6/24 Games

[caulfield12]

Stop making things up. Who has said that?

 

And no one has answered because it's a totally irrelevant question.

 

Kershaw was a pitcher.

 

 

It's irrelevant that the White Sox are the only team in the last decade, that has taken a high school player, a position prospect...and we're not even talking a TOP TEN pick, but a mid first rounder and pushed him to High A in the same season he was drafted and also placed him in High A to start the following season?

 

How is that irrelevant? They're treating him in a way that no player has ever been treated before, and we should be 100% surprised by the results?

 

There has to be SOME reason why NO OTHER TEAM has ever taken this same approach.

[balfanman]

How about Bryce Harper, what was his progression?

[caulfield12]

How about Bryce Harper, what was his progression?

 

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/pro...?P=bryce-harper

 

He was in Hagerstown (SAL) for 258 at-bats in the year after he was drafted.

 

The SAL is a much easier league than the Carolina League.

 

 

 

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/pro...p?P=Ken-Griffey

 

Okay, lol, I found ONE.

And he played at Bellingham (short season) and wasn't promoted to A and then High A the year he was drafted.

Edited June 25, 2013 by caulfield12

[Chicago White Sox]

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20...lb&c_id=mlb

 

CHICAGO -- Before Courtney Hawkins suffered a left rotator cuff strain diving for a fly ball with Class A Winston-Salem earlier this season, which sidelined him for much of May, the universally-recognized top White Sox prospect was struggling.

 

Not struggling, as in fighting through a five-game hitless streak, but more along the lines of 45 strikeouts in 77 April at-bats and a .182 average. That funk came on the heels of Hawkins' impressive debut, where the 13th overall pick in the 2012 First-Year Player Draft posted a .284 average with eight homers, 15 doubles, 11 stolen bases and 33 RBIs between abbreviated stops at rookie-level Bristol, Class A Kannapolis and Winston-Salem shortly after he was picked out of high school.

 

They are still the kind of current offensive issues that might infuse a few doubts where a can't-miss, five-tool prospect once stood. Those doubts never made their way to the White Sox organization.

 

In fact, facing struggles at the Minor League level hopefully ends up becoming a positive for these Major League-bound young players.

 

"That makes all the sense in the world," said White Sox hitting coach Jeff Manto, who previously served as the organization's Minor League hitting coordinator. "If you are as high of a pick as some of these guys were, expectations are high. And to learn, 'Hey, man, you are good, but guess what? There's another side to this too,' it's a good thing."

 

"As the guy develops on a straight arrow rocketing through the Minors to the big leagues and the first time he ever encounters failure going back to high school, Little League, is at the Major League level, that can be a lot harder to bounce out of," White Sox general manager Rick Hahn said. "It might sound a little silly, but we do think that there is something to this."

 

Players such as Hawkins and fellow top White Sox prospects Trayce Thompson and Jared Mitchell -- who have gone through their own set of '13 struggles -- joined the White Sox with very few blemishes in any sport they chose to play at any level of competition. Once reaching the professional level, the game of adjustments begins.

 

Adjustments include everything from handling better competition to the rigors of constant travel. Add on being away from home while the nascent stages of your career are laid open for everyone to see, and the struggles can be painful for a 19- or 20-year-old.

 

Painful, but a necessary evil.

 

"Watching anyone struggle is never a good thing, but you learn more in failure then you do in success," said White Sox pitcher Jake Peavy, who cruised through parts of four years in the Minors before reaching the Padres in 2002. "You find out what you got and what kind of person you got and if he'll be able to fight through adversity and become better, or if he's going to kind of mail it in and roll over."

 

"My experience is that these kids are homesick," Manto said. "You are 18 or 19 years old and you are away from home for the first time. And when you are struggling, you used to talk to your father or your athletic director or your coach. Now you are on a bus for six hours talking to a complete stranger. And he's struggling, too. He doesn't want to hear it. You have all this internal stuff you have to deal with. It's definitely going to break you down a little bit."

 

Gordon Beckham understands the process.

 

The White Sox took Beckham with the eighth pick overall in the 2008 First-Year Player Draft; he reached the Majors on June 4, 2009, as a third baseman and earned two Rookie of the Year awards as voted on by his peers. Lofty expectations were set, while comparisons to Michael Young began after just 378 at-bats, before high-profile struggles for a can't-miss prospect who already had arrived took over.

 

Beckham believes that first bout with failure is tough to deal with at any level. In the Minors, the pressure is to reach the Majors as quickly as possible. At the big league level, it's to help the team win a championship while playing in front of a home crowd not accepting of consistent failure. That latter pressure combination caused Beckham to lose confidence.

 

"I doubted if I had what it took to play up here," said Beckham, who enters Tuesday's series opener with the Mets hitting .307. "But it's something that I had get over with my faith and just mentally and physically get better. I feel like I've done that, even though I've been hurt. At the end of last year, I felt like I turned a corner.

 

"The more struggles they have down there, the more they will be understanding of how it's going to go sometimes. That was the hardest part for me. I never struggled, and I'm up here in the big leagues and everyone is like, 'Why isn't he hitting?' You got to at some point figure out how to get over it."

 

Hawkins has knocked out 13 homers in 153 at-bats, but he also has dipped into a recent 3-for-40 slump over his last 10 games for the Dash. There's plenty of time for the 19-year-old to fight his way through, and while nobody ever looks for failure, it ultimately might be a better teaching tool than uninterrupted greatness.

 

"Coaches tell you it's going to be OK, and they truly mean it," Manto said. "As a player, you hear this and you think, 'It's not going to be OK. I didn't get a hit.' I'm sure they will learn quick."

 

"Learning how to cope with the failure and how to recover and respond and come back even better, that's part of the Minor League development," Hahn said. "These are setbacks. They are unfortunate, but in some element, it's OK that this is happening at the Minor League level and part of ultimately making them better Major Leaguers."

[fathom]

Hearing anyone that's been involved with the Sox organization the last 10 years talk about developing young hitters as if they have any clue is very frustrating.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

I love that you continue to push the fallacy that he was rushed to Winston Salem last year.

 

And Addison Russell, who is 2 months younger than Hawkins, is also in the Carolina league this year. But continue pretending this is a once in a lifetime situation.

[caulfield12]

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20...lb&c_id=mlb

 

 

I'm not sure Buddy Bell and Jeff Manto are the foremost experts on developing position prospects OR hitters in general.

 

Obviously, this approach hasn't worked very well with Mitchell and Walker. The one they were the MOST patient with, Trayce Thompson, is showing the best overall results of all four of those guys, even though he was lowest draft pick of that group.

 

 

By the way, Frank Thomas would be another comparison to Hawkins (as he made it up to Sarasota his first half season, then started in BIRM the next), except he was an All-American collegiate player, not a raw high schooler.

 

 

 

Do they have an example of a player that they've pushed in this way and it's turned out well?

Definitely not Beckham, not Morel, for example. Seemingly not Mitchell or Walker, so far. Hawkins is struggling now, obviously.

Edited June 25, 2013 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

I love that you continue to push the fallacy that he was rushed to Winston Salem last year.

 

And Addison Russell, who is 2 months younger than Hawkins, is also in the Carolina league this year. But continue pretending this is a once in a lifetime situation.

 

 

And yet Bryce Harper, the most hyped prospect in recent memory, didn't get pushed in this way, did he?

 

 

[ChiSox_Sonix]

And yet Bryce Harper, the most hyped prospect in recent memory, didn't get pushed in this way, did he?

 

WHO. THE. f***. CARES?

 

Why is Bryce Harper even in this discussion? Jesus Christ. Stop with the random player tangents.

 

We're not talking about Bryce Harper. Or Mike Trout. Or Frank Thomas. Or Ken Griffey Jr. So why the hell are they being brought up? Man you're frustrating.

[Balta1701]

And yet Bryce Harper, the most hyped prospect in recent memory, didn't get pushed in this way, did he?

No, he was pushed even harder. He was in AA after only 1/2 a season in A ball and in AAA after the next 1/2 season.

[southsider2k5]

And yet Bryce Harper, the most hyped prospect in recent memory, didn't get pushed in this way, did he?

 

With your arbitrary lines in the sand, sure. In reality, both (Harper and Trout) were in the majors well before they could drink, which dwarfs being in High A at 19, in terms of getting "pushed".

[caulfield12]

I love that you continue to push the fallacy that he was rushed to Winston Salem last year.

 

And Addison Russell, who is 2 months younger than Hawkins, is also in the Carolina league this year. But continue pretending this is a once in a lifetime situation.

 

 

Russell wasn't pushed all the way up to High A his first season, and the level of competition at Pace High School in Florida is 5X great than anything Hawkins experienced in Texas. He (Hawkins) didn't even play full-time until his sophomore season.

 

So I'll give you points for finding one example, and a player who wasn't even in the Top 10, for extra bonus points.

 

Keep in mind, he hit .369 last year.

 

That's a little bit different than Hawkins' results, although they were impressive for his age, to put up an 800 OPS overall and only strike out 25% of the time, roughly.

Edited June 25, 2013 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

With your arbitrary lines in the sand, sure. In reality, both (Harper and Trout) were in the majors well before they could drink, which dwarfs being in High A at 19, in terms of getting "pushed".

 

And yet this "Sox System" that we're supposed to believe based on blind faith alone has produced what positive result with position prospects that we can rally around and say, yeah, they really do have a clue what they're doing?

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Russell wasn't pushed all the way up to High A his first season, and the level of competition at Pace High School in Florida is 5X great than anything Hawkins experienced in Texas. He (Hawkins) didn't even play full-time until his sophomore season.

 

So I'll give you points for finding one example, and a player who wasn't even in the Top 10, for extra bonus points.

 

Keep in mind, he hit .369 last year.

 

That's a little bit different than Hawkins' results, although they were impressive for his age, to put up an 800 OPS overall and only strike out 25% of the time, roughly.

 

Hawkins played 5 games there. Plus their playoffs since Kanny's season ended. Let's stop pretending it was anything significant. They were drafted back to back, both had success in A ball the year they were drafted and both were started in High A the following year. Pretty comparable.

[caulfield12]

WHO. THE. f***. CARES?

 

Why is Bryce Harper even in this discussion? Jesus Christ. Stop with the random player tangents.

 

We're not talking about Bryce Harper. Or Mike Trout. Or Frank Thomas. Or Ken Griffey Jr. So why the hell are they being brought up? Man you're frustrating.

 

 

Then why ever make comparisons at all?

 

What's the point, if every fingerprint and grain of sand is different, if every situation is unique and individual?

[caulfield12]

No, he was pushed even harder. He was in AA after only 1/2 a season in A ball and in AAA after the next 1/2 season.

 

 

And where was he drafted?

 

Where was Hawkins drafted in the first round?

 

Slightly different expectations.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

And yet this "Sox System" that we're supposed to believe based on blind faith alone has produced what positive result with position prospects that we can rally around and say, yeah, they really do have a clue what they're doing?

 

This is the first guy they have done this to I thought?

[caulfield12]

This is the first guy they have done this to I thought?

 

 

So they changed their philosophy to "rush and challenge" players as a result of what, exactly?

 

 

How did they NOT rush Beckham in a similar way, except for his higher draft spot and Collegiate All-American status which put him on an even faster track?

 

It doesn't seem to be working too well with Carlos Sanchez, either.

 

A year ago, everyone was talking about him....not he's disappeared or is like a super-utility/Escobar-esque prospect in less than a year.

Edited June 25, 2013 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

And where was he drafted?

 

Where was Hawkins drafted in the first round?

 

Slightly different expectations.

So your entire point of comparing randomly to harper falls apart and your response is "oh this time it's different". If I go back, who do you think brought it up?

[caulfield12]

So your entire point of comparing randomly to harper falls apart and your response is "oh this time it's different". If I go back, who do you think brought it up?

 

It didn't fall apart because he didn't meet the conditions anyway. You're already extrapolating things that happened with Harper (being promoted from Low A to AA) on a time-frame that Hawkins hasn't even had a chance to reach yet.

 

 

And you're leaving out another main point with Harper that he played at the University of Southern Nevada for one season.

 

So far there's ONE example, and yet he was a player who clearly dominated his league, hitting .369.

 

Yay.

Edited June 25, 2013 by caulfield12

[southsider2k5]

So they changed their philosophy to "rush and challenge" players as a result of what, exactly?

 

 

How did they NOT rush Beckham in a similar way, except for his higher draft spot and Collegiate All-American status which put him on an even faster track?

 

It doesn't seem to be working too well with Carlos Sanchez, either.

 

A year ago, everyone was talking about him....not he's disappeared or is like a super-utility/Escobar-esque prospect in less than a year.

 

Are you moving the goalposts again?

[caulfield12]

Are you moving the goalposts again?

 

 

To produce an All-Star level position player should be the goal of any system, to do that at least ONCE per decade, lol.

 

Or does Chris Young qualify?

 

 

 

And it has all led to this: at age 15, most scouts and baseball experts have Bryce ranked as one of the best players in the country, if not the best.

 

As a 12-year-old, Travelball-select.com – a Web site that ranks 12- to 14-year-old ballplayers – tabbed Bryce as the best player in the nation. Same honor when he was 14.

 

Four years from his first opportunity at the Major League Baseball draft, Bryce has his eyes on the top.

 

“I remember I was in fifth grade, my counselor came in and said, “What do you want to do?’” Bryce said. “I said I wanted to be a pro baseball player, and she said, ‘No, really.’ I get that all the time, and it pisses me off.

 

“I’m going to be a pro baseball player.”

 

Courtney Hawkins was playing football more than baseball until at least his age 16 (sophomore) season of high school baseball.

Edited June 25, 2013 by caulfield12

[Dunt]

Guys, stop it! Can't you see Courtney Hawkins is tearing us apart?!?!

[PolishPrince34]

And yet STILL, nobody answered the question.

 

What other position prospect, drafted in let's say the last decade out of high school, was pushed to High A that same year he was drafted and then started out the following season in High A???

 

Why can nobody answer that question, if it happens so frequently?

Addison Russell

[caulfield12]

Addison Russell

 

 

Yes, we've come up with one name so far.

 

A kid who hit .369 in the minors last year and played at a much better high school program with more competition than Courtney Hawkins faced in Carroll, Texas.