players, or a combination of these things with a prospect or two, I don't know why it matters if it's Chris Sale or what his contract is.

[caulfield12]

I believe that Cano pipe dream is yours and yours alone.

 

Either way, the White Sox can choose to be major players in a free agent market that is likely to include Brian McCann, Shin Soo-Choo, Curtis Granderson, Jacoby Ellsbury, Chase Utley, Kendry Morales and more.

 

Then I'll quote Jake's article from yahoo.

 

Aren't all of those players pipe dreams as well?

 

What reason do we have to believe that the White Sox will try to spend their way back into contention?

 

As (arguably) none of them will come on board and be part of a rebuilding club unless they receive assurances that we'll bring in at least two more everyday players to provide us a legit shot at competing in 2014, or, at the worst, 2015.

 

 

[The Ultimate Champion]

I think I would be willing to trade almost any starting pitcher for the right package of players. It shouldn't matter if he is Chris Sale or Nolan Ryan or whomever. If you get back the right collection of talent, you move the player. This isn't basketball and this isn't a quarterback in football. I agree that you can't move him just for prospects - that's too risky. But if you got the right collection of mlb-ready talent or current mlb players, or a combination of these things with a prospect or two, I don't know why it matters if it's Chris Sale or what his contract is.

Right.

 

That's why there's no point in discussing it.

 

Usually the type of team that tries to pry away your Sale is a contender who is trying to win right now. Usually those contenders want to add to what they have rather than dismantle themselves at the MLB level to make a deal.

 

Texas is really the only team that I can think of that would be able to offer a huge collection of MLB-ready players. They have Profar, Martin, Perez, Olt, Grimm, etc. all either at the MLB level or with MLB appearances under their belts & MLB ready. If the Rangers offer all those guys for Sale then you probably have to make that deal even though you may not get back a player who is equally as dominate as Sale is, because there's just so much value there & there is the potential to get something really special with Profar. But it would have to be a Playstation deal & there's no point in soliciting a Playstation deal.

 

You can't just shop everyone though or you're not going to get anything done. If the Sox send their scouts to go look at players they know they won't be getting because the team you're talking with is very unlikely to meet the asking price, then all you're doing is shooting yourself in the foot.

[caulfield12]

Right.

 

That's why there's no point in discussing it.

 

Usually the type of team that tries to pry away your Sale is a contender who is trying to win right now. Usually those contenders want to add to what they have rather than dismantle themselves at the MLB level to make a deal.

 

Texas is really the only team that I can think of that would be able to offer a huge collection of MLB-ready players. They have Profar, Martin, Perez, Olt, Grimm, etc. all either at the MLB level or with MLB appearances under their belts & MLB ready. If the Rangers offer all those guys for Sale then you probably have to make that deal even though you may not get back a player who is equally as dominate as Sale is, because there's just so much value there & there is the potential to get something really special with Profar. But it would have to be a Playstation deal & there's no point in soliciting a Playstation deal.

 

You can't just shop everyone though or you're not going to get anything done. If the Sox send their scouts to go look at players they know they won't be getting because the team you're talking with is very unlikely to meet the asking price, then all you're doing is shooting yourself in the foot.

 

It would be pretty surprising if the Rangers deal Profar...on one hand, they're desperate to get back into the World Series and finally win. OTOH, they have a tremendously profitable business model going now and they aren't wedded as much to a single season's results as they are putting out a team that has a CHANCE to win the World Series if everything goes right each and every year.

 

It's that kind of trade (Shields/Davis for Myers/Odorizzi) which makes more sense than trading away 4-5 prospects for one superstar, when you're risking the loss of Sale vs. Profar straight up (notwithstanding the other 3-4 players) as is a strong possibility with the future Sale injury issue.

 

The problem is that KC gave up too much and punched a hole in their future offense...which is ironically their biggest weakness now. Why they blocked Myers by signing Francouer to that extension, we'll never know (it was about as wise as the Teahen and Keppinger deals).

Edited June 24, 2013 by caulfield12

[harfman77]

It would be pretty surprising if the Rangers deal Profar...on one hand, they're desperate to get back into the World Series and finally win. OTOH, they have a tremendously profitable business model going now and they aren't wedded as much to a single season's results as they are putting out a team that has a CHANCE to win the World Series if everything goes right each and every year.

 

It's that kind of trade (Shields/Davis for Myers/Odorizzi) which makes more sense than trading away 4-5 prospects for one superstar, when you're risking the loss of Sale vs. Profar straight up (notwithstanding the other 3-4 players) as is a strong possibility with the future Sale injury issue.

 

The problem is that KC gave up too much and punched a hole in their future offense...which is ironically their biggest weakness now. Why they blocked Myers by signing Francouer to that extension, we'll never know (it was about as wise as the Teahen and Keppinger deals).

 

The Rangers problem is that they don't have a spot for Profar, and with the extension they just gave Andrus, they won't for quite some time, so holding on to him when they are trying to win now is counterproductive because his value is as high now as it ever will be as long as he is not an everyday starter. I think they will absolutely move Profar in the right deal that makes them favorites to win the World Series. They have a need for an upgrade at LF, 1B and in the rotation.

[witesoxfan]

If you trade Chris Sale, contract and all, you really need to hold out to a package similar to one the Red Sox apparently offered up for Felix a few years back...

 

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=73570

 

RHP Clay Buchholz

RHP Daniel Bard

RHP Justin Masterson

LHP Nick Hagadone

RHP Michael Bowden

LHP Felix Doubront

OF Josh Reddick

SS Yamaico Navarro

 

...was offered for Felix Hernandez. You don't need that much pitching, but you are talking about a #1 starter (Buchholz), a #2 starter (Masterson), a #3-4 starter (Doubront), a pitcher who was, at one point, capable of closing (Bard), a left handed reliever (Hagadone), a righty reliever (Bowden), a lefty power bat (Reddick), and a utility infielder (Navarro).

 

Or you could take the secondary package, which included a proven power hitter (Adrian Gonzalez), a #1 starter (Buchholz), and whatever else they'd include.

 

You always want to listen, but you have to legitimately be getting a monstrosity of a package. That package from the Cardinals might get close, but I think you would need at least one more lower level guy to get it done.

[Kyyle23]

Either way, the White Sox can choose to be major players in a free agent market that is likely to include Brian McCann, Shin Soo-Choo, Curtis Granderson, Jacoby Ellsbury, Chase Utley, Kendry Morales and more.

 

Then I'll quote Jake's article from yahoo.

 

Aren't all of those players pipe dreams as well?

 

What reason do we have to believe that the White Sox will try to spend their way back into contention?

 

As (arguably) none of them will come on board and be part of a rebuilding club unless they receive assurances that we'll bring in at least two more everyday players to provide us a legit shot at competing in 2014, or, at the worst, 2015.

 

None of those names are Cano, are they? None of them are looking for 275 million, are they? In fact, besides Ellsbury, most of that list is players that are frequently injured and could probably be had on reduced contracts(not to say Ellsbury isnt frequently injured, but he is most likely going to get a big contract).

 

Like I said, your pipe dream. Canos contract demands meet the reality of possibly 2-3 teams in the majors, The Yankees, Dodgers, and possibly the Tigers if Old Moneybags decides to complete his insane money spending spree

[caulfield12]

None of those names are Cano, are they? None of them are looking for 275 million, are they? In fact, besides Ellsbury, most of that list is players that are frequently injured and could probably be had on reduced contracts(not to say Ellsbury isnt frequently injured, but he is most likely going to get a big contract).

 

Like I said, your pipe dream. Canos contract demands meet the reality of possibly 2-3 teams in the majors, The Yankees, Dodgers, and possibly the Tigers if Old Moneybags decides to complete his insane money spending spree

 

 

And do you really expect (or believe) that we'll sign 2 or 3 of those names in the offseason?

 

Because just signing one (say, McCann) isn't enough to put us back into contention....so it would seem kind of pointless, unless they go back into "all-in" mode again, which would be a huge financial risk/gamble.

[Dunt]

I also am curious to why Quintana is being overvalued. Starting pitchers who can't go 6 innings and don't have an out pitch aren't that great.

 

If we held onto all of our starters going into '14 (yes unlikely, but for arguement's sake), Quintana is our 6th most talented starter.

 

Going to have to disagree with you. If they keep everyone, Quintana is your third best pitcher. It should be Danks, but he's been hit pretty hard this year.

[Kyyle23]

And do you really expect (or believe) that we'll sign 2 or 3 of those names in the offseason?

 

Because just signing one (say, McCann) isn't enough to put us back into contention....so it would seem kind of pointless, unless they go back into "all-in" mode again, which would be a huge financial risk/gamble.

 

Im not sure what the Sox plans are, except for not committing to Cano