Sox Will Sell; Everyone But Sale and Konerko on Block

[bmags]

I believe that's what I said.

 

1. He was considered a raw athlete.

2. He was not a finished product.

3. Did not focus on baseball.

 

Thus considered a high ceiling low floor daft prospect. No one what they were getting so he had a big potential to bust but could also be a great player.

 

he wasn't responding to you i don't think.

[caulfield12]

I believe that's what I said.

 

1. He was considered a raw athlete.

2. He was not a finished product.

3. Did not focus on baseball.

 

Thus considered a high ceiling low floor daft prospect. No one what they were getting so he had a big potential to bust but could also be a great player.

 

 

This, lol.

[oldsox]

Troncoso did not help his trade value tonight.

[gosox41]

Mitchell wasn't a high ceiling prospect. He was a guy that struggled with contact in college that KW thought would all of the sudden learn how to hit when he got to the pros. He was a high floor prospect because he was close to being finished when he came out of college and you knew what you were getting, good speed, solid defense and power to the gaps, and he struggled to recognize breaking balls. KW was infatuated with athletes when drafting hitters over baseball players.

 

 

I think there is a simple explanation for that.

 

 

Bob

[jjbabins]

That idiot Bernstein was talking about this on the radio a little earlier. He was acting like it was stupid not to trade Sale because "he won't be pitching for a White Sox World Series team anytime soon and the pieces you'd get might be on the next winner."

 

Sale is 24 years old and signed through freaking 2019 to a team-friendly deal? How the f*** does this guy get paid to analyze sports?

 

I'm with Bernstein on this one. Look at it rationally...if the Sox go with a complete rebuilding mode, the EARLIEST they would be relevant would probably be in 5 years, and that's being generous considering how thin the farm system is. So, let's say in those 5 years Sale averages 190 innings a season - that's almost 1,000 innings pitched. Do you think his mechanics can hold up that long and still be as effective as he is today? It's certainly possible that he can, but I wouldn't put my money on it. So, if some GM called Hahn today and is willing to overpay - say 3 or 4 very solid prospects - how do you not entertain that idea?

[flavum]

If the Sox are flat-out saying Chris Sale is untouchable and don't even ask about him, they're dumb.

 

I'm not saying they have to find the best deal and take it, but if they don't even listen, it's the wrong move.

[Buehrle>Wood]

Listening is a waste of time and resources at that point.

[The Ultimate Champion]

If the Sox are flat-out saying Chris Sale is untouchable and don't even ask about him, they're dumb.

 

I'm not saying they have to find the best deal and take it, but if they don't even listen, it's the wrong move.

There is no "listening" process as far as I can tell. If a team wants to offer a bunch of prospects for Sale then you either tell them he's not available or you put some thought into the trade proposal, which of course involves putting your whole organization to work investigating further the players offered. There's no reason to do that when you have other pieces you HAVE to move. Why waste time?

 

If someone calls up the Sox and says "We want Sale, we are prepared to drastically overpay, we'll give you a list of 2-3 players you can't have but go ahead and take any 6 guys out of our organization you like, and we are prepared to make that deal" then sure, you can do some legwork then. But that isn't going to happen. Trade Sale for a bunch of prospects and you're almost certainly going to lose in a big way.

 

Re: Bernstein also, the Sox ARE NOT completely rebuilding. They are looking at moving almost the entire roster not because they WANT to have to replace an entire roster, but because they have almost no depth while facing FA and very few young core pieces. By making the likes of Q/Santiago/Viciedo etc. available it doesn't mean they will trade them, but it means that there is such fluidity here that you might as well take some offers if another team shows it is serious.

 

[The Ultimate Champion]

I think there is a simple explanation for that.

 

 

Bob

I agree wholeheartedly. "Bob" is always the best explanation for everything.

 

Why is the sky blue?

 

Bob

 

Why does the sun rise in the East?

 

Bob

 

Why do the baby seals have to be eaten? Why can't someone come and save them, protect them until they're big enough to fend for themselves?

 

Bob

[The Ultimate Champion]

Listening is a waste of time and resources at that point.

YES!

[The Ultimate Champion]

Dan Hayes of CSNChicago.com spoke with a league source who confirmed Jon Heyman's report from earlier this week that the White Sox are open for business, with the exception of Chris Sale and Paul Konerko. Hayes' source said that in the event the Sox were to make Sale available, he'd fetch an even larger haul than the Padres received for Mat Latos.

 

Derrrrr, you think?

 

Profar + Martin + Grimm + Olt + Beltre + Perez + whoever this board would consider the Rangers best prospect. They get Sale + DeAza back. I'd do that deal, but that's what it would take. Not a post-suspension Edinson Volquez and whatever. Sale is on another level.

[Dunt]

Derrrrr, you think?

 

Profar + Martin + Grimm + Olt + Beltre + Perez + whoever this board would consider the Rangers best prospect. They get Sale + DeAza back. I'd do that deal, but that's what it would take. Not a post-suspension Edinson Volquez and whatever. Sale is on another level.

 

Lol, the Latos deal? Try a Felix like deal for Sale. That is the only possible way he moves.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Here is a good comp, the Tex trade:

 

July 31, 2007: Traded by the Texas Rangers with Ron Mahay to the Atlanta Braves for Beau Jones (minors), Elvis Andrus, Neftali Feliz, Matt Harrison and Jarrod Saltalamacchia.

 

Sale is more of a difference maker than Tex was even then. Sale also has multiple years on his contract, whereas Tex had 1.5 seasons left. At the time of the deal it was looking like the last year that Bobby Cox & Schuerholtz were going to spend together and they wanted to win. At the time the Braves felt they were probably going to lose that deal on the talent end, and maybe it would end up a major mistake.

 

If you deal Chris Sale you need to have the team dealing for him feeling exactly the same way about that deal as the Braves did when they pulled the trigger on the Teixeira deal. That's the kind of return you need.

 

The Latos deal is like the worth of half of one of Sale's massive 32 testicles. If I'm Hahn & someone proposes that deal to me I send Samuel L Jackson to go visit him in his apartment & have him question that guy why he happens to think I'm a b****.

 

Edit: BTW I can't make a post without at least one glaring typo. Here I was going to edit this to change the quantity of Sale's testicles from "32" to "2" but thinking about it, I'm just going to leave this typo, it's far more accurate. Chris Sale has at least 32 testicles IMO.

Edited June 29, 2013 by The Ultimate Champion

[Dick Allen]

I'm with Bernstein on this one. Look at it rationally...if the Sox go with a complete rebuilding mode, the EARLIEST they would be relevant would probably be in 5 years, and that's being generous considering how thin the farm system is. So, let's say in those 5 years Sale averages 190 innings a season - that's almost 1,000 innings pitched. Do you think his mechanics can hold up that long and still be as effective as he is today? It's certainly possible that he can, but I wouldn't put my money on it. So, if some GM called Hahn today and is willing to overpay - say 3 or 4 very solid prospects - how do you not entertain that idea?

I agree, but it all depends on what exactly they are planning. If they are planning a Cubs-like rebuild, It makes zero sense not to trade Sale. What is the guarantee Sale will be a stud in 4 or 5 years when they would play games that mattered again.? Just look at John Danks. 5 years ago he was a 23 year old stud pitcher. Now, people don't understand why the Sox extended him. I would think Sale has just as good of a chance of getting hurt. Cash him in for studs if you are tearing it down. If you are planning on competing, then you don't pay attention unless someone wants to blow you away. As Hawk said, except for Michael Jordan, everyone is available in a trade.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Dick Allen

[Jake]

Here is a good comp, the Tex trade:

 

July 31, 2007: Traded by the Texas Rangers with Ron Mahay to the Atlanta Braves for Beau Jones (minors), Elvis Andrus, Neftali Feliz, Matt Harrison and Jarrod Saltalamacchia.

 

Sale is more of a difference maker than Tex was even then. Sale also has multiple years on his contract, whereas Tex had 1.5 seasons left. At the time of the deal it was looking like the last year that Bobby Cox & Schuerholtz were going to spend together and they wanted to win. At the time the Braves felt they were probably going to lose that deal on the talent end, and maybe it would end up a major mistake.

 

If you deal Chris Sale you need to have the team dealing for him feeling exactly the same way about that deal as the Braves did when they pulled the trigger on the Teixeira deal. That's the kind of return you need.

 

The Latos deal is like the worth of half of one of Sale's massive 32 testicles. If I'm Hahn & someone proposes that deal to me I send Samuel L Jackson to go visit him in his apartment & have him question that guy why he happens to think I'm a b****.

 

Edit: BTW I can't make a post without at least one glaring typo. Here I was going to edit this to change the quantity of Sale's testicles from "32" to "2" but thinking about it, I'm just going to leave this typo, it's far more accurate. Chris Sale has at least 32 testicles IMO.

 

I don't hate that comparison, but Tex would be considered far more of a sure thing since he lacks the catastrophic injury risk of a starting pitcher. Might not be an apples to apples comparison

 

[Eminor3rd]

I'm with Bernstein on this one. Look at it rationally...if the Sox go with a complete rebuilding mode, the EARLIEST they would be relevant would probably be in 5 years, and that's being generous considering how thin the farm system is. So, let's say in those 5 years Sale averages 190 innings a season - that's almost 1,000 innings pitched. Do you think his mechanics can hold up that long and still be as effective as he is today? It's certainly possible that he can, but I wouldn't put my money on it. So, if some GM called Hahn today and is willing to overpay - say 3 or 4 very solid prospects - how do you not entertain that idea?

 

The problem is that there's no reason at all to assume we're five years from contention. How can you even plan for more than five years out? If you can't imagine a 24 year old will still be young enough to contribute the next time you have a shot to contend, you're saying that no one in your entire organization will save your team at any point. If you're talking about guys more than five years away, you're talking about guys in high school and college.

[beautox]

The problem is that there's no reason at all to assume we're five years from contention. How can you even plan for more than five years out? If you can't imagine a 24 year old will still be young enough to contribute the next time you have a shot to contend, you're saying that no one in your entire organization will save your team at any point. If you're talking about guys more than five years away, you're talking about guys in high school and college.

I agree. There is no reason to trade Sale. Going into this deadline and offseason the sox need to move Peavy and Axelrod and lock up Santiago and Quintana to team friendly deals. I'm sure if they offered something to Santiago he would bite on it instantly based off his character. As for people calling Dank's contract an albatross, thats a joke he's 28 and will be 31 when this deal runs its course and quite frankly i think we haven't even begun to see what he is capable of it wouldn't surprise me over the course of the next three years he has another 5WAR season. The sox are going to be shedding so much payroll this offseason and next, now is the time to lock up our future core and see what we have within this organization. Having said all that they just need a league average offense and they can be back in the thick of it with their pitching. Two year maximum rebuild as we wait on Thompson, Hawkins, Anderson, Phegley and Johnson. If two of them pan out at the major league level we'll be doing great.

[jjbabins]

The problem is that there's no reason at all to assume we're five years from contention. How can you even plan for more than five years out? If you can't imagine a 24 year old will still be young enough to contribute the next time you have a shot to contend, you're saying that no one in your entire organization will save your team at any point. If you're talking about guys more than five years away, you're talking about guys in high school and college.

 

That's exactly what's wrong with this organization, they haven't drafted and developed anyone that can save them in the near future. You have bad and/or aging players making too much money relative to their performance and no one in the system to step in. So, if Hahn decides to completely rebuild today and is able to trade Rios, Dunn, Peavy, Crain, Thornton, etc., do you honestly think that with the players he gets in return combined with what the Sox currently have in the system, that they will be competitive in the next couple years? Doesn't seem likely

[The Ultimate Champion]

That's exactly what's wrong with this organization, they haven't drafted and developed anyone that can save them in the near future. You have bad and/or aging players making too much money relative to their performance and no one in the system to step in. So, if Hahn decides to completely rebuild today and is able to trade Rios, Dunn, Peavy, Crain, Thornton, etc., do you honestly think that with the players he gets in return combined with what the Sox currently have in the system, that they will be competitive in the next couple years? Doesn't seem likely

If they do their jobs properly, yes.

 

You acquire a ton of prospects/unproven MLB players and you add that to what you have in-house.

 

In the end you look to pull out 4-5 position players including the likes of Viciedo/Flowers/Gillaspie who are already here trying to stick, you get 1-2 starters including Johnson, and 2-3 guys in the bullpen. You supplement that with FA signings, some of the bargain variety, and then you take some of your prospects and look to trade them off for proven players on good contracts to round out your team.

 

If you can't pull that off in 2-3 years your whole FO should be fired. Expecting that to take 5 years is not only expecting a massive failure, it's also inviting and allowing that massive failure. You get dumb & start dumping all your good young players for prospects and you end up like the Mariners, the Orioles forever until last year, the Pirates for years, the Tigers for years, the Royals forever until they finally tried to improve themselves last year, etc.

Edited June 30, 2013 by The Ultimate Champion

[Dick Allen]

If they do their jobs properly, yes.

 

You acquire a ton of prospects/unproven MLB players and you add that to what you have in-house.

 

In the end you look to pull out 4-5 position players including the likes of Viciedo/Flowers/Gillaspie who are already here trying to stick, you get 1-2 starters including Johnson, and 2-3 guys in the bullpen. You supplement that with FA signings, some of the bargain variety, and then you take some of your prospects and look to trade them off for proven players on good contracts to round out your team.

 

If you can't pull that off in 2-3 years your whole FO should be fired. Expecting that to take 5 years is not only expecting a massive failure, it's also inviting and allowing that massive failure. You get dumb & start dumping all your good young players for prospects and you end up like the Mariners, the Orioles forever until last year, the Pirates for years, the Tigers for years, the Royals forever until they finally tried to improve themselves last year, etc.

Name a team that has bottomed out, traded their best players and were back in contention in 2 or 3 years? This isn't the NBA. Draft picks rarely provide immediate help. The Sox will be lucky, incredibly lucky,if the guy they pick next June , even if they get the first pick,is really contibuting in 2016.

[caulfield12]

Name a team that has bottomed out, traded their best players and were back in contention in 2 or 3 years? This isn't the NBA. Draft picks rarely provide immediate help. The Sox will be lucky, incredibly lucky,if the guy they pick next June , even if they get the first pick,is really contibuting in 2016.

 

 

It has to be a collegiate pitcher or reliever.

 

 

Ventura/Thomas, from a hitting perspective, are once-a-generation anomalies. Beckham got up to the big leagues about as fast as possible for the present day-and-age. Chris Sale, obviously, fits here too. Mark Buehrle, based on minor league results, not draft position.

 

But look at someone like Porcello, who is still struggling...a lot like Jon Garland, too good at too young an age for the minors but not refined enough for success at the big league level.

 

Then you have the relievers who move in a hurry, guys like Scott Radinsky, Boone Logan, Santos, maybe Daniel Webb will be the next.

Edited June 30, 2013 by caulfield12

[Paulstar]

That's exactly what's wrong with this organization, they haven't drafted and developed anyone that can save them in the near future. You have bad and/or aging players making too much money relative to their performance and no one in the system to step in. So, if Hahn decides to completely rebuild today and is able to trade Rios, Dunn, Peavy, Crain, Thornton, etc., do you honestly think that with the players he gets in return combined with what the Sox currently have in the system, that they will be competitive in the next couple years? Doesn't seem likely

If you can at least get two or three solid contributors back for 2014 in firesale trades, and then use the 40+ million in open salary space to sign the right guys in free agency, it's possible this team could compete as soon as next year.

 

I guess it depends on what the owners want to do. Either completely cut costs and go with nothing but rookies in 2014, which is easily one of the worst things to do in this situation, or keep the team salary around the same as it has been and make aggressive pitches at some of the top FA's (McCann, Morneau, Morales, Morse, Hart, Granderson, Pence, Utley, etc.).

[caulfield12]

If you can at least get two or three solid contributors back for 2014 in firesale trades, and then use the 40+ million in open salary space to sign the right guys in free agency, it's possible this team could compete as soon as next year.

 

I guess it depends on what the owners want to do. Either completely cut costs and go with nothing but rookies in 2014, which is easily one of the worst things to do in this situation, or keep the team salary around the same as it has been and make aggressive pitches at some of the top FA's (McCann, Morneau, Morales, Morse, Hart, Granderson, Pence, Utley, etc.).

 

 

McCann is REALLY struggling against LHP'ers and with injuries. I think he's reached the point where the dollars and years will be too risky, based on his name/reputation moreso than the current reality of him.

 

Pence is exactly the kind of player we DO need, the anti-DeAza, but not on the downside AS MUCH as say an Erstad or Kotsay.

 

Utley's playing too well right now and will be prohibitively expensively. I wouldn't be shocked if he ended up staying in Philly.

Edited June 30, 2013 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

It has to be a collegiate pitcher or reliever.

 

 

Ventura/Thomas, from a hitting perspective, are once-a-generation anomalies. Beckham got up to the big leagues about as fast as possible for the present day-and-age. Chris Sale, obviously, fits here too.

 

But look at someone like Porcello, who is still struggling...a lot like Jon Garland, too good at too young an age for the minors but not refined enough for success at the big league level.

 

Then you have the relievers who move in a hurry, guys like Scott Radinsky, Boone Logan, Santos, maybe Daniel Webb will be the next.

Ventura offensively didn't really contribute until 1991. Frank was great from the start, which is rare. Beckham started fast, but many have wanted him gone for quite a while. To think the Sox can get rid of all their good players except Sale and think in 2 or 3 years they should be contenders or someone isn't doing their job properly is BS. It's not like they have MLB ready guys in the minors right now, and once players get here it takes time to get their wings if they get them at all.

 

 

 

[Paulstar]

McCann is a risk, but he has proven himself to be really good hitter and his struggles this year probably have more to with him being not 100% yet. He is definitely destined for the AL and if he can be put in a situation where he catches maybe 3 out of 5 games and DH the other games, I think you can definitely see his offensive production go back up. But with him being one of the premier catchers in the game, a team with deep pockets could easily force his salary to an unreasonable range for the Sox.

 

Also, I wouldnt rule out a return of Pierzynski.

 

Utley has two major things going against him in free agency. His age and I cant even remember the last time he stayed healthy for a whole year. The way he is playing this year won't make him cheap, but I dont see him breaking the bank either.