If we do go on a fire sale, would you consider trading Chris Sale

[Balta1701]

And do you really expect (or believe) that we'll sign 2 or 3 of those names in the offseason?

 

Because just signing one (say, McCann) isn't enough to put us back into contention....so it would seem kind of pointless, unless they go back into "all-in" mode again, which would be a huge financial risk/gamble.

Depending on what the Sox's needs wind up being after the trade deadline and what their finances look like, yes, I expect at least 1, if not more than 1 major signing this offseason. I don't know if they'll be from your list or not because I don't know yet what we'll get back in trades. We get a 1b back then Morales stops making sense. Phegley earns the starting job by the end of August and McCann is not an option. Etc.

[caulfield12]

Going to have to disagree with you. If they keep everyone, Quintana is your third best pitcher. It should be Danks, but he's been hit pretty hard this year.

 

 

I would go with Santiago over Quintana if I had to choose which one of the two to hold on to.

[GreenSox]

I would listen on anyone, but would tend not to as I don't think the Sox will do a full-rebuild, and he's a necessary anchor to a contending club, which we will try to be in 2 years if we don't do a full rebuild.

[Dunt]

I would go with Santiago over Quintana if I had to choose which one of the two to hold on to.

 

Tough call, I think I still go Quintana. He has a better WAR, BB/9, and K/BB ratio. Sure the strikeouts numbers don't stick out as much as Hector's, but with more time in the league, I think better stuff will come. Quintana is also a year younger and an extra season away from free agency.

[witesoxfan]

I don't see Quintana lasting long. You need to have an out pitch and Quintana doesn't have anything near it. How long is his nibbling/above average control going to let him succeed? He doesn't have stamina and he seems to s*** the bed every time there is an error or a couple base runners in the 5th/6th inning. Composure is definitely an issue with him. Don't you wonder why RV never messes around pulling him?

 

For the initial question here, Tom Glavine made a career of it. Not saying that Quintana can do that, but with stuff like Quintana's, it can be done. Beyond that, he's also still very young and he can improve pretty rapidly.

 

I wouldn't put any of these guys in any particular order though. I don't trade Johnson, and I have Santiago/Quintana higher than Axelrod, but if push came to shove and I had to move one of Santiago and Quintana...I'd take the best offer I got for either of them. As of this moment, they are 3a and 3b to me.

[TaylorStSox]

Apparently 220 innings isn't enough time to judge a pitcher.

[caulfield12]

I don't know why Cano's name even came up in this thread but unless JR dies in the next few months and we get some LA type management we are not signing Cano. Basically, we are not signing Cano.

 

 

 

I don't see Quintana lasting long. You need to have an out pitch and Quintana doesn't have anything near it. How long is his nibbling/above average control going to let him succeed? He doesn't have stamina and he seems to s*** the bed every time there is an error or a couple base runners in the 5th/6th inning. Composure is definitely an issue with him. Don't you wonder why RV never messes around pulling him?

 

I've been saying this a lot but I don't worry about Danks until May-June next year. Should surgery is serious stuff. He may be able to pitch right but he is not pitching at 100 percent. It may end up being a good experience for him to learn how to throw without his best stuff. With a marginal year and his big contract he should put in a great offseason of work, refine his curveball that is progressing nicely and come back stronger in '14. You really do need 12-18 months to fully recover. Get him at 89-92 with a little more zip on his fastball and another decent pitch in his repertoire and he should be throwing 200 innings with an ERA around 4.

 

 

I would too and I would even go as far as preferring Johnson over Quintana. Johnson is obviously a wild card at this point seeing zero MLB time yet, but everything Quintana struggles with Johnson excels in. For one, his slider is a pretty solid (at least sufficient) out pitch (change coming along as well), his stamina seems to be strong along with a good frame and he has a presence out on the mound. If anyone hasn't seen Erik Johnson pitch you really should. He is a contender and fighter out there. He doesn't look scared like Quintana does that's for sure.

 

 

And Quintana was very much the opposite of that last year, he was probably the coolest/calmest pitcher on the entire team, at least for 3 months, last season.

 

The defensive mistakes and lack of offensive punch for some reason seem to have him rattled a bit this year.

Edited June 24, 2013 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/10-degrees-tr...-041914872.html

 

 

Lots of discussion of the White Sox role in the upcoming trade deadline, with commentary on Peavy/Rios/Crain/Ramirez...nothing on Dunn/Konerko/Thornton/Lindstrom in this article.

 

 

BTW, how much would anyone be willing to pay for Carl Crawford is the Dodgers heavily subsidized (not unlike the Thome situation) his deal?

We desperately need a leadoff hitter, but it's a huge risk with a speed player nearing the downside of his career soon.

 

They are going to play Puig and Kemp, so one of Ethier or Crawford has to go.

 

I doubt the White Sox would make that kind of commitment (even with a treasury of cash coming our way), but anything is possible as they desperately need to change the chemistry and composition of the entire line-up.

 

One big problem with Crawford would be the fact that unless Viciedo is moved to 1B/DH or traded, you'd have to play him in CF...with that severely limited arm.

Edited June 24, 2013 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

That's a bogus argument. The Braves were my favorite team other than the Sox growing up and I watched a lot of Tom Glavine when the Braves were still on TBS. Tom Glavine's circle change was so good he basically pushed the pitch into the mainstream of baseball. His change up was an out pitch. Give me one pitch that Quintana throws that even slightly rivals Glavine's change. You can't. Not to mention Glavine (and Maddux FWIW) got every call on the corners.

 

Sure he's young and has good control but that doesn't make him a better option than Santiago or Johnson in my mind. I don't necessarily dislike Quintana, but he is lacking in important areas. If we had to move a starter other than Peavy, Quintana would be the first one on my wish list.

 

I don't like to bag on our guys (besides Flowers) but I am being realistic here. How sustainable is his success?

I think Quintana's success is very sustainable. The Quintana last year was fastball-dominant, absolutely. He got by on guile and nibbling and did so in an impressive way. He's building some much more impressive offspeed stuff this year. He's thrown both his curve and his changeup more times this year than he did all of last season according to PFX data, and it also thinks hes incorporating a 2-seamer (which I think is the case also based on press reports). As a result, his fastball has become much more effective this year as well, giving up fewer hits, runs, and generating more strikeouts. We called him up at what, 21 last year? It shouldn't be surprising that he's taking his time developing his offspeed repertoire, and he's really grown a lot with how he uses it this year.

 

Right now I think he's still struggling some with conditioning, which might well be expected considering the innings jumps. You can see that in how he starts getting hit the 3rd time through the order with some regularity.

 

Given time, he's improving on having out pitches and improving on conditioning. There is a really good starting pitcher growing up before our eyes.

[witesoxfan]

That's a bogus argument. The Braves were my favorite team other than the Sox growing up and I watched a lot of Tom Glavine when the Braves were still on TBS. Tom Glavine's circle change was so good he basically pushed the pitch into the mainstream of baseball. His change up was an out pitch. Give me one pitch that Quintana throws that even slightly rivals Glavine's change. You can't. Not to mention Glavine (and Maddux FWIW) got every call on the corners.

 

Sure he's young and has good control but that doesn't make him a better option than Santiago or Johnson in my mind. I don't necessarily dislike Quintana, but he is lacking in important areas. If we had to move a starter other than Peavy, Quintana would be the first one on my wish list.

 

I don't like to bag on our guys (besides Flowers) but I am being realistic here. How sustainable is his success?

 

His out pitch is his fastball. He uses it a little more than half the time (55%), and then plays off of it with a curve (22%), his cutter (15%), and his changeup (8%). He uses the three secondary pitches enough that you have to be anticipating them and then he gets you with the fastball.

 

I'm not saying he will ever be a Cy Young type of pitcher, but to me, he and Santiago are pretty interchangeable. Obviously very different pitchers, but I think given a full season they put up similar numbers.

[Balta1701]

He was 23 last year.

 

It's very easy to have an ERA as low as his when RV has to pull him in the 6th/7th inning every time someone gets on base. Quintana has gone 7 innings or more twice all year. TWICE.

 

Again, I am rooting for him and him pitching like he has as young as he is is encouraging. I don't want my argument to turn into making a case against Quintana because this conversation started with me preferring Hector/EJ over Quintana in the long run. Who do you prefer Balta?

You know, I really don't know. I put them at about the same level right now based on what I've seen from them. Each of them currently has some flaws but both of them will improve on those if they're given the chance to grow up as major league starters. Santiago needs control, Quintana needs to develop offspeed stuff and reliability. Both of them need innings.

[Dunt]

Why would you think better stuff will come with time? There is no plausible reason for you to think so.

 

I think being around other professionals helps many pitchers develop new pitches. Why do you think he has hit his ceiling?

 

[harfman77]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/10-degrees-tr...-041914872.html

 

 

Lots of discussion of the White Sox role in the upcoming trade deadline, with commentary on Peavy/Rios/Crain/Ramirez...nothing on Dunn/Konerko/Thornton/Lindstrom in this article.

 

 

BTW, how much would anyone be willing to pay for Carl Crawford is the Dodgers heavily subsidized (not unlike the Thome situation) his deal?

We desperately need a leadoff hitter, but it's a huge risk with a speed player nearing the downside of his career soon.

 

They are going to play Puig and Kemp, so one of Ethier or Crawford has to go.

 

I doubt the White Sox would make that kind of commitment (even with a treasury of cash coming our way), but anything is possible as they desperately need to change the chemistry and composition of the entire line-up.

 

One big problem with Crawford would be the fact that unless Viciedo is moved to 1B/DH or traded, you'd have to play him in CF...with that severely limited arm.

 

 

No way I would touch Crawford, I just don't believe he would fit in USC. Would much rather have Ethier at a subsidized rate as his power would play much better. He would be a serviceable replacement if Rios is moved as well.

[witesoxfan]

How do those percentages/ratios compare to other pitchers? Are you sure those tendencies prove anything that would bode will for him here onward? I don't mean this with any condescending angle but I don't see how these numbers comes into play.

 

You didn't say a Cy Young pitcher but you did try to compare him to Tom Glavine. Who could very well end up in HOF next year...

 

I don't think they are interchangeable. I think Quintana may be the safer pick but Santiago is more dynamic and has better upside. Quintana gives up a lot more flyballs, strikes out a lot less guys, lacks composure, lacks the stuff Hector has, lacks the velocity Hector has and Quintana has been given time to grow under Coop while Hector has not been given the same stability/learning experience.

 

Aside from all of this, Hector has basically aborted his screwball this year. If he could implement that into his game again it could be a huge factor moving forward. Santiago has basically dominated RH bats and had trouble with LH bats. I think being a LHP struggling against LH bats at the moment only leaves room for improvement. It's a lot easier to teach/train a pitcher to retire hitters that bat with their pitching arm rather than the other way around.

 

I didn't compare him to Tom Glavine, I compared the idea of two pitchers living on the outside corner for his entire career, and I even qualified that "comparison" by stating that Quintana might not be able to make a career of it, just merely saying that it can be done. If you have good enough command of your pitches, you can do it. He's not as good as Tom Glavine and I didn't feel the need to clarify such a silly thought.

 

And, right now, the pitchers he reminds me of are John Danks and Mark Buehrle. It's coincidental that both pitched as long as they did for the Sox, but I don't think it's unfair.

 

Buehrle - 50% fastballs, 20% cutters, 20% curveballs, 10% changeups

Danks - 50% fastballs, 20% cutters, 20% changeups, 10% curveballs

 

These vary from year to year, but these show their most preferred pitches and it shows that some of Cooper's methodology.

 

Very fair assessment. Not that we are in a position to choose between the two, I think with the state of the organization, you go with Hector just for his upside alone.

 

I don't think you give up on either one of them. If you can get good value in a trade for one of them, I think you make the trade. I think they are equally as likely to fail as they are to break through. I would say that the best thing to do would be to get them as many starts as possibly between now and the end of the year. If that means using a 6-man rotation, then use a 6-man rotation.

[kitekrazy]

I think this board has reiterated the fact that Ethier is a platoon player enough. I want nothing to do with Ethier.

 

Unfortunately this organization likes to gamble on those players to satisfy their "lightening in a bottle" epidemic.

 

[witesoxfan]

Unfortunately this organization likes to gamble on those players to satisfy their "lightening in a bottle" epidemic.

 

If LA kicks in about $10 mill a year, then I think you might see a chance. The idea of the Sox taking on Ethier is just not likely whatsoever.

[caulfield12]

If LA kicks in about $10 mill a year, then I think you might see a chance. The idea of the Sox taking on Ethier is just not likely whatsoever.

 

 

That's where you wonder if KW would have been able to resist the allure of the magical favorite Hawk/Williams guy, like a Crawford or Carlos Gomez or Alex Cintron or Griffey, Jr., or Alomar, whatever the name is and whatever the point in his career.

 

It's like Moby Dick sometimes. Seems like Hahn is more risk-averse, so far, but we can't know for sure for another couple of seasons. Maybe his hands are simply tied more than we even know at the moment.

 

But I have no doubt, were KW in that chair, he'd be thinking hard about bringing Carl Crawford over and positing him as the 2014 version of Scotty Pods to change the line-up and flip it over. Or BJ Upton, in the Alex Rios tradition (although that contract's even crazy, but similar for the times they were signed).

Edited June 25, 2013 by caulfield12