NBA Thread 2013-2014

[Jordan4life_2007]

None of these points addresses the matter at hand: Tracy McGrady's work-habits. By now, everyone who's followed basketball over the past fifteen years knows of McGrady's injury history. It's also known that he was not an effective player unless he was playing within a system in which he was the primary scorer and ball-handler, as he seldom impacted the game defensively save for brief stretches. Why is this relevant? Because defensive prowess is determined by the combination of awareness and effort, both of which were lacking where McGrady was concerned.

 

--Captain Decker

 

Check the post right above this one. You say I haven't proven anything. what the hell have you proven?

 

You could look at Charles Barkley and Shaq a lot of years and say to youreself, "damn, dude ate too many cheeseburgers during the offseason." When could you ever say that about T-mac? Where's the actual eye proof evidence that he was lazy or didn't work hard enough in the offseason?

Edited February 10, 2014 by Jordan4life

[Willard Decker]

And what exactly have you proven? You spit out some quotes from a perennial loser in Van Gundy and that's about it. Do you know what T-mac's daily workout regimen was during his playing days? Particularly his Orlando days?

 

You made the original assertion about McGrady's work-ethic. You dismissed the eye-witness accounts of Jeff Van Gundy- a respected former NBA head coach- on the basis that someone who grabs Alonzo Mourning's leg to protect one of his players is not to be trusted. You have repeatedly sidestepped the issue of McGrady's work-ethic by citing meaningless statistics about minutes-played as though the numbers in question serve as irrefutable proof of McGrady's willingness to put forth a consistent effort in both practice and games. Therefore, the burden of proof in this case rests with you.

 

--Captain Decker

 

[Willard Decker]

You could look at Charles Barkley and Shaq a lot of years and say to youreself, "damn, dude ate too many cheeseburgers during the offseason." When could you ever say that about T-mac? Where's the actual eye proof evidence that he was lazy or didn't work hard enough in the offseason?

 

Neither Charles Barkley or Shaquille O'Neal is relevant to this discussion.

 

--Captain Decker

 

[ZoomSlowik]

Just because you're out there playing doesn't mean you're healthy or 100%. T-mac's slashing/penetration game was never the same after '05 and it's not because defenses figured him out. And Webber never had a peak as high as t-macs. therefore the drop wouldn't be as great.

 

If you're on the court, you're in much better shape than Rose.

 

No, he probably wasn't 100% a lot of those games, but neither were Kobe, Wade and Pierce for long stretches of their career. Those guys never had a 3-year run where they put up a TS% of .494, .515 and ..487 while still tossing up 20 shots a game. That's especially bad since he was still drawing seven FT a game through that stretch and shot a ton of 3's. He was perfectly content tossing up 15 long jumpers a game (3's and 16-foot plus jumpers according to hoopdata).

 

Finally, you were missing the point a bit on Webber. T-Mac was basically done as a productive player by age 29. He shot 38.8% that year year. Even if he didn't win scoring titles, that's a HUGE drop-off. Webber put up a 23-10-5 line with 1.6 steals and 1.3 blocks in his age 29 season. He still posted three 19-9-4 type seasons after that, albiet his FG% cratered over that stretch. Tracy was already putting up some pretty terrible TS% even before that. That's why it might take him a while to get into the Hall of Fame.

[Willard Decker]

From Hoops Hype, an affiliate of USA Today Sports:

 

McGrady, 31, doesn’t exactly see it like that. The two-time scoring champion and seven-time All-Star, far removed from his marquee days following numerous injuries, doesn’t believe he would have attained even higher levels had he worked harder. But McGrady does admit there was an area he was lacking in during his heyday.“I just wasn’t a great practice player,’’ McGrady, a Detroit guard, said in an interview with HoopsHype. “I just wasn’t. I wasn’t.’’ Speaking at the MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference in Boston two weeks ago, Jeff Van Gundy, who coached McGrady with Houston from 2004-07, and current Rockets general manager Daryl Morey, who traded McGrady in February 2010 to New York, both said McGrady’s tremendous ability led him to not always work hard. McGrady doesn’t deny his talent affected how he played in practice. “That could be it,’’ McGrady said. “I just think I could cruise through practice and still be effective. Some guys have to really go (all) out to really have an impact on practice. My ability was just I had God-given talent to where I could just cruise through practice and still be an effective practice player... I was inconsistent. Some days, I have really good (practice) days where I just go hard and a lot of days where like, ‘Uh,’ and I just go through the motions. But I work hard. But I’m just not the best practice player.’’ McGrady’s contention is he worked hard individually, if not in practice, to become a star and someone who still could land in the Hall of Fame. But Van Gundy and Morey were critical of his overall work ethic.

 

--Captain Decker

[Jordan4life_2007]

You made the original assertion about McGrady's work-ethic. You dismissed the eye-witness accounts of Jeff Van Gundy- a respected former NBA head coach- on the basis that someone who grabs Alonzo Mourning's leg to protect one of his players is not to be trusted. You have repeatedly sidestepped the issue of McGrady's work-ethic by citing meaningless statistics about minutes-played as though the numbers in question serve as irrefutable proof of McGrady's willingness to put forth a consistent effort in both practice and games. Therefore, the burden of proof in this case rests with you.

 

--Captain Decker

 

Zzzzzzzz. He never won a title. Therefore you can critique and criticize. If KG doesn't win in '08 and Dirk doesn't win in '11, lots of people would be doing the same thing with those two. It's lame and boring and i'm done. T-mac was arguably the second greatest sg we've ever seen and his dominance was cut wayyyyyy short because of physical setbacks. The end. see ya.

[Willard Decker]

Zzzzzzzz. He never won a title. Therefore you can critique and criticize. If KG doesn't win in '08 and Dirk doesn't win in '11, lots of people would be doing the same thing with those two. It's lame and boring and i'm done. T-mac was arguably the second greatest sg we've ever seen and his dominance was cut wayyyyyy short because of physical setbacks. The end. see ya.

 

How convenient of you to leave moments after I post an article in which McGrady himself admits he was a poor practice player. Don't let the door hit you on your way out.

 

--Captain Decker

[Jordan4life_2007]

So you've gone from mediocre work ethic to not the best practice player? Um, ok. When I think work ethic, i think about what you're doing in the offseason and when nobody is around to tell you what to do. Not what you're doing in practice against Ty Lue.

[Willard Decker]

So you've gone from mediocre work ethic to not the best practice player? Um, ok. When I think work ethic, i think about what you're doing in the offseason and when nobody is around to tell you what to do. Not what you're doing in practice against Ty Lue.

 

I'll say this much: you must have a superb work-ethic to be so willing to move the goal-posts as much as you have.

 

--Captain Decker

[SoxAce]

Orlando-era T-Mac was a stud though, and he was still very good his first year in Houston.

 

He was my favorite player in the late 90s-early 00s, even though he snubbed Chicago when he signed in Orlando.

 

He was never as lazy about the game nor lack the heart as his cousin Vince (as I've stated repeatedly could of been/should of been one of the greatest ever) did and actually made the most out of what he had offensively during that time/prime/peak. Now with that said.. with his athleticism, length, quickness, movement without the ball, etc. he should of had much more impact on the game defensively. (most of that is on him, but he was always the man since high school and he never had the best defensive coaches either strategically, same as Carmelo currently) A shame what injuries did to him later on. Also a shame he didn't pay attention to detail as much on the court during stretches.

[Jordan4life_2007]

He was my favorite player in the late 90s-early 00s, even though he snubbed Chicago when he signed in Orlando.

 

He was never as lazy about the game nor lack the heart as his cousin Vince (as I've stated repeatedly could of been/should of been one of the greatest ever) did and actually made the most out of what he had offensively during that time/prime/peak. Now with that said.. with his athleticism, length, quickness, movement without the ball, etc. he should of had much more impact on the game defensively. (most of that is on him, but he was always the man since high school and he never had the best defensive coaches either strategically, same as Carmelo currently) A shame what injuries did to him later on. Also a shame he didn't pay attention to detail as much on the court during stretches.

 

He probably could've had Grant Hill been healthy. Again, look at what he had to work with. Awful.

[ZoomSlowik]

Zzzzzzzz. He never won a title. Therefore you can critique and criticize. If KG doesn't win in '08 and Dirk doesn't win in '11, lots of people would be doing the same thing with those two. It's lame and boring and i'm done. T-mac was arguably the second greatest sg we've ever seen and his dominance was cut wayyyyyy short because of physical setbacks. The end. see ya.

 

I really doubt anyone would question KG's work ethic under any circumstances.

[Steve9347]

Arguing T-Mac as the 2nd greatest SG ever is pretty moronic, because Jordan and Kobe.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Orlando with back to back 1 point wins against OKC and Indy.

[Willard Decker]

Now with that said.. with his athleticism, length, quickness, movement without the ball, etc. he should of had much more impact on the game defensively. (most of that is on him, but he was always the man since high school and he never had the best defensive coaches either strategically, same as Carmelo currently) A shame what injuries did to him later on. Also a shame he didn't pay attention to detail as much on the court during stretches.

 

Don't agree with this at all. Jeff Van Gundy's Knicks teams were regularly among the top five teams in opponent's field-goal percentage and points-per-game despite having no stand-out individual defensive players. Larry Johnson was Van Gundy's most effective on-the-ball defender, a player whom Scottie Pippen cited as one of the league's worst defensive players. Van Gundy's Rockets teams were similarly effective with an uninterested McGrady on the roster. He had an opportunity to learn how to play defense effectively but never took advantage of it.

 

--Captain Decker

Edited February 10, 2014 by Willard Decker

[Jordan4life_2007]

I really doubt anyone would question KG's work ethic under any circumstances.

 

Then it would've been something else. KG was too unselfish. He didn't have enough fire and passion. He wasn't aggressive. And then somebody like you would've cited his supporting cast.

[Rowand44]

The Clips have 26 points 5 minutes into the game.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Rowand44

[ZoomSlowik]

Then it would've been something else. KG was too unselfish. He didn't have enough fire and passion. He wasn't aggressive. And then somebody like you would've cited his supporting cast.

 

Are you sure you've seen KG play?

 

You don't really hear that much about Barkley or Malone other than "well, they didn't win a ring". I doubt that happens with Dirk either if he doesn't win.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Are you sure you've seen KG play?

 

You don't really hear that much about Barkley or Malone other than "well, they didn't win a ring". I doubt that happens with Dirk either if he doesn't win.

 

Yeah, the fire and passion example was off. But you know what I mean. And Barkley and Malone played before the internet/social media era. And are you serious about Dirk? Not only did his team blow a 2-0 lead to miami, they come back the next year and get bounced by the 8th seeded warriors. His legacy would look MUCH DIFFERENT if not for '11.

[Steve9347]

The Clippers are up 28-5 on the Sixers with 5:40 left in the first.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Steve9347

[SoxAce]

Don't agree with this at all. Jeff Van Gundy's Knicks teams were regularly among the top five teams in opponent's field-goal percentage and points-per-game despite having no stand-out individual defensive players. Larry Johnson was Van Gundy's most effective on-the-ball defender, a player whom Scottie Pippen cited as one of the league's worst defensive players. Van Gundy's Rockets teams were similarly effective with an uninterested McGrady on the roster. He had an opportunity to learn how to play defense effectively but never took advantage of it.

 

--Captain Decker

 

I think anyone with a brain knows that was Pat Riley's work in those early Knicks years when he took over and implemented the 1-3-1 trap. (which was brilliant and he was also the first coach to watch video during halftime to break down adjustments) Guys like Oakley, Ewing (although he was already a stud), Starks, etc. were already all defensive players before Van Gundy took over. Now, he used alot of Pat's philosophy in his coaching and it helped hide...er..."made non defensive players better" such as LJ as you alluded to (same with Thibodeau on certain guys currently), but his in-game adjustments/creativity (which is part of what he was criticized for) was indeed poor.

Edited February 10, 2014 by SoxAce

[ZoomSlowik]

Yeah, the fire and passion example was off. But you know what I mean. And Barkley and Malone played before the internet/social media era. And are you serious about Dirk? Not only did his team blow a 2-0 lead to miami, they come back the next year and get bounced by the 8th seeded warriors. His legacy would look MUCH DIFFERENT if not for '11.

 

I don't recall Dirk catching a lot of crap before he got his title, other than some people making fun of him for getting his MVP after getting bounced. Certainly nothing compared to Lebron, and I honestly remember Kobe catching more crap post- Shaq/pre-Gasol even though he had three rings. If anything, I remember reading several articles from the basketball nerds talking about how underrated Dirk was.

[Jordan4life_2007]

The Clippers are up 28-5 on the Sixers with 5:40 left in the first.

 

Have fun with the Sixers now. If they get Wiggins, it's on for them. They got Noel coming back and MCW has proven to be flawed but plenty legit. That's potentially an elite ball-stopper, versatile wing defender and rim protector on the same team.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Jordan4life

[Rowand44]

46-15 Clips after 1.

[Steve9347]

The Clippers are up 52-15.