Jesse Crain dealt to Tampa Bay

[Balta1701]

Some great stuff in there, and I agree you can't say with any reasonable certainty when or how or why Crain got injured.

 

I know you're a lawyer...don't you think I can make a pretty good case that if you believe Crain was overworked, and you stated that you believe he might have been, that that increased the likelihood of him suffering an injury? While any one pitch might be the one that causes an injury, that doesn't mean that you throw out all the other contributing factors. Too much work leads to fatigue which often leads to bad mechanics which increases the chances of sustaining injury.

 

To me, the argument isn't whether he was overworked, but rather, was the rationale or reasoning for his frequent usage justifiable? I would argue yes. He was in the final year of his deal (likely no future with our club). He wasn't a young, developing player. We desperately needed him to attempt to stay in contention. RV did what he had to to try and keep the ship afloat.

 

The intention was never to use Crain as an asset to trade until it was too late.

I get this too, but the one point Marty could make here is that by June, it was already pretty clear this season was down the toilet, particularly by mid-june. Another inning by Crain wasn't making the difference for the season by the time June 21 rolled around.

[iamshack]

I get this too, but the one point Marty could make here is that by June, it was already pretty clear this season was down the toilet, particularly by mid-june. Another inning by Crain wasn't making the difference for the season by the time June 21 rolled around.

Oh agreed. s***, look how we used Peavy Thursday.

 

Robin definitely seems to be a guy that is going to just let guys go if they say they are good...

 

I am not entirely opposed to Marty's point here; I think Robin's a bit reckless in the way he uses his pitchers. But generally I think it's for the right reasons.

[CyAcosta41]

Some great stuff in there, and I agree you can't say with any reasonable certainty when or how or why Crain got injured.

 

I know you're a lawyer...don't you think I can make a pretty good case that if you believe Crain was overworked, and you stated that you believe he might have been, that that increased the likelihood of him suffering an injury? While any one pitch might be the one that causes an injury, that doesn't mean that you throw out all the other contributing factors. Too much work leads to fatigue which often leads to bad mechanics which increases the chances of sustaining injury.

 

To me, the argument isn't whether he was overworked, but rather, was the rationale or reasoning for his frequent usage justifiable? I would argue yes. He was in the final year of his deal (likely no future with our club). He wasn't a young, developing player. We desperately needed him to attempt to stay in contention. RV did what he had to to try and keep the ship afloat.

 

The intention was never to use Crain as an asset to trade until it was too late.

 

You're a lawyer too, right?

 

Then you probably noticed that I hedged my bet. It's not up on my screen right now, but I think I said that "I believe that he was borderline overworked" [emphasis added]. I used the hedge because while I do think he was used more than I would have liked him to be used in a perfect baseball world (and we all know the 2013 White Sox are existing in far from a perfect baseball world). Crain's long and short term history suggests his shoulder gets fatigued. We can debate all day long whether this happens from getting thrown out there too many consecutive days, or whether it's from too many pitches in any given outing, or whether it's nothing more than the nature of Jesse Crain being basically a little guy with a max-effort delivery who throws the heck out of the baseball. But, I do think most Sox fans have been aware that we need to keep an eye on Crain.

 

As you suggest -- correctly, I think -- whether his injury was foreseeable or not, Ventura and Cooper had little choice other than to risk it. You play the game to win. Crain, when healthy, was having a monster season. Actually, an incredible season. And as far as the set-up guys go, early, other than some decent work by Lindstrom in relatively low-leverage situations, Crain was the only guy we could count on. Jones was awful early in the season; Thornton was what he now is - the ghost of Matt Thornton past. We needed Jesse out there. He did the job. Repeatedly. Even his teammates were in awe of what the guy was doing.

 

Did "possibly" being overworked a bit (but I don't go so far as to say that he was ridden unreasonably hard) add to the likelihood of fatigue or injury? Maybe. It might have. But you can say something similar each time Chris Sale has to throw high leverage pitches in the 7th or 8th, or each of the many times that Addison Reed has a +20 pitch one inning. That's inherent in being a big league pitcher. It's all part of the mix and we only know for sure after the fact. But the Sox paid Jesse Crain to pitch. And the "overworking" - if there was any - happened while the Sox were still sniffing around .500, in any case long before anyone was truly worried about Jesse Crain being a prime trading chip.

 

I can't blame Ventura, Coop, or Hahn one bit for Crain's fatigue/injury. Actually, I'm a lot more pissed about Robin bringing Peavy out for the 8th yesterday -- because HERE you have a guy coming off of an injury, with a good game already under his belt, and you unnecessarily and unreasonably put a then known trading chip at risk with absolutely nothing to be gained and with so much to lose!

 

Good discussion Shack!

[Marty34]

Oh agreed. s***, look how we used Peavy Thursday.

 

Robin definitely seems to be a guy that is going to just let guys go if they say they are good...

 

I am not entirely opposed to Marty's point here; I think Robin's a bit reckless in the way he uses his pitchers. But generally I think it's for the right reasons.

 

I believe smart organizations curtail Crain's usage understanding his value lies in what he returns you in a trade. That's what I find troubling here.

[Balta1701]

I believe smart organizations curtail Crain's usage understanding his value lies in what he returns you in a trade. That's what I find troubling here.

I can't think of a single organization I can ever remember obviously doing this. Can you give a couple examples?

[iamshack]

You're a lawyer too, right?

 

Then you probably noticed that I hedged my bet. It's not up on my screen right now, but I think I said that "I believe that he was borderline overworked" [emphasis added]. I used the hedge because while I do think he was used more than I would have liked him to be used in a perfect baseball world (and we all know the 2013 White Sox are existing in far from a perfect baseball world). Crain's long and short term history suggests his shoulder gets fatigued. We can debate all day long whether this happens from getting thrown out there too many consecutive days, or whether it's from too many pitches in any given outing, or whether it's nothing more than the nature of Jesse Crain being basically a little guy with a max-effort delivery who throws the heck out of the baseball. But, I do think most Sox fans have been aware that we need to keep an eye on Crain.

 

As you suggest -- correctly, I think -- whether his injury was foreseeable or not, Ventura and Cooper had little choice other than to risk it. You play the game to win. Crain, when healthy, was having a monster season. Actually, an incredible season. And as far as the set-up guys go, early, other than some decent work by Lindstrom in relatively low-leverage situations, Crain was the only guy we could count on. Jones was awful early in the season; Thornton was what he now is - the ghost of Matt Thornton past. We needed Jesse out there. He did the job. Repeatedly. Even his teammates were in awe of what the guy was doing.

 

Did "possibly" being overworked a bit (but I don't go so far as to say that he was ridden unreasonably hard) add to the likelihood of fatigue or injury? Maybe. It might have. But you can say something similar each time Chris Sale has to throw high leverage pitches in the 7th or 8th, or each of the many times that Addison Reed has a +20 pitch one inning. That's inherent in being a big league pitcher. It's all part of the mix and we only know for sure after the fact. But the Sox paid Jesse Crain to pitch. And the "overworking" - if there was any - happened while the Sox were still sniffing around .500, in any case long before anyone was truly worried about Jesse Crain being a prime trading chip.

 

I can't blame Ventura, Coop, or Hahn one bit for Crain's fatigue/injury. Actually, I'm a lot more pissed about Robin bringing Peavy out for the 8th yesterday -- because HERE you have a guy coming off of an injury, with a good game already under his belt, and you unnecessarily and unreasonably put a then known trading chip at risk with absolutely nothing to be gained and with so much to lose!

 

Good discussion Shack!

Thanks Cy...I think we chatted briefly before because I enjoyed your handle...I went to a bar/restaurant a few years back in Houston named Cy Acosta's...he was a wrestler, correct?

 

Let me ask you this...do you think that just because actual harm doesn't always occur by this sort of usage, it's therefore acceptable?

 

Let's say I'm using a product incorrectly, but in 95% of the cases I misuse it, nothing bad happens. Since harm does not occur every time, does that only make the practice of misuse unacceptable when harm does occur?

[iamshack]

I can't think of a single organization I can ever remember obviously doing this. Can you give a couple examples?

That would be pretty difficult to prove, don't you think?

[Balta1701]

That would be pretty difficult to prove, don't you think?

Yeah, but so is "no organization would so obviously overwork a guy on the trading block by having him throw 60 pitches over a couple days in late June". If someone's going to claim that a smart organization curtails a guys use late in June/early in July, there ought to be tons of examples since relief pitchers get traded every year.

 

Otherwise it would be flat out irresponsible to claim that smart organizations would do that if there are zero examples, wouldn't you agree?

[Marty34]

Yeah, but so is "no organization would so obviously overwork a guy on the trading block by having him throw 60 pitches over a couple days in late June". If someone's going to claim that a smart organization curtails a guys use late in June/early in July, there ought to be tons of examples since relief pitchers get traded every year.

 

Otherwise it would be flat out irresponsible to claim that smart organizations would do that if there are zero examples, wouldn't you agree?

 

I was trying to give the Sox the benefit of the doubt. Dumb organizations pitch Crain the way the Sox did in June.

[Balta1701]

I was trying to give the Sox the benefit of the doubt. Dumb organizations pitch Crain the way the Sox did in June.

So you have other examples? Or you're BSing?

 

I'm legitimately asking. Here's your chance to prove your case. A couple examples of smart organizations doing what you say smart organizations do.

[Marty34]

So you have other examples? Or you're BSing?

 

I'm legitimately asking. Here's your chance to prove your case. A couple examples of smart organizations doing what you say smart organizations do.

 

Koji Uehara pitched 4 innings in two weeks before he was traded to Texas for Chris Davis and Tommy Hunter.

[Jake]

Koji Uehara pitched 4 innings in two weeks before he was traded to Texas for Chris Davis and Tommy Hunter.

 

We're talking about an appearance difference from the rate Crain was pitching.

[Balta1701]

Koji Uehara pitched 4 innings in two weeks before he was traded to Texas for Chris Davis and Tommy Hunter.

He pitched 12 games in June and 11 games in July, and by selectively saying "2 weeks" you exclude the fact that he pitched the 2 games before that right out of the AS break that year. Including a 2 inning stint on the 15th. He threw 13.1 innings in June and 12 in July, with July having the AS break. In May he threw 13 innings in 12 outings, almost the exact same usage. They certainly didn't start slowing him down mid-June, and his July usage is very similar to his June usage and his May usage.

 

If slowing down his usage is something smart teams do, I don't see it there? I mean, you'd be screaming about that 2 inning outing on the 15th. He threw 45 pitches total while pitching in in 3 straight games from July 15-July 17. He even had a 31 pitch, 2 inning outing in late June.

[Marty34]

He pitched 12 games in June and 11 games in July, and by selectively saying "2 weeks" you exclude the fact that he pitched the 2 games before that right out of the AS break that year. Including a 2 inning stint on the 15th. He threw 13.1 innings in June and 12 in July, with July having the AS break. In May he threw 13 innings in 12 outings, almost the exact same usage. They certainly didn't start slowing him down mid-June, and his July usage is very similar to his June usage and his May usage.

 

If slowing down his usage is something smart teams do, I don't see it there? I mean, you'd be screaming about that 2 inning outing on the 15th. He threw 45 pitches total while pitching in in 3 straight games from July 15-July 17. He even had a 31 pitch, 2 inning outing in late June.

 

It's clear that he was being handled with kid gloves when they knew he was going.

[Jake]

It's clear that he was being handled with kid gloves when they knew he was going.

 

Yeah, if you get rid of your bootleg stats like "pitch count" and "innings pitched" and "appearances," you can tell.

[Balta1701]

It's clear that he was being handled with kid gloves when they knew he was going.

He actually threw more innings in June of that year than Crain did this year.

[Marty34]

He actually threw more innings in June of that year than Crain did this year.

 

So what.

[Balta1701]

So what.

So I can't see anything in his record that remotely suggests that Baltimore did why you said the Sox should have done and cut back on his innings 8 weeks before the deadline.

[CyAcosta41]

Thanks Cy...I think we chatted briefly before because I enjoyed your handle...I went to a bar/restaurant a few years back in Houston named Cy Acosta's...he was a wrestler, correct?

 

Let me ask you this...do you think that just because actual harm doesn't always occur by this sort of usage, it's therefore acceptable?

 

Let's say I'm using a product incorrectly, but in 95% of the cases I misuse it, nothing bad happens. Since harm does not occur every time, does that only make the practice of misuse unacceptable when harm does occur?

 

Shack ...

 

A wrestler? Oh no, man. The great Cecilio ("Cy") Acosta was a Mexican relief pitcher who joined the Sox in June of 1972 as part of that really enjoyable 1972 Sox team, that featured 20 year olds Terry Forster and Rich Gossage in the bullpen. Loved that team and Cy Acosta (good old #41) has long been one of those "blast from the past names" that some of my contemporaries enjoy hearing. His baseball card is my avatar! That's no wrestler, man!!!

 

As for your post, I think you're misunderstanding me. You're suggesting with language like "this sort of usage" or "using a product incorrectly" that I'm implying that Crain was used incorrectly. I think nothing of the sort. So I never get to your rhetorical question of "does that only make the practice of misuse unacceptable when harm does occur."

 

When I say that Crain was perhaps borderline overused, I mean that he was on the cusp of being used more than I might have preferred (given factors relevant to Crain's career). I simply wish circumstances had been different so that we had the option to "baby" him a little. Unfortunately: (a) there really wasn't a way around it since we've got to try and win games during that May time when he was used so much, and (b) it wasn't as if he was used in an unreasonable or excessive way, instead he was used slightly more, just minimally more, than I might have preferred. That's baseball. Gotta play the game with the players on the roster. Cy, the Goose, and that "Fat tub of Goo" weren't available!

 

Personally, I think going back in time and looking at the past from what we know now (Jesse being injured; this Sox team, essentially sucking) is a great disservice to Ventura or Coop, UNLESS they used him wayyyyyyyyy too much, in a way that was way out of the bell-curve. And they didn't. In my opinion, most of his heavy use happened in May, as they battled to get to .500 in very late May. He barely pitched during the 9 game losing streak because he wasn't needed. Then he pitched a few games ... was off to give his arm a week breather ... pitched a few more games ... and then the DL stint. He's a paid, professional pitcher that was part of a bullpen. His manager and pitching coach leaned on him, but in a way that you need to be able to lean on a quality professional. Sure, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, had we known that his arm wouldn't hold up, then we might have babied him. However, had we done that, professional scouts would have also recognized that they couldn't rely on a pitcher like that anyway, so poof, there goes his trade value as well. Damned if you do; damned if you don't.

 

It's unfortunate for Jesse that his injury likely curtailed his career year; it's unfortunate for the White Sox that his injury happened when it all but eliminated any real trade value (although, I still think someone will take a flyer on him on a PTBNL type trade); but no way do I think anyone is "guilty" of mis or overusing him.

Edited July 28, 2013 by CyAcosta41

[iamshack]

Shack ...

 

A wrestler? Oh no, man. The great Cecilio ("Cy") Acosta was a Mexican relief pitcher who joined the Sox in June of 1972 as part of that really enjoyable 1972 Sox team, that featured 20 year olds Terry Forster and Rich Gossage in the bullpen. Loved that team and Cy Acosta (good old #41) has long been one of those "blast from the past names" that some of my contemporaries enjoy hearing. His baseball card is my avatar! That's no wrestler, man!!!

 

As for your post, I think you're misunderstanding me. You're suggesting with language like "this sort of usage" or "using a product incorrectly" that I'm implying that Crain was used incorrectly. I think nothing of the sort. So I never get to your rhetorical question of "does that only make the practice of misuse unacceptable when harm does occur."

 

When I say that Crain was perhaps borderline overused, I mean that he was on the cusp of being used more than I might have preferred (given factors relevant to Crain's career). I simply wish circumstances had been different so that we had the option to "baby" him a little. Unfortunately: (a) there really wasn't a way around it since we've got to try and win games during that May time when he was used so much, and (b) it wasn't as if he was used in an unreasonable or excessive way, instead he was slightly more, just minimally more, than I might have preferred. That's baseball. Gotta play the game with the players on the roster. Cy, the Goose, and that "Fat tub of Goo" weren't available!

 

Personally, I think going back in time and looking at the past from what we know now (Jesse being injured; this Sox team, essentially sucking) is a great disservice to Ventura or Coop, UNLESS they used him wayyyyyyyyy too much, in a way that was way out of the bell-curve. And they didn't. In my opinion, most of his heavy use happened in May, as they battled to get to .500 in very late May. He barely pitched during the 9 game losing streak because he wasn't needed. Then he pitched a few games ... was off to give his arm a week breather ... pitched a few more games ... and then the DL stint. He's a paid, professional pitcher that was part of a bullpen. His manager and pitching coach leaned on him, but in a way that you need to be able to lean on a quality professional. Sure, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, had we known that his arm wouldn't hold up, then we might have babied him. However, had we done that, professional scouts would have also recognized that they couldn't rely on a pitcher like that anyway, so poof, there goes his trade value as well. Damned if you do; damned if you don't.

 

It's unfortunate for Jesse that his injury likely curtailed his career year; it's unfortunate for the White Sox that his injury happened when it all but eliminated any real trade value (although, I still think someone will take a flyer on him on a PTBNL type trade); but no way do I think anyone is "guilty" of mis or overusing him.

 

Cy...my bad! I was thinking of Cyclone Anaya!

 

[Dick Allen]

Throughout his career he's been a 60 inning pitcher and as such needs to be handled with great care. They very fact that he landed on the DL with a "tired" shoulder tells you he was overworked.

60 innings a year and averages about a month on the DL. Guess what 60/5=? That is what he averages a month, which is what he is averaging this year. Where was it reported he has a tired shoulder? Give me a link.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

Cy...my bad! I was thinking of Cyclone Anaya!

There was a wrestler back in the late '60's/early '70s named Sandy Acosta.

 

Anyway as to the Crain situation, if no team is willing to take a chance and give the Sox something halfway decent for him even though he is currently on the DL, I'd rather the Sox just keep him until the end of the year and get nothing for him rather than give him away for peanuts to a contender because they feel they have the Sox over a barrel. If a contender wants one of the better relief pitchers in baseball when healthy to make a run at the playoffs make them pay for it or let them regret it when they miss the post season for lack of one more good bullpen arm.

[CyAcosta41]

There was a wrestler back in the late '60's/early '70s named Sandy Acosta.

 

Anyway as to the Crain situation, if no team is willing to take a chance and give the Sox something halfway decent for him even though he is currently on the DL, I'd rather the Sox just keep him until the end of the year and get nothing for him rather than give him away for peanuts to a contender because they feel they have the Sox over a barrel. If a contender wants one of the better relief pitchers in baseball when healthy to make a run at the playoffs make them pay for it or let them regret it when they miss the post season for lack of one more good bullpen arm.

 

Agreed, man.

 

But I think this one is all on Rick. Here's where you have to set-up the auction. Let every contending team know that he is being offered to every other contending team as a last minute trade deadline deal. Best offer gets him. "You don't want to tell your fan base that you missed out on an arm like Crain for the stretch run because you wouldn't give up even one quality prospect, would you?"

 

I think we'll get one decent taker. If not, then, absolutely, no point being anybody's pushover.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Shack ...

 

A wrestler? Oh no, man. The great Cecilio ("Cy") Acosta was a Mexican relief pitcher who joined the Sox in June of 1972 as part of that really enjoyable 1972 Sox team, that featured 20 year olds Terry Forster and Rich Gossage in the bullpen. Loved that team and Cy Acosta (good old #41) has long been one of those "blast from the past names" that some of my contemporaries enjoy hearing. His baseball card is my avatar! That's no wrestler, man!!!

 

As for your post, I think you're misunderstanding me. You're suggesting with language like "this sort of usage" or "using a product incorrectly" that I'm implying that Crain was used incorrectly. I think nothing of the sort. So I never get to your rhetorical question of "does that only make the practice of misuse unacceptable when harm does occur."

 

When I say that Crain was perhaps borderline overused, I mean that he was on the cusp of being used more than I might have preferred (given factors relevant to Crain's career). I simply wish circumstances had been different so that we had the option to "baby" him a little. Unfortunately: (a) there really wasn't a way around it since we've got to try and win games during that May time when he was used so much, and (b) it wasn't as if he was used in an unreasonable or excessive way, instead he was used slightly more, just minimally more, than I might have preferred. That's baseball. Gotta play the game with the players on the roster. Cy, the Goose, and that "Fat tub of Goo" weren't available!

 

Personally, I think going back in time and looking at the past from what we know now (Jesse being injured; this Sox team, essentially sucking) is a great disservice to Ventura or Coop, UNLESS they used him wayyyyyyyyy too much, in a way that was way out of the bell-curve. And they didn't. In my opinion, most of his heavy use happened in May, as they battled to get to .500 in very late May. He barely pitched during the 9 game losing streak because he wasn't needed. Then he pitched a few games ... was off to give his arm a week breather ... pitched a few more games ... and then the DL stint. He's a paid, professional pitcher that was part of a bullpen. His manager and pitching coach leaned on him, but in a way that you need to be able to lean on a quality professional. Sure, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, had we known that his arm wouldn't hold up, then we might have babied him. However, had we done that, professional scouts would have also recognized that they couldn't rely on a pitcher like that anyway, so poof, there goes his trade value as well. Damned if you do; damned if you don't.

 

It's unfortunate for Jesse that his injury likely curtailed his career year; it's unfortunate for the White Sox that his injury happened when it all but eliminated any real trade value (although, I still think someone will take a flyer on him on a PTBNL type trade); but no way do I think anyone is "guilty" of mis or overusing him.

 

I was going to tell Shack earlier you meant Cy Acosta . I'm probably one of the few here who remember him and nice reference to Terry Forster and his subsequent appearance on was it Letterman or Carson back then ?

[South Side Fireworks Man]

I was going to tell Shack earlier you meant Cy Acosta . I'm probably one of the few here who remember him and nice reference to Terry Forster and his subsequent appearance on was it Letterman or Carson back then ?

I remember Cy Acosta as well. He was a favorite of mine.