NBA Thread 2013-2014

[Quin]

Conspiracy Time:

 

Rose was listed as DND, not Inactive on today's boxscore. Shengalia was listed as Inactive.

[Willard Decker]

No doubt about it. Like in 2003. If T-mac had tried more, he would've averaged 35 ppg and a 32 per instead of 32 ppg and a 30 per. T-mac had a higher per than Kobe from 2001 to 2005. In 35 playoff games from '01 to '08, he averaged 29.5 ppg, 7 rpg, 6.5 apg, 1.4 spg, 1.1 bpg. But he could've done more! No. His body is what did him in, not a lack of work ethic. T-mac was as cut, fit, trim as anybody of that time and he played an insane amount of minutes. You can' play the minutes he did at that level if you're work ethic sucks.

 

I'd be interested in knowing how you intend to verify this assertion, particularly given that McGrady was unable to advance past the first round of the post-season in each of the seasons in question save the two in which neither Orlando or Houston qualified for the playoffs. And your use of his body-type as proof of sound work-habits is laughable in the face of eye-witness accounts of exactly the opposite from one of his former head coaches. Jeff Van Gundy's resume is irrelevant, as are his comments about Michael Jordan- comments I believe to be true, for why else would Jordan take them so personally? He was around Tracy McGrady on an almost daily basis and had numerous opportunities to observe the former's behavior in both practice and game situations. If he says McGrady didn't always give maximum effort, I'm inclined to believe him.

 

--Captain Decker

 

[Quin]

It takes more than one man to advance in the playoffs.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I'd be interested in knowing how you intend to verify this assertion, particularly given that McGrady was unable to advance past the first round of the post-season in each of the seasons in question save the two in which neither Orlando or Houston qualified for the playoffs. And your use of his body-type as proof of sound work-habits is laughable in the face of eye-witness accounts of exactly the opposite from one of his former head coaches. Jeff Van Gundy's resume is irrelevant, as are his comments about Michael Jordan- comments I believe to be true, for why else would Jordan take them so personally? He was around Tracy McGrady on an almost daily basis and had numerous opportunities to observe the former's behavior in both practice and game situations. If he says McGrady didn't always give maximum effort, I'm inclined to believe him.

 

--Captain Decker

 

So, basically without the Van Gundy comments, you'd have nothing? Did you say to yourself back in 2001, "Man, that McGrady is so good, but he could be much better if he just tried more." I already know the answer so you don't have to say anything. If there's a bunch of guys, former teammates, coaches, assistant coaches, etc - that's different. As far as him not advancing past the first round, go back and look at some of these Orlando rosters and that answers that. I will say Houston kinda choked in '05 because they were up 2-0 with games 3 and 4 at home. And even then T-mac averaged 31.7 ppg in that series. Other than that they could never stay healthy. No need to over analyze. It's really that simple.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Jordan4life

[Willard Decker]

It takes more than one man to advance in the playoffs.

 

When the lowest common denominator on each of the teams in question is Tracy McGrady, the bulk of the responsibility for the failure of each team to advance rests with him. Is that fair? No, but only the most naïve individual would argue that professional sports should be fair. Competition isn't about fairness- beyond proper observance of a sport's rules and regulations by all competitors- but about the ability of one team or individual to overcome another. Tracy McGrady's teams couldn't overcome the obstacles placed before them.

 

--Captain Decker

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

When the lowest common denominator on each of the teams in question is Tracy McGrady, the bulk of the responsibility for the failure of each team to advance rests with him. Is that fair? No, but only the most naïve individual would argue that professional sports should be fair. Competition isn't about fairness- beyond proper observance of a sport's rules and regulations by all competitors- but about the ability of one team or individual to overcome another. Tracy McGrady's teams couldn't overcome the obstacles placed before them.

 

--Captain Decker

 

Good thing LeBron was smarter than this. He'd still be in Cleveland getting bounced in the 2nd round every year.

[Willard Decker]

So, basically without the Van Gundy comments, you'd have nothing? Did you say to yourself back in 2001, "Man, that McGrady is so good, but he could be much better if he just tried more." I already know the answer so you don't have to say anything. If there's a bunch of guys, former teammates, coaches, assistant coaches, etc - that's different. As far as him not advancing past the first round, go back and look at some of these Orlando rosters and that answers that. I will say Houston kinda choked in '05 because they were up 2-0 with games 3 and 4 at home. And even then T-mac averaged 31.7 ppg in that series. Other than that they could never stay healthy. No need to over analyze. It's really that simple.

 

As a matter of fact, I did say that on several occasions. McGrady entered the league as an above-average defensive player but regressed rapidly during his four seasons in Orlando, something that anyone who watched him play on a regular basis would have noticed. That Jeff Van Gundy later made statements about his work-ethic didn't surprise me, as I'd already seen evidence of such for myself.

 

And please don't presume to put words in my mouth. Few things irritate me more than people who believe they know better than I do what I think about a particular topic.

 

--Captain Decker

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

As a matter of fact, I did say that on several occasions. McGrady entered the league as an above-average defensive player but regressed rapidly during his four seasons in Orlando, something that anyone who watched him play on a regular basis would have noticed. That Jeff Van Gundy later made statements about his work-ethic didn't surprise me, as I'd already seen evidence of such for myself.

 

And please don't presume to put words in my mouth. Few things irritate me more than people who believe they know better than I do what I think about a particular topic.

 

--Captain Decker

 

I don't agree with this. But let's pretend for a second I do.

 

Darrell Armstrong

Bo Outlaw

Mike Miller

John Amaechi

Pat Garrity

Monty Williams

Andrew Declerq

Patrick Ewing (not the Knicks version)

Horace Grant (lol)

Steven Hunter

Drew Gooden

Gordon Giracek

Shawn Kemp (lmao)

Juwan Howard

Keith Bogans

Tyrone Lue

 

This is just some of the utter garbage T-mac had to play with in his Orlando days. Is it that hard to imagine that one guy that had to carry so much of the scoring/playmaking load would suffer a little defensively?

Edited February 10, 2014 by Jordan4life

[ZoomSlowik]

Houston-era McGrady was quite the chucker. Sooooo many long jumpers. I have a very hard time blaming all of that on his back, though that obviously didn't help.

 

Orlando-era T-Mac was a stud though, and he was still very good his first year in Houston. It's pretty flukey that he NEVER made the second round, though it was kind of funny that Houston made the 2nd round when he was out and went on a crazy winning streak largely without him.

[southsider2k5]

I don't know who strange theme poster-dude is, but McGrady's lack of work ethic is the stuff of legends

[Jordan4life_2007]

I don't know who strange theme poster-dude is, but McGrady's lack of work ethic is the stuff of legends

 

lmao. If you say so. Shaq coming into every season, outside of his mvp one, fat and out of shape got wayyyyyyyyy more pub than T-mac's so-called lack of work ethic.

[southsider2k5]

lmao. If you say so. Shaq coming into every season, outside of his mvp one, fat and out of shape got wayyyyyyyyy more pub than T-mac's so-called lack of work ethic.

 

Google "Tracy McGrady lazy"

[Jordan4life_2007]

Google "Tracy McGrady lazy"

 

I've seen those dumb sites. They're making fun of his lazy eye as much as anything.

 

40.1

38.3

39.4

40.0

40.8

 

Those were his minutes played from '01 to '05, his best ball. Those minutes at that level, yeah, lazy is not the word that comes to mind. T-mac is an easy target because he never got out the first round. But dude was great.

[ZoomSlowik]

I gotta admit, it's not a great sign when one of your nicknames is "The Big Sleep." Would have still gladly taken him at his peak, but he had a really short one.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I gotta admit, it's not a great sign when one of your nicknames is "The Big Sleep." Would have still gladly taken him at his peak, but he had a really short one.

 

That's what happens when your body doesn't cooperate. Chicago fans should know all about that. 2011 Rose more than likely was the best version of him we'll ever see.

[Jordan4life_2007]

And quite honestly, couldn't you question or nitpick about something of any player that never won a title? If I really wanted to, I get on a lot of really, really great players that didn't win titles. Ultimately, that's what it's all about.

[Willard Decker]

I don't agree with this. But let's pretend for a second I do.

 

Darrell Armstrong

Bo Outlaw

Mike Miller

John Amaechi

Pat Garrity

Monty Williams

Andrew Declerq

Patrick Ewing (not the Knicks version)

Horace Grant (lol)

Steven Hunter

Drew Gooden

Gordon Giracek

Shawn Kemp (lmao)

Juwan Howard

Keith Bogans

Tyrone Lue

 

This is just some of the utter garbage T-mac had to play with in his Orlando days. Is it that hard to imagine that one guy that had to carry so much of the scoring/playmaking load would suffer a little defensively?

 

As I've stated previously, I was a Tracy McGrady fan. I don't need a reminder of whom he played with while a member of the Orlando Magic. No one disputes that McGrady was asked to shoulder significant responsibility due to his teammates' shortcomings. What people have repeatedly called into question when discussing his career is whether he shouldered enough.

 

 

Houston-era McGrady was quite the chucker. Sooooo many long jumpers. I have a very hard time blaming all of that on his back, though that obviously didn't help.

 

Orlando-era T-Mac was a stud though, and he was still very good his first year in Houston. It's pretty flukey that he NEVER made the second round, though it was kind of funny that Houston made the 2nd round when he was out and went on a crazy winning streak largely without him.

 

McGrady was present for the twenty-two-game winning streak and finished among the top five vote-getters in Most Valuable Player voting that season (2007-08).

 

I've seen those dumb sites. They're making fun of his lazy eye as much as anything.

 

40.1

38.3

39.4

40.0

40.8

 

Those were his minutes played from '01 to '05, his best ball. Those minutes at that level, yeah, lazy is not the word that comes to mind. T-mac is an easy target because he never got out the first round. But dude was great.

 

The problem with this argument is that it implies anyone playing fewer minutes works less hard than McGrady, a hypothesis that's virtually impossible to prove.

 

--Captain Decker

 

[ZoomSlowik]

That's what happens when your body doesn't cooperate. Chicago fans should know all about that. 2011 Rose more than likely was the best version of him we'll ever see.

 

His issues weren't nearly as bad as Rose. He still played 78, 71 and 66 games 3 of those years in Houston and only missed the playoffs once in those 5 years. Chris Webber had similar/worse issues and didn't fall off nearly as precipitously.

[Rowand44]

I was actually going to say that a lot of the Mcgrady lazy stuff comes from the lazy eye.

[Jordan4life_2007]

His issues weren't nearly as bad as Rose. He still played 78, 71 and 66 games 3 of those years in Houston and only missed the playoffs once in those 5 years. Chris Webber had similar/worse issues and didn't fall off nearly as precipitously.

 

Just because you're out there playing doesn't mean you're healthy or 100%. T-mac's slashing/penetration game was never the same after '05 and it's not because defenses figured him out. And Webber never had a peak as high as t-macs. therefore the drop wouldn't be as great.

[southsider2k5]

I've seen those dumb sites. They're making fun of his lazy eye as much as anything.

 

40.1

38.3

39.4

40.0

40.8

 

Those were his minutes played from '01 to '05, his best ball. Those minutes at that level, yeah, lazy is not the word that comes to mind. T-mac is an easy target because he never got out the first round. But dude was great.

 

There were plenty there, including McGrady talking about how he didn't practice hard, and another putting him on the list of the laziest players in the NBA.

[Willard Decker]

And quite honestly, couldn't you question or nitpick about something of any player that never won a title? If I really wanted to, I get on a lot of really, really great players that didn't win titles. Ultimately, that's what it's all about.

 

No, it's not. This is about your assertion that McGrady's inability to fulfill his potential as a basketball player may be blamed solely on injuries to his knees and lower-back, an assertion that you've yet to prove.

 

--Captain Decker

[Willard Decker]

I was actually going to say that a lot of the Mcgrady lazy stuff comes from the lazy eye.

 

As an aside, it surprises me that McGrady never elected to have strabismus surgery to correct the malallignment. But I digress...

 

--Captain Decker

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

No, it's not. This is about your assertion that McGrady's inability to fulfill his potential as a basketball player may be blamed solely on injuries to his knees and lower-back, an assertion that you've yet to prove.

 

--Captain Decker

 

And what exactly have you proven? You spit out some quotes from a perennial loser in Van Gundy and that's about it. Do you know what T-mac's daily workout regimen was during his playing days? Particularly his Orlando days?

Edited February 10, 2014 by Jordan4life

[Willard Decker]

Just because you're out there playing doesn't mean you're healthy or 100%. T-mac's slashing/penetration game was never the same after '05 and it's not because defenses figured him out. And Webber never had a peak as high as t-macs. therefore the drop wouldn't be as great.

 

None of these points addresses the matter at hand: Tracy McGrady's work-habits. By now, everyone who's followed basketball over the past fifteen years knows of McGrady's injury history. It's also known that he was not an effective player unless he was playing within a system in which he was the primary scorer and ball-handler, as he seldom impacted the game defensively save for brief stretches. Why is this relevant? Because defensive prowess is determined by the combination of awareness and effort, both of which were lacking where McGrady was concerned.

 

--Captain Decker