NBA Thread 2013-2014

[kev211]

Uh no those are options.

 

I can give you more if you like:

 

2 seed with Rose 75%

 

3 seed with Rose 80%

 

etc etc

 

The point is that at a certain point (who knows where) it becomes more important for your player to be healthy, than to have home court advantage. Where that point is, who knows, could be different for different teams.

 

SS2k,

 

Look if Thibs sat guys more and had no injuries and somehow the Bulls got a 2 seed and lost in 7, people would blame him.

 

It is a damned if you do, damned if you dont honestly and I understand that.

 

But its the offseason, now is the time to discuss what WE think will give the Bulls a better chance to win. I think that if starters rest a little more in the regular season, we will see better results in the playoffs.

 

Could be wrong, could be right. But when youre not winning it all, you should always be looking for ways to improve. May not implement them, but certainly should discuss.

If those are options I'll take 1 seed fully healthy Derrick Rose. Which we had in 2011 so don't tell me it isn't possible the way thibs plays his guys.

 

[bmags]

The only player mentioned so far that would have worked in a basketball sense is Harden. Since the Thunder were trying to get out of salary hell, it is very unclear to me how we could have made that work better than Houston did. We didn't have a Kevin Martin or a Doron Lamb, and I'm not sure if our Charlotte pick would have been enticing since it is likely to be deferred fairly far into the future.

 

Sometimes teams can seem to get trades done out of sheer force of will (Lakers and Howard, CP3 and Clips), but we had legitimate competition for Harden and I can't believe we could have matched what Houston offered, not to mention -- is it possible OKC wasn't eager to further bolster a team that was already a title contender?

 

We were never in running for Harden, I doubt we ever called.

 

The point is 50% roughly of stars that have moved in past 5-6 years have been traded, half thru free agency. When you consistently are only going to make plans for free agency you are removing options from the table. And I would love to see evidence that bulls actually call other GMs about trades because I haven't seen it. IT seemed like Forman didn't even know Dwight Howard was getting traded until reporters were calling him to make sure he was involved, because he's a GM with a basketball team.

[Balta1701]

We were never in running for Harden, I doubt we ever called.

 

The point is 50% roughly of stars that have moved in past 5-6 years have been traded, half thru free agency. When you consistently are only going to make plans for free agency you are removing options from the table. And I would love to see evidence that bulls actually call other GMs about trades because I haven't seen it. IT seemed like Forman didn't even know Dwight Howard was getting traded until reporters were calling him to make sure he was involved, because he's a GM with a basketball team.

You're kidding, so the problem is that the GM of a basketball team isn't loud enough while announcing which possibly traded players he might be involved in?

[Soxbadger]

If those are options I'll take 1 seed fully healthy Derrick Rose. Which we had in 2011 so don't tell me it isn't possible the way thibs plays his guys.

 

Its possible that MJ unretires and signs with the Bulls and they win 20 championships.

 

We can always close our eyes and dream about good things happening, but I generally like to discuss how can prepare for the worst things that will happen, and are there anyways to prevent those bad things from happening.

 

No one is saying that you cant just have faith and believe good things will happen.

 

Ill take the option where Derrick Rose comes back like the kid from rookie of the league and averages 200 points a game.

 

WOOT WOOT

[bmags]

You're kidding, so the problem is that the GM of a basketball team isn't loud enough while announcing which possibly traded players he might be involved in?

 

No the problem is he makes plans for 3 years in advance to sign a player to a max contract, continually misses, and continually has blinders on to anything else that may improve the team besides mid level contracts to vets to fill out the roster year in and year out.

 

The lakers know everyone is available to them at any time because they are the lakers. It's a lesson the bulls should learn if they want to become talented enough to win the title and not merely well-coached.

[Boogua]

Fixed.

 

 

 

This was Rose after game 4 of that series.

 

Some video. At 4:10 he clearly shakes Lebron, but doesn't go to the rim because he is most likely fatigued (Greg Anthony agrees in the highlight). 4:40, Rose easily goes baseline and the whole Heat defense collapses on Rose and he dishes it out to Brewer for 3. At 5:20 he completely blows by Lebron, but Wade comes from the weak side and sends it.

 

You can blow the guy all you want, but the Heat defense collapsed every time Rose got by Lebron. On the most important possession of the game he gets Lebron off balance, but settles for a jumper. This video was from game 4.

 

Look, Lebron is good defensively, but wow is he an overrated man defender.

 

E:

--- in game 5 at 2:25 he gets by Lebron when driving to the rim, but the whole heat defense collapses and blocks Rose. There aren't too many highlights with Lebron on Rose, but to think he completely shut down Rose by himself is stupid.

 

Edited July 3, 2013 by Boogua

[Balta1701]

No the problem is he makes plans for 3 years in advance to sign a player to a max contract, continually misses, and continually has blinders on to anything else that may improve the team besides mid level contracts to vets to fill out the roster year in and year out.

 

The lakers know everyone is available to them at any time because they are the lakers. It's a lesson the bulls should learn if they want to become talented enough to win the title and not merely well-coached.

First of all...the role of the "He" in this discussion changed a couple years ago. I'm not sure if that even registered.

 

Secondly...I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what deal he missed out on. Harden was the best response and even then the Bulls couldn't offer salary cap relief. Are y'all jealous that we didn't get Joe Johnson or something like that?

[bmags]

First of all...the role of the "He" in this discussion changed a couple years ago. I'm not sure if that even registered.

 

Secondly...I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what deal he missed out on. Harden was the best response and even then the Bulls couldn't offer salary cap relief. Are y'all jealous that we didn't get Joe Johnson or something like that?

 

No the role of he did not.

 

And to answer your question, he's missed out on every trade. And every trade yet to be conceived. And this board will rationalize it for this and that, meanwhile some team with real management will have worked out their salary via trading assets and salarys to smart teams taking advantage and dumb teams trying to stay relevant.

 

And we will psyche ourselves into how a starting lineup of rose butler snell mirotic and noah could really pull a fast one on the (new super team)

 

[Jenksismyhero]

First of all...the role of the "He" in this discussion changed a couple years ago. I'm not sure if that even registered.

 

Secondly...I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what deal he missed out on. Harden was the best response and even then the Bulls couldn't offer salary cap relief. Are y'all jealous that we didn't get Joe Johnson or something like that?

 

If they don't have the appropriate contracts to deal then it's still on the Bulls front office for making those s***ty deals to begin with.

 

Some guy was on Mully and Hanley this morning talking about the Bulls since 1998, how they've basically had a 3-4 year plan ever since. And every single time it doesn't pan out. It started to get me really pissed off how the Bulls can successfully sell "hope" to the fan base. Here we are yet again, hoping that Mirotic is everything we've been told and the Bobcats lottery pick is going to get something decent. Otherwise we have passed up many potential deals to make THIS team better, banking on what COULD be in a couple of seasons.

[Balta1701]

Otherwise we have passed up many potential deals to make THIS team better, banking on what COULD be in a couple of seasons.

name a single one.

[Jenksismyhero]

name a single one.

 

Harden would look pretty f'n good on the Bulls team, and i'm sure the cap gurus could have figured out the appropriate set of players to get it done. I don't have a good enough NBA memory to know what major guys have been put up as trade bait the last several years, but there have been plenty. It's not like major players don't get traded in this league. And even if those trades weren't publicly discussed, the fact is the Bulls COULD have been making calls to see what it would take to get certain guys with the assets they have. And all of the insiders have said the Bulls just don't do that.

 

Wasn't Kobe at one point seriously considering a move and Chicago was a team on his list and the Bulls refused to give up Deng?

Edited July 3, 2013 by Jenksismybitch

[Balta1701]

Harden would look pretty f'n good on the Bulls team, and i'm sure the cap gurus could have figured out the appropriate set of players to get it done. I don't have a good enough NBA memory to know what major guys have been put up as trade bait the last several years, but there have been plenty. It's not like major players don't get traded in this league. And even if those trades weren't publicly discussed, the fact is the Bulls COULD have been making calls to see what it would take to get certain guys with the assets they have. And all of the insiders have said the Bulls just don't do that.

 

Wasn't Kobe at one point seriously considering a move and Chicago was a team on his list and the Bulls refused to give up Deng?

If anyone believes the Lakers would genuinely have given up Kobe, I have a bridge to sell them...but yes, that one was the talk. And if that one could have happened and didn't then that was a mistake.

 

Yes, Harden would look good on the Bulls, but as was just pointed out, the Bulls simply did not have an expiring contract to offer up for him while the Rockets did. The Thunder wouldn't have taken on Deng or Noah because that would have put them in Luxury tax territory this year.

[Jake]

The story I've always heard on the Kobe trade is that Kobe didn't think the Bulls were worth coming to without Deng and the Lakers didn't think the Bulls were worth trading with unless they received Deng in the trade.

 

Anywho, most of the time star players are traded, they become the only star on their team. Carmelo forces his way to NY, becomes THE star. Don't give me Amar'e bulls***, either. Harden to Houston, only star. Deron Williams to Brooklyn, only star (still is IMO). CP3 to Clips, only star. Howard was the one exception, but with the commonality that he forced his way out of his current situation. Joe Johnson is almost an exception, except he's not really a star but wanted to be treated like one. We were never going to give him $20M a year so that seems like a deal best left undone.

 

When you have one of they very best players in the NBA already on your roster, everything else gets more complicated for both basketball and financial reasons. We are not going to bring a guy onto the Bulls that will become their best player. We cannot bring anyone onto the Bulls that earns more than their best player. We can't trade for a star player that plays the same position as our star. These are complications.

[Jenksismyhero]

If anyone believes the Lakers would genuinely have given up Kobe, I have a bridge to sell them...but yes, that one was the talk. And if that one could have happened and didn't then that was a mistake.

 

Yes, Harden would look good on the Bulls, but as was just pointed out, the Bulls simply did not have an expiring contract to offer up for him while the Rockets did. The Thunder wouldn't have taken on Deng or Noah because that would have put them in Luxury tax territory this year.

 

They made offers, so they were clearly serious.

 

Harden could have been had for whatever price the Bulls were willing to give. They could have worked something out. Taj and the Bobcats for example.

 

You can honestly argue that the Bulls have done everything they can to maximize their roster? GMAB. They hold onto their assets for way too long hoping things pan out and then they don't. We're going through the same routine right now. They just got lucky with the Rose pick.

[southsider2k5]

I guess if Im given the choice of:

 

8 seed fully healthy D-Rose

 

or

 

1 seed no D-Rose

 

Im going with the 8th seed. You guys keep acting like im talking about absolutes. When it really is discretion. Its about sitting guys when you are up 10 with 1 minute left. When you are up 20 with 4 minutes left. Its about sitting guys when you are down 20 with 2 minutes left. its about sitting an injured guy 1 more game to make sure they are 100%.

 

And if 1 time you happen to lose one of those games, oh f***ing well.

 

Those aren't the only two choices at all. Rose could get hit by a meteorite in the parking lot at the UC. Should we not let them go to the UC?

[Steve9347]

Nobody can shut Derrick down 1 on 1. The Heat as a team surely give him problems though. I'll agree with that.

Ha. Well, LeBron can.

[Balta1701]

Ha. Well, LeBron can.

It was argued shortly after that post that Lebron had a ton of help defense when he was doing that and that the Heat would collapse on Rose every time he drove. I think that's fairly accurate; the Heat didn't respect anyone else's ability to score, drive, or hit from outside.

[Steve9347]

Harden would look pretty f'n good on the Bulls team

No s***, Sherlock.

[illinilaw08]

Harden would look pretty f'n good on the Bulls team, and i'm sure the cap gurus could have figured out the appropriate set of players to get it done. I don't have a good enough NBA memory to know what major guys have been put up as trade bait the last several years, but there have been plenty. It's not like major players don't get traded in this league. And even if those trades weren't publicly discussed, the fact is the Bulls COULD have been making calls to see what it would take to get certain guys with the assets they have. And all of the insiders have said the Bulls just don't do that.

 

Wasn't Kobe at one point seriously considering a move and Chicago was a team on his list and the Bulls refused to give up Deng?

 

OKC got Kevin Martin, Jeremy Lamb, 2 1s and a 2 in the Harden trade. Objectively, the Houston 1s were always going to be better than picks offered by the Bulls. Additionally, in Martin, OKC got a player they were hoping would give back a decent amount of Harden's production and a young asset in Lamb (who, remember, was a lottery pick in '12). Who could the Bulls have offered OKC that would have made this work? Butler? Hadn't proven anything yet. Deng? Boozer? Why would OKC have wanted those assets. The Charlotte pick and Mirotic would have been intriguing, but OKC wanted pieces to help them win NOW. The Bulls just didn't have the pieces to move for Harden (who, by the way, was coming off a particuarly bad Finals and who certainly wasn't a definite star at the time of the trade).

 

You don't make a move for the sake of making a move when you are in the Bulls position. You make a move that will put you over the top. The last time Rose was healthy in the playoffs, the Bulls made the ECF!

[bmags]

The story I've always heard on the Kobe trade is that Kobe didn't think the Bulls were worth coming to without Deng and the Lakers didn't think the Bulls were worth trading with unless they received Deng in the trade.

 

Anywho, most of the time star players are traded, they become the only star on their team. Carmelo forces his way to NY, becomes THE star. Don't give me Amar'e bulls***, either. Harden to Houston, only star. Deron Williams to Brooklyn, only star (still is IMO). CP3 to Clips, only star. Howard was the one exception, but with the commonality that he forced his way out of his current situation. Joe Johnson is almost an exception, except he's not really a star but wanted to be treated like one. We were never going to give him $20M a year so that seems like a deal best left undone.

 

When you have one of they very best players in the NBA already on your roster, everything else gets more complicated for both basketball and financial reasons. We are not going to bring a guy onto the Bulls that will become their best player. We cannot bring anyone onto the Bulls that earns more than their best player. We can't trade for a star player that plays the same position as our star. These are complications.

 

The Knicks had just given Amare a huge contract, he absolutely was the second star on their team. His back obviously crapped out but he was having a ridiculous season to that point. You can also just as easily state that CP3 was going to the Lakers, and he would not have been only star. And your last paragraph, I don't think any of that is actually true.

 

If we did some weird 3 way deal with boston and dallas where Dirk ended up a Bull, pretty sure Dirk would make more than Rose. I don't think any of that would matter. (And in this case, dirk is an expiring contract and Garpax can have their 2014 spree where we land Lebron!)

 

Taj and Jimmy are both pretty good assets right now. Deng with an expiring asset as well. Also, could have used our trade exception for Robinson, but I guess we'll just let that expire. Why make team better when you can just be?

[Steve9347]

It was argued shortly after that post that Lebron had a ton of help defense when he was doing that and that the Heat would collapse on Rose every time he drove. I think that's fairly accurate; the Heat didn't respect anyone else's ability to score, drive, or hit from outside.

lunch bbq = booze

 

I just want everyone to stop debating this and I want the Bulls to find a legitimately scary second scoring option which they refuse to do.

[bmags]

(who, by the way, was coming off a particuarly bad Finals and who certainly wasn't a definite star at the time of the trade).

 

Even if this were true, which it wasn't, it just means that would have been the perfect time to figure this out.

[Jake]

For the record, I would argue that Taj Gibson is not a good trade asset. He is an okay NBA player and is being paid about market value for long term. That's not a great asset in a salary cap league.

[illinilaw08]

Even if this were true, which it wasn't, it just means that would have been the perfect time to figure this out.

 

Harden's Finals point totals:

 

5, 21, 9, 8 and 19. He was 2-10 from the floor in both games 3 and 4.

 

Everyone knew Harden was good. No one expected Harden would be as good as he was this past season.

 

And, again, even if the Bulls had seen Harden's '13 coming, do you honestly think the Bulls had the assets to beat what Houston gave up?

[Jenksismyhero]

Even if this were true, which it wasn't, it just means that would have been the perfect time to figure this out.

 

Exactly.

 

Like I said, i'm sure the cap gurus could have figured out how to make the numbers work. And it's not like OKC got a ton in return. The got a decent Martin (role player) for one season, Lamb (a project) a #11 and a couple other worthless picks. They weren't looking to replace Harden NOW. They were looking to keep the team at the same level while working towards the future.