NBA Thread 2013-2014

[southsider2k5]

Not really what? I said solid. You might have a different definition of solid than I do. A 17.2 PER as a rook is hardly awful. If it is, Bulls fans need to stop slobbing Luol Deng, who is painfully overrated (though I suspect Jimmy Butler will take Luol's title). And the Bulls employ Carlos Boozer. That alone should prove elite team defense can cover up individual abominations.

 

Elite teams win titles.

[Boogua]

Elite teams win titles.

I think he was saying elite "team defense" and not "elite team" defense. The bulls have elite "team defense" for sure.

[chw42]

Not really what? I said solid. You might have a different definition of solid than I do. A 17.2 PER as a rook is hardly awful. If it is, Bulls fans need to stop slobbing Luol Deng, who is painfully overrated (though I suspect Jimmy Butler will take Luol's title). And the Bulls employ Carlos Boozer. That alone should prove elite team defense can cover up individual abominations.

 

Look at his shooting efficiency.

[nitetrain8601]

Spectacular? Seriously? There's a reason 3 teams dumped him for basically nothing.

 

Yes, because of attitude and his penchant to hit the ganja, not due to talent.

[nitetrain8601]

Look at his shooting efficiency.

 

Look at Luol's.

[chw42]

Look at Luol's.

 

Luol's not a very efficient scorer either. A lot of his value comes from his defense.

[thxfrthmmrs]

I am willing to say most everyone here would be delighted if we picked up Beasley. To beat on the point over and over again, our FO is uncreative and lacks the balls to take any risk. If we go out and sign any of these reclamation projects like Oden and Beasley, there's a chance they can provide value for way more than they cost under the right coaching. At worst, you are paying these guys minimum deals.

 

Oh, and if Beasley gets to play with Lebron, Wade, and Bosh, it's not a stretch to think that he can at least shoot 45% and average 18 pts / 40 minutes

Edited September 13, 2013 by thxfrthmmrs

[Rowand44]

Nobody overrates Luol Deng on this board maybe the majority of the regular fans do but everyone's regular fan base are morons. As far as Jimmy Butler, once again, nobody thinks he's the next big thing but he is a legit starting sg and the Bulls have not had that yet in the Lebron/Miami era and that makes a huge difference.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Rowand44

[southsider2k5]

I am willing to say most everyone here would be delighted if we picked up Beasley. To beat on the point over and over again, our FO is uncreative and lacks the balls to take any risk. If we go out and sign any of these reclamation projects like Oden and Beasley, there's a chance they can provide value for way more than they cost under the right coaching. At worst, you are paying these guys minimum deals.

 

Oh, and if Beasley gets to play with Lebron, Wade, and Bosh, it's not a stretch to think that he can at least shoot 45% and average 18 pts / 40 minutes

 

Sure Beasley would score 18. He'd give up 30 on the other end of the floor though. Chicago has already been through Beasley, only back in the day we called him Eddy Curry.

 

[Jake]

Only on Soxtalk do the Bulls get criticized for not picking up guys that totally f***ing suck and lack any evidence to suggest they could be anything different

 

Then we pick up a reclamation project like Nate Robinson and he gives us a huge level of excitement...and nobody gives a s***

[Quin]

Remember when there was legitimate argument of Rose vs. Beasley?

 

I still think the Bulls take Beasley if Rose weren't the hometown hero.

 

But the second Beasley got to the league he has gotten so damn high that he lost his motor from college.

[thxfrthmmrs]

Only on Soxtalk do the Bulls get criticized for not picking up guys that totally f***ing suck and lack any evidence to suggest they could be anything different

 

Then we pick up a reclamation project like Nate Robinson and he gives us a huge level of excitement...and nobody gives a s***

 

That was a great deal for us last year. We took a guy who was a defensive liability, a signing no one was too fond of, and it paid off for us big time. Had Robinson not turned out well for us last year? No big deal, there was no commitment. I don't see why we should stop signing those guys this year.

 

Do we need a better back up big? Yes. Do we need another guy who can score? Hell yea. This is suppose to be the year we can finally contend, yet we stay put. So yes, go sign guy who totally f***ing suck last year to a minimum deal, because he has more talent than our 6 through 10 players, and give him a chance. And oh yea, Thibs is a guy who wouldn't let anyone out of his dog house if he doesn't think they can positively contribute. I don't see how a signing like Beasley or anyone else would hurt the team financially or basket wise.

 

If you honestly think the FO is pulling everything out of their pocket to make this team a championship team this off season, you are highly delusional.

[southsider2k5]

That was a great deal for us last year. We took a guy who was a defensive liability, a signing no one was too fond of, and it paid off for us big time. Had Robinson not turned out well for us last year? No big deal, there was no commitment. I don't see why we should stop signing those guys this year.

 

Do we need a better back up big? Yes. Do we need another guy who can score? Hell yea. This is suppose to be the year we can finally contend, yet we stay put. So yes, go sign guy who totally f***ing suck last year to a minimum deal, because he has more talent than our 6 through 10 players, and give him a chance. And oh yea, Thibs is a guy who wouldn't let anyone out of his dog house if he doesn't think they can positively contribute. I don't see how a signing like Beasley or anyone else would hurt the team financially or basket wise.

 

If you honestly think the FO is pulling everything out of their pocket to make this team a championship team this off season, you are highly delusional.

 

The front office isn't doing all it can do. That doesn't mean that Michael Beasley is the answer. I think you kind of hit on it accidentally, but Thibs would never play the guy anyway.

[thxfrthmmrs]

Sure Beasley would score 18. He'd give up 30 on the other end of the floor though. Chicago has already been through Beasley, only back in the day we called him Eddy Curry.

 

Except Curry was a center who can't move and jump over a pile of big macs, and Bill Cartwright left every single clue he has about defense back in his playing days.

 

We also have a guy like can score 18 and give up 30, we call him Carlos Boozer. We've also had guys like Nate Robinson, Marco Belinelli, Kyle Korver, Radmanovic, etc. Heck our third string PF is absolutely a worse defensive talent than Beasley. We didn't mind taking those guys in. We don't need a team full of defensive aces, we have enough to be a great defensive team.

 

Beasley is still only 24, definitely has more defensive potential than Boozer. To think that he can't improve defensively under Thibs tutelage and that he can't be motivated by the drive of Joakim and Derrick, and the Chicago brand of basketball, is frankly ludicrous, and a very lazy excuse for the Bulls not to go pursue these players.

[thxfrthmmrs]

The front office isn't doing all it can do. That doesn't mean that Michael Beasley is the answer. I think you kind of hit on it accidentally, but Thibs would never play the guy anyway.

 

I dont think Beasley is necessarily the answer. But I think he, along with a few other players that were in free agency, is worth the gamble, with little to no risk involved. It's just mind boggling to see how the best team has the chance to get much better, yet we are not taking these chances to get a lot better.

[ZoomSlowik]

I am willing to say most everyone here would be delighted if we picked up Beasley. To beat on the point over and over again, our FO is uncreative and lacks the balls to take any risk. If we go out and sign any of these reclamation projects like Oden and Beasley, there's a chance they can provide value for way more than they cost under the right coaching. At worst, you are paying these guys minimum deals.

 

Oh, and if Beasley gets to play with Lebron, Wade, and Bosh, it's not a stretch to think that he can at least shoot 45% and average 18 pts / 40 minutes

f*** no, I wouldn't go anywhere near Beasley. They have several better options and so do the Heat. If he's scoring anywhere close to double digits, they're taking shots from better players.

[Steve9347]

Michael Beasley is a big fat negative, and anyone who argues differently needs to stop watching the NBA (or start watching it much more closely).

[southsider2k5]

Except Curry was a center who can't move and jump over a pile of big macs, and Bill Cartwright left every single clue he has about defense back in his playing days.

 

We also have a guy like can score 18 and give up 30, we call him Carlos Boozer. We've also had guys like Nate Robinson, Marco Belinelli, Kyle Korver, Radmanovic, etc. Heck our third string PF is absolutely a worse defensive talent than Beasley. We didn't mind taking those guys in. We don't need a team full of defensive aces, we have enough to be a great defensive team.

 

Beasley is still only 24, definitely has more defensive potential than Boozer. To think that he can't improve defensively under Thibs tutelage and that he can't be motivated by the drive of Joakim and Derrick, and the Chicago brand of basketball, is frankly ludicrous, and a very lazy excuse for the Bulls not to go pursue these players.

 

Thinking a guy doesn't fit your system and isn't a positive addition to your team is a great reason not to go after them.

[Balta1701]

I dont think Beasley is necessarily the answer. But I think he, along with a few other players that were in free agency, is worth the gamble, with little to no risk involved. It's just mind boggling to see how the best team has the chance to get much better, yet we are not taking these chances to get a lot better.

Weren't the Bulls in to the last on Oden?

 

Part of the problem is that these players aren't dumb either, they know that if they're playing for Thibs they're going to have to work harder to earn playing time, whereas on the Heat they're going to get playing time by being warm bodies and they're going to look better playing next to Lebron.

[thxfrthmmrs]

Michael Beasley is a big fat negative, and anyone who argues differently needs to stop watching the NBA (or start watching it much more closely).

 

And anyone who only reports out of their ass and has as many drunk posts as sober ones should not question other people's basketball knowledge.

 

By the way, here is an interesting tidbit on how small market teams and teams who are strapped financially can make moves to improve themselves. I am not a fan of watching movies with the same ending. And I reiterate, I don't think Beasley is necessarily the right answer for this team. But signing him to a minimum deal, make him earn his playing time, is well worth the use of the roster spot, more so than guys like Patrick Christopher and Kalin Lucas, IMO. I think we need to give some young, talented guys a second chance, whether be it Beasley.

 

Secret to success for Knicks, Griz

New York, Memphis using "Second Draft" approach (PER Diem: Nov. 16, 2012)

Originally Published: November 16, 2012

By John Hollinger | ESPN.com

 

MEMPHIS, Tenn. -- It's something a few people in the league have come to call "The Second Draft" approach: Finding players still in their early 20s, who had enough talent to be high draft picks but for whatever reason have fallen out of favor with their first teams.

 

The idea here is that a lot of the players who will produce excess value for a team, whether via free agency or trade, are players who (A) have talent, (B) are young enough to still get better and © can be acquired cheaply.

 

Not rocket science when you put it that way, but it's been an important cog in how a lot of smart teams have built and maintained their rosters in recent seasons.

 

And, as it turns out, it's a hugely ironic factor in Friday's showdown between the Grizzlies and Knicks. While calling it a Finals preview is perhaps a bit much given that they've played 13 games between them, there is no question that these two teams are playing better than their peers right now.

 

As for the irony -- I don't know if this is where the term originated, but the first "second draft" reference I heard came from Mark Warkentien, then with the Blazers and now ensconced in the Knicks' front office. The Knicks have had some success in this department, too, and we'll talk more about that below.

 

But Memphis? The Grizzlies' entire success this season has been based on a particularly bountiful "second draft" that has turned around a weak bench unit.

 

Memphis' four-man unit of Jerryd Bayless, Wayne Ellington, Quincy Pondexter and Marreese Speights entered the season lightly regarded, and with reason: Each of the four had underwhelmed in previous stops. But underscoring how well they've played, they're a scintillating plus-28 in 63 minutes as a quartet together, according to NBA.com.

 

The Grizzlies have needed it. In the past, their starting five has been the engine of their success, with the bench asked merely to not blow the game for them. This season the starting five has actually been outscored -- a pretty amazing feat for a team that, overall, has outscored opponents by 64 points in the first seven games.

 

Conclusion: The bench is carrying them.

 

That seemed unlikely entering the season, considering where these players had come from -- especially the two wings. Consider:

 

• Bayless, 24, was the 11th overall pick by Indiana in 2008 and went to Portland in a draft-day trade. Bouncing to New Orleans and Toronto while on his rookie contract, he became an unrestricted free agent and the Grizzlies looked to him to solve their backup point guard riddle. So far he's done much more than that: he leads the team in PER. With an opt-out clause in his deal for after this season, Bayless is looking at a big payday if he keeps this up.

 

• Ellington, 24, was the 28th pick by Minnesota in 2009. He played three nondescript seasons in Minnesota without ever achieving a double-digit PER, and seemed headed for the league's reject bin. Memphis needed a backup shooting guard and traded Dante Cunningham to Minnesota for him, and he's been reborn in Memphis -- shooting 51.2 percent, including 45.8 percent on 3s, and averaging nearly a point every two minutes. (Don't weep for Minnesota, though -- Cunningham has been huge for the Wolves. Who knew this trade would actually matter to the Western Conference race?)

 

• Pondexter, 24, was the 26th pick in 2010. After stumbling through his rookie season in New Orleans, the Grizzlies acquired him a year ago when they needed wing depth. He wasn't particularly good in 2011-12, but has taken another step forward this season by improving his shooting stroke from the corners. Always a solid defender, his added shooting prowess gives him enough of a half-court offensive role that he can have an impact with his defense and energy.

 

• Speights, 25, was the 16th pick in 2008 and also came to Memphis a year ago via trade before re-signing with the Grizzlies over the summer. He's been the entire frontcourt "depth" in the first seven games while Darrell Arthur recuperates from an injury, and has provided a solid presence at both positions. His shooting has been a bit off in the early going -- 40.4 percent -- which matters because he shoots nearly every time he gets the ball. However, he's been very solid on the glass and has made progress as a back-line defender.

 

Obviously there are short-term questions about whether this quartet can keep up their hot start, not to mention longer-term ones about whether the Grizzlies could keep this second unit together if they kept it up (all but Pondexter can become free agents, and Memphis is not exactly flush with cap wiggle room at the moment). But if you're looking for a reason for Memphis' impressive start, its "second draft" of those four players has been a huge factor.

 

As for the Knicks, you might call what they're doing more of a "seventh draft" -- Jason Kidd, Marcus Camby, Kurt Thomas and Rasheed Wallace all are half a decade older than anybody on the Grizzlies.

 

But Warkentien hasn't come up empty on the "second draft" mantra from New York, even if the money was invested in slightly older players. Both J.R. Smith and Raymond Felton fit that mantra, and both have played very well in the early part of the season.

 

In Smith's case, Warkentien may be the first exec in history to "second draft" the same player twice. He'd also picked up Smith on the cheap in Denver (for Howard Eisley and two second-round picks, which were used on Aaron Gray and the immortal JamesOn Curry), and after Smith left Denver and spent half a year in China, he again landed on Warkentien's doorstep in New York.

 

Partly, of course, this is because J.R. has done some crazy things that diminish his market value. But the twist on that is that it makes him an inexpensive source of scoring, and given the Knicks' other cap limitations that's important.

 

He's been a huge part of their unbeaten start. Smith is averaging 34 minutes a game off the bench, which I believe would be a record, and leads the team in PER. Not only has he gone absolutely bananas on 3-pointers (14-of-19 thus far), but unbelievably he has 18 assists against just five turnovers. At age 27, the tantalizing possibility exists that he finally gets it.

 

As for Felton, 28, his rehabilitation keyed on two factors: 1) that he's in much better shape, and 2) that he played much better in the second half of last season after a miserable start. His play at the point has deflected criticism of the franchise's decision to let Jeremy Lin walk, and his 19.2 points per 40 minutes blows away his previous career high. He's also shooting 40.7 percent on 3s -- not a strength of his, historically -- and has sharply cut down on the turnovers that plagued him in Portland.

 

Again, we remind everyone that this is a very small sample of games for both teams. Several of the players mentioned above are blowing away their previous career norms, especially in the 3-point shooting category that is the one most prone to short-term flukes. For instance, I can guarantee Smith won't shoot 73.7 percent on 3s all season, nor will Bayless shoot in the 50s or Pondexter and Felton in the 40s. Both New York and Memphis have been flukishly successful on 3s as a team, which is one reason they're a combined 12-1.

 

Instead, zoom out for the bigger picture. In both New York and Memphis, they used a "second draft" mentality to give themselves a chance at success. New York's guys were 27 and Memphis' were 24, but the idea was the same -- finding inexpensive assets that had a chance, given their age, situations and perceived talent level, to exceed their previous norms. Melo and Z-Bo will get the headlines, but it's those secondary roster moves that have kick-started their franchises thus far.

[Quin]

I think everyone is really overplaying the whole weed thing with Beasley. Yes, he is an idiot for getting caught and a big idiot for getting caught more than once but I highly doubt it is affecting him on the floor. There's probably tens of players who binge drink and play hungover and I am sure that it has a much bigger effect than Beasley smoking pot. How do you even know that he never smoked before the NBA? He went to 5 high schools in 4 years. The kid was a trouble maker and I would assume he smoked in high school and college.

 

Not to mention Joakim Noah has been pictured buying a bong in Wrigleyville. Does anyone here doubt his motor?

 

Different guys have different reactions.

 

Beasley became lazy and inactive. Jo has kept his energy.

[2nd_city_saint787]

That was a great deal for us last year. We took a guy who was a defensive liability, a signing no one was too fond of, and it paid off for us big time. Had Robinson not turned out well for us last year? No big deal, there was no commitment. I don't see why we should stop signing those guys this year.

Do we need a better back up big? Yes. Do we need another guy who can score? Hell yea. This is suppose to be the year we can finally contend, yet we stay put. So yes, go sign guy who totally f***ing suck last year to a minimum deal, because he has more talent than our 6 through 10 players, and give him a chance. And oh yea, Thibs is a guy who wouldn't let anyone out of his dog house if he doesn't think they can positively contribute. I don't see how a signing like Beasley or anyone else would hurt the team financially or basket wise.

 

If you honestly think the FO is pulling everything out of their pocket to make this team a championship team this off season, you are highly delusional.

 

 

Dexter Pittman!!!....Only semi kidding.

[southsider2k5]

And anyone who only reports out of their ass and has as many drunk posts as sober ones should not question other people's basketball knowledge.

 

By the way, here is an interesting tidbit on how small market teams and teams who are strapped financially can make moves to improve themselves. I am not a fan of watching movies with the same ending. And I reiterate, I don't think Beasley is necessarily the right answer for this team. But signing him to a minimum deal, make him earn his playing time, is well worth the use of the roster spot, more so than guys like Patrick Christopher and Kalin Lucas, IMO. I think we need to give some young, talented guys a second chance, whether be it Beasley.

 

I don't think anyone has a problem with lottery ticket players. I just have a problem with idea that Beasley is a difference maker of some sort.

[southsider2k5]

Different guys have different reactions.

 

Beasley became lazy and inactive. Jo has kept his energy.

 

I would bet it is more related to how they handle having money than getting high. Some guys think they don't have to work anymore.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I don't think anyone has a problem with lottery ticket players. I just have a problem with idea that Beasley is a difference maker of some sort.

 

On the Bobcats? No. The Heat? A team loaded with quality, take no s*** veterans, good coaching and an elite front office? On a non-guaranteed deal? Most definitely.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Jordan4life