NBA Thread 2013-2014

[Kyyle23]

Ok Badger, I know you dont like one of the best coaches in the league.

[Chisoxfn]

Bucks offered Korver $20M. Wonder if he still lands with the Nets?

[Kyyle23]

Bucks offered Korver $20M. Wonder if he still lands with the Nets?

 

WHoa LOL. I will take Dunleavy TYVM

[Chisoxfn]

I guess the Nets are out. Bucks offering 3yrs / 20 M. That is a lot of coin for Korver.

[Soxbadger]

Ok Badger, I know you dont like one of the best coaches in the league.

 

And this is why I dont post in this thread. I may be wrong, I may be right, but at least I bring evidence and logic when I make an argument.

 

You say Thibs is one of the best coaches in the league, I say that may or may not be true. Do I think Mike Brown is one of the best coaches ever? No, and hes been to more finals.

 

So at a certain point you have to take off the "Rose" (pun intended) colored glasses and objectively look at the facts.

 

Thibs has coached 34 playoff games, the Bulls are under .500 in those games. In the regular season the Bulls have regressed every year 62 wins, 50 wins, 45 wins.

 

Now you say:

 

"But Badger the Bulls werent healthy"

 

and the response is:

 

From the beginning I have said that a taskmaster style coach will wear players down.

 

So like it, hate it, whatever, but Thibs is no where near the level of a guy like Popovich. In 17 years the Spurs have never had a 3 year decline like the Bulls. In fact (discounting the shortened season) Pop's team has only 1 time ever not won more than 50 games. And the greatest decline in the 17 years he coached was 13 games (from 63 at a high to 50 at a low in his career).

 

In comparison Thibs has coached 3 years and has a 17 game decline.

 

So we can make excuses all we want, or we can sit down and ask some hard questions:

 

Why is a team that seemingly had a very solid core 3 years ago, declining?

 

And the answer is:

 

The best players keep getting injured.

 

Its not about the bench, its not about the draft, its about not running your horse into the ground before the Kentucky Derby.

[Kyyle23]

k

[Steve9347]

Thibs has coached 34 playoff games, the Bulls are under .500 in those games. In the regular season the Bulls have regressed every year 62 wins, 50 wins, 45 wins.

It's hard to get to 62 wins when you only play 66 games.

 

However, winning 50 games in 66 contests equates to the exact same pace of 62/82.

 

So actually, the only year the Bulls "regressed" was when their by far best player did not play once. But hey, you only "bring evidence and logic" when you make an argument.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Steve9347

[Soxbadger]

Its so frustrating to discuss this. I guess I just dont see why Bulls fans wouldnt want Thibs to critically look at his coaching style and perhaps tweak his regular season use of players.

 

I dont know, where I come from we dont lose and then say "Well were still the best", because scoreboard matters and excuses really dont. So I just think after 3 years of decline, its time to ask, what can be changed to make the Bulls competitive for a title.

 

And while I agree that the Bulls should be more aggressive, take risks, etc. The problem is, none of those risks mean anything if Rose/Noah cant play. So the primary focus really should be:

 

How can we make sure that Rose/Noah are 100% for the playoffs...

 

 

[ZoomSlowik]

What is Russell Westbrook then? Lower career FG% and AST/TO ratio of under 2 which is horrendous even with a top 2 player in the game on his team. Isn't he considered elite? Jrue is 23 years old and will only get better with more time under his belt

 

Difficult to be efficient when the you are on a team where Thaddeus Young is your second best player. Have we already forgotten the Sixers being a game 7 away from ECF led by Holiday? Now he has Eric Gordon (if not traded) and Ryan Anderson on the wings and some guy named Anthony Davis to practice alley oops with

 

Westbrook generates significantly more offense. He's exponentially better on the drive, which is why he's put up 22-23 a game the last 3 years. He gets to the line a ton, something Jrue doesn't do. His TS% has gotten better over his career (sub-50 his first two years, 53%-plus the last three) while Holiday's has gotten worse (started at 52.5 his first two years, below 50 the last two). Oh, and Westbrook is only about a year and a half older than Holiday.

 

You're also conveniently ignoring that they had Andre Iguodala for his first 3 years. He was the best player on the team when they lucked into the second round after Derrick Rose's injury. They only won at about a 44 game pace that year and only won 34 last year after Iguodala left.

 

On a good team, he's a guy that gets you 14 to 15 points a game on mediocre efficiency. That's not worth Nerlens Noel and another lottery pick. New Orleans is still very likely to be a non-playoff team, their defense is very weak. Anthony Davis is extremely talented, but Ryan Anderson does very little outside of hit 3's and Eric Gordon is always hurt. Plus the West is a lot tougher.

Edited July 3, 2013 by ZoomSlowik

[Soxbadger]

It's hard to get to 62 wins when you only play 66 games.

 

However, winning 50 games in 66 contests equates to the exact same pace of 62/82.

 

So actually, the only year the Bulls "regressed" was when their by far best player did not play once. But hey, you only "bring evidence and logic" when you make an argument.

 

So you agree that in 3 years they went from 62 to 45, you just are semantically arguing that year 2 technically isnt a regression, but then you dont even talk about the fact that the "62 win team" in year 2 was bounced in the first round...

 

Guess if you consider going from EC Finals to out in round 1 staying the same, well you sir have me.

[Chisoxfn]

Its so frustrating to discuss this. I guess I just dont see why Bulls fans wouldnt want Thibs to critically look at his coaching style and perhaps tweak his regular season use of players.

 

I dont know, where I come from we dont lose and then say "Well were still the best", because scoreboard matters and excuses really dont. So I just think after 3 years of decline, its time to ask, what can be changed to make the Bulls competitive for a title.

 

And while I agree that the Bulls should be more aggressive, take risks, etc. The problem is, none of those risks mean anything if Rose/Noah cant play. So the primary focus really should be:

 

How can we make sure that Rose/Noah are 100% for the playoffs...

I don't agree with you that Thibbs isn't an elite coach but I do think you have valid points and Thibbs has to learn to ease up on the minutes of his guys.

[Soxbadger]

I don't agree with you that Thibbs isn't an elite coach but I do think you have valid points and Thibbs has to learn to ease up on the minutes of his guys.

 

Im not saying Thibbs isnt an elite coach.

 

Im saying that if he cant get his best horse to the race, we will never know.

 

I hope that he wins 10 championships and shows the world that he is the best coach ever. The problem is, even Phil wouldnt have won 6 championships with the Bulls if Jordan/Pippen were consistently out in the playoffs.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Soxbadger

[Jenksismyhero]

Nor is there any evidence that the injuries suffered by the players are due to being over worked. That's just a convenient talk-radio type of conclusion. Rose's ACL could have given out in practice. Deng's wrist/hand injuries came from being hit in a flukey way (and made worse by his refusal to get it fixed operatively). Noah's planter faciitis may or may not be related, but I sincerely doubt it. The man runs for a living so if he's predisposed to that problem it would have popped up eventually.

[Jake]

Derrick has never been a guy to get an obscene amount of minutes, so I don't know how he is the shining example of Thibs overuse. He sits out nearly a quarter per game.

 

Also, he was seen "limping" in LA. I don't know if that's a limp at all, and a commenter says it looks like it's the other leg. Surprised it hasn't been mentioned in here, though.

[witesoxfan]

So you agree that in 3 years they went from 62 to 45, you just are semantically arguing that year 2 technically isnt a regression, but then you dont even talk about the fact that the "62 win team" in year 2 was bounced in the first round...

 

Guess if you consider going from EC Finals to out in round 1 staying the same, well you sir have me.

 

BECAUSE THEIR f***ING BEST PLAYER TORE HIS ACL

[Steve9347]

So you agree that in 3 years they went from 62 to 45, you just are semantically arguing that year 2 technically isnt a regression, but then you dont even talk about the fact that the "62 win team" in year 2 was bounced in the first round...

 

Guess if you consider going from EC Finals to out in round 1 staying the same, well you sir have me.

Well, I mean, this is stupid. It's not a semantic argument to point out that the winning percentages were nearly identical. Teams tend to get bounced in the first round when their best player's knee explodes. That same player missed all of the next season.

 

To ignore a 23 year old MVP not playing is just plain asinine.

 

I know "winning" an argument with you is something that is futile to try (ie - you EVER saying, oh damn, I didn't even think that it was a 66 game season), so I will stop.

[Soxbadger]

Points up

 

This is what Im talking about. If you guys just want to believe that everything will turn out for the best and that there are absolutely no concerns, go for it.

 

Nor is there any evidence that the injuries suffered by the players are due to being over worked.

 

And there is no evidence to prove that if Rose had sat more he wouldnt have torn his ACL.

 

The fact is, why not use caution? Why not lose 1-5 more games in the regular season to give your guys the best chance to get healthy?

 

Maybe Rose still tears his acl, maybe Noah still gets hurt. But at least that way you set yourself up for the best chance to succeed.

 

But hey, if you guys are fine with a bunch of regular season titles, thats your call.

[Steve9347]

Derrick has never been a guy to get an obscene amount of minutes, so I don't know how he is the shining example of Thibs overuse. He sits out nearly a quarter per game.

 

Also, he was seen "limping" in LA. I don't know if that's a limp at all, and a commenter says it looks like it's the other leg. Surprised it hasn't been mentioned in here, though.

LOL. That could just be his thug walk.

[Soxbadger]

Well, I mean, this is stupid. It's not a semantic argument to point out that the winning percentages were nearly identical. Teams tend to get bounced in the first round when their best player's knee explodes. That same player missed all of the next season.

 

To ignore a 23 year old MVP not playing is just plain asinine.

 

I know "winning" an argument with you is something that is futile to try (ie - you EVER saying, oh damn, I didn't even think that it was a 66 game season), so I will stop.

 

No because its a circular argument.

 

My argument:

 

Bulls starters are getting injured at a high pace, it may be because of use in regular season, should limit regular season usage.

 

Your argument:

 

The Bulls didnt win because Rose was hurt.

 

Well no s***, thats the entire point of my argument. That you go out of your way to make sure your MVP at 23 doesnt tear his ACL.

 

The problem is that you have 2 different opinions:

 

1) Minutes dont matter, playing through injuries dont matter, a player getting hurt is just completely random.

 

2) Minutes do matter, resting players does matter, a player getting hurt could be random, but there are ways to try and prevent it, including restricting minutes of players who are coming off of injury.

 

I actually dont care if you want to believe 1. It really doesnt matter to me. I think its illogical, but so what, you are entitled to your opinion.

[Jake]

Doctor: overuse has nothing to do with ACL tears

 

“In fact, I think if you’re tired, you’re a lot less likely to tear your ACL because you’re not going to be as explosive,” said Altchek, who has operated on players such as Josh Howard, David West and Purdue’s Robbie Hummel, and been a consultant for the NBA.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Jake

[Steve9347]

No because its a circular argument.

 

My argument:

 

Bulls starters are getting injured at a high pace, it may be because of use in regular season, should limit regular season usage.

 

Your argument:

 

The Bulls didnt win because Rose was hurt.

 

Well no s***, thats the entire point of my argument. That you go out of your way to make sure your MVP at 23 doesnt tear his ACL.

 

The problem is that you have 2 different opinions:

 

1) Minutes dont matter, playing through injuries dont matter, a player getting hurt is just completely random.

 

2) Minutes do matter, resting players does matter, a player getting hurt could be random, but there are ways to try and prevent it, including restricting minutes of players who are coming off of injury.

 

I actually dont care if you want to believe 1. It really doesnt matter to me. I think its illogical, but so what, you are entitled to your opinion.

Well, actually your argument was that they regressed every year since they won 62 games, which completely ignored the fact that they only played 66 games the following year. Since you say you are all about evidence, show me the evidence that Bulls players get hurt any more than players from other teams. Derrick Rose played 35 mpg in 2011/2012. Did Thibs play him too much?

[Soxbadger]

Doctor: overuse has nothing to do with ACL tears

 

“In fact, I think if you’re tired, you’re a lot less likely to tear your ACL because you’re not going to be as explosive,” said Altchek, who has operated on players such as Josh Howard, David West and Purdue’s Robbie Hummel, and been a consultant for the NBA.

 

http://www.healio.com/hematology-oncology/...tested-approved

 

You do know that different doctors have different opinions right?

 

And once again you are missing the point.

 

If just Rose was injured 1 time, you chalk it up to "s*** happens".

 

But what about the fact that almost every Bulls starter has pretty much had injury issues the last 2 years?

 

I guess its just all bad luck.

 

womp womp

[Steve9347]

Doctor: overuse has nothing to do with ACL tears

 

“In fact, I think if you’re tired, you’re a lot less likely to tear your ACL because you’re not going to be as explosive,” said Altchek, who has operated on players such as Josh Howard, David West and Purdue’s Robbie Hummel, and been a consultant for the NBA.

badger autobot will say that this means nothing, and the only thing that matters is his hard evidence that thibs plays rose too much (which is actually quite false).

 

That argument works for Deng, and certainly for 12/13 Noah whose demise to injury was quite predictable. It does not work with Rose.

 

Also, the Bulls did not get worse from 10/11 to 11/12.

[ZoomSlowik]

Personally, I think it's more about throwing guys out there for large minutes when they're already nursing injuries. A lot of star players play huge minutes. Even Steph Curry played 78 games at 38 a night this year plus playoffs, and his ankles are held together with duct tape.

 

The Bulls don't seem to pull back a bit when guys get banged up though. Derrick was banged up for most of 2012 and was still playing 35+ when he got back (some of them in the regular season), Deng's been playing through his wrist for a couple of years and they seem to keep playing Noah until he can't walk.

 

I have no idea if those injuries occur because they play too many minutes. However, I don't think it's a good idea to have guys play through it with so much regularity and with so high of a work load. I don't think it would hurt for them to give their key players a game or two off occasionally when they're banged up, and just maybe they avoid one or two injuries that knock guys out for several weeks.

[Steve9347]

http://www.healio.com/hematology-oncology/...tested-approved

 

You do know that different doctors have different opinions right?

 

And once again you are missing the point.

 

If just Rose was injured 1 time, you chalk it up to "s*** happens".

 

But what about the fact that almost every Bulls starter has pretty much had injury issues the last 2 years?

 

I guess its just all bad luck.

 

womp womp

Ha. A link to cigarettes. You are the worst on message boards. I know you do it to troll, though. Everyone, stop feeding the troll!