Dick Allen Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jul 26, 2013 -> 05:49 PM) In 2012, he was hurt from April 20 to May 16 and June 23 to July 23. That's a third of the season, hardly a far comparison. Was it from overwork? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 26, 2013 Author Share Posted July 26, 2013 QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jul 26, 2013 -> 04:54 PM) He faced 152 batters this year before getting injured. He faced 194 all of '12. If would have never gotten injured he would have been on pace for just under 300 batters face. Roughly 150% more than they year prior. Considering he missed time last year, that isn't a true annual comparison. Looking back to prior years he was usually in the 270 range, with early career highs of 326 and 325. His first year with the Sox, pre-Ventura, he pitched 65.1 innings and faced 268. Reality is that he wasn't really at a high pace for himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 You may want to check Crain's gamelogs before you make outrageous claims of him being overworked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jul 26, 2013 -> 06:46 PM) I agree with you but the conversation I was replying to DA had chose to ignore those injuries. I'm not, but are those injuries from overwork, and why hadn't one person said anything about Crain being overworked until now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jul 26, 2013 -> 05:04 PM) People had been saying it when he was being overworked, when he got injured and now. Double plus good... and true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 Why is Coop still considered a genius? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 26, 2013 -> 11:08 PM) Why is Coop still considered a genius? Good question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buehrle>Wood Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 05:10 AM) Good question. It's a horrible question. Do we have three young starters all exceeded anyones wildest expectations for each of them? Does he still have an amazing track record? Did he really make a guy from the Windy City Thunderbolts look competent in MLB for a couple months? Holy s***! The case for Cooper has never been stronger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heads22 Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Jul 26, 2013 -> 11:28 PM) It's a horrible question. Do we have three young starters all exceeded anyones wildest expectations for each of them? Does he still have an amazing track record? Did he really make a guy from the Windy City Thunderbolts look competent in MLB for a couple months? Holy s***! The case for Cooper has never been stronger. Chris Sale: Cy Young caliber pitcher Jake Peavy: Most sought after pitcher in market Jose Quintana: 5-3 with a 3.55 ERA. He was in A-Ball two years ago. Double-A last year. Hector Santiago: 3.38 ERA despite us jerking him around. A-Ball three years ago. .221 BAA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 Greg = troll Please stop feeding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 (edited) QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jul 26, 2013 -> 08:04 PM) People had been saying it when he was being overworked, when he got injured and now. Crain was injured in spring training and we know that wasn't from overwork because we have been told the White Sox didn't do anything in spring training but hang out by the pool, while Ventura was working the grill. He also went on the DL last year after pitching 7 innings. JESSE CRAIN AVERAGES 12 INNINGS A MONTH. HIS INJURY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OVERWORK.IF 12 INNINGS A MONTH IS OVERWORK, HE ISN'T GOING TO BE WORTH A DECENT PROSPECT ANYWAY. Edited July 27, 2013 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 03:48 AM) Crain was injured in spring training and we know that wasn't from overwork because we have been told the White Sox didn't do anything in spring training but hang out by the pool, while Ventura was working the grill. He also went on the DL last year after pitching 7 innings. JESSE CRAIN AVERAGES 12 INNINGS A MONTH. HIS INJURY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OVERWORK.IF 12 INNINGS A MONTH IS OVERWORK, HE ISN'T GOING TO BE WORTH A DECENT PROSPECT ANYWAY. If you looked at his pitches thrown over the last month before he went to the DL, he had thrown about 100 more than any set-up guy in the Top 20 for holds at that time (right hand, not LH loogy types). He definitely had a huge blip up for about a two or three week span where he had more pitches thrown than anyone in the AL out of the bullpen. The 12 innings pitched per month stat is just an average and not a realistic look at the actuality of his workload this year compared to seasons past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 (edited) QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 07:35 AM) If you looked at his pitches thrown over the last month before he went to the DL, he had thrown about 100 more than any set-up guy in the Top 20 for holds at that time (right hand, not LH loogy types). He definitely had a huge blip up for about a two or three week span where he had more pitches thrown than anyone in the AL out of the bullpen. The 12 innings pitched per month stat is just an average and not a realistic look at the actuality of his workload this year compared to seasons past. He threw 230 in June. My first look was Tampa and Peralta threw 173 in June. Not quite 100. It is funny, if someone gets hurt, the manager or a coach is an idiot, he shouldn't have played. If the same player doesn't play, people get all upset about that. I pointed out DRose. People wanted Thibs fired for having DRose in a game they thought was clearly decided and he wasn't needed. Later, they are upset Rose isn't playing in games when the team realistically has no shot at a title. The only difference is the second part they weren't blaming on the coach. Crain pitched 12 innings in June. If that is too much, he is worth very little on the trade market. I think if you asked trainers, the 230 pitches over 11 appearances is not all tht relevant as he is only throwing about 20 at a time, not really enough to get all that gassed, which is what I believe causes problems with starters throwing too many pitches. IMO, the danger zone isn't necessarily overall pitch count, it is the individual games. If you are conditioned for 110, throwing 140-150 probably can hurt you. If you are conditioned for 20-25, as long as you are still getting rest, 12 innings in a month,manager abuse isn't the reason your shoulder is sore. Every team suffers from pitcher injuries. It's hard to believe with the success the Sox have had in that area, and knowing Robin goes with the organization's philosophy, how people want to blame him for this. Pitchers get hurt. Edited July 27, 2013 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 I'd like to know the reason why Crain was given such a heavy workload. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 08:10 AM) I'd like to know the reason why Crain was given such a heavy workload. 10.1 innings in April 13.2 innings in May 12.2 innings in June Just abused Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 08:12 AM) 10.1 innings in April 13.2 innings in May 12.2 innings in June Just abused What would you consider a heavy workload for Crain? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 08:15 AM) What would you consider a heavy workload for Crain? He is a one inning pitcher, so multiple 3 games in a row appearances, he had one but not in June, and lack of a breather after back to backappearances, those would be heavy. June 1 was the backend of him appearing 2 in a row, he got 3 days off after that. He got 4 days off after the next one. 7 days off the one after that, and 5 days off his last one. Are these guys museum pieces that are just there for people to look at? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 08:23 AM) He is a one inning pitcher, so multiple 3 games in a row appearances, he had one but not in June, and lack of a breather after back to backappearances, those would be heavy. June 1 was the backend of him appearing 2 in a row, he got 3 days off after that. He got 4 days off after the next one. 7 days off the one after that, and 5 days off his last one. Are these guys museum pieces that are just there for people to look at? When his only value to the team is what he brings back in a trade, yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 (edited) QUOTE (Heads22 @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 12:21 AM) Chris Sale: Cy Young caliber pitcher Jake Peavy: Most sought after pitcher in market Jose Quintana: 5-3 with a 3.55 ERA. He was in A-Ball two years ago. Double-A last year. Hector Santiago: 3.38 ERA despite us jerking him around. A-Ball three years ago. .221 BAA I don't see anything exceptional in that list, far beyond what many other pitching coaches have accomplished. Sale - he's great. Peavy is the most sought after pitcher on the market because the next best pitcher on the market is Bud Norris. He did his best pitching before he got here. But yes he's been good when healthy. Quintana pitched pretty well with the Yankees but they left him off their 40 man and we signed him. He's been good. Santiago - he's good. Lot of pitchers are good. I think he has a chance to be really good - we'll see how that goes. And who exactly is the "we" who has been jerking him around?????? Ahem. His biggest claim to fame is Matt Thornton. A bad pitcher he turned into a good one - great for a while. Then I'd say Floyd next. I have no complaints with Cooper. He's a good coach. He has a great reputation in baseball. He can be the pitching coach here for as long as he wants if it were up to me. But a genius.? Edited July 27, 2013 by GreenSox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 08:35 AM) When his only value to the team is what he brings back in a trade, yes. Players that don't show they can play have no value. The guy got hurt at a bad time, but to try to place blame on an injury like that is beyond silly. Pitchers get hurt on every team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 08:41 AM) Players that don't show they can play have no value. The guy got hurt at a bad time, but to try to place blame on an injury like that is beyond silly. Pitchers get hurt on every team. Like when they are on the DL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 Marty, you've been so much more constructive lately. Why fight THIS battle? You have to know that you're just being a contrarian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 09:01 AM) Marty, you've been so much more constructive lately. Why fight THIS battle? You have to know that you're just being a contrarian. Contrarian to what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 (edited) QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 08:52 AM) Like when they are on the DL. Using that logic, anyone the Sox are thinking about trading needs to be riding pine. They might get hurt. Considering how many you want them to trade, they wouldn't be able to field a team. Just take forfeits until they can I guess. But I am well aware you are just trolling. Edited July 27, 2013 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 08:37 AM) I don't see anything exceptional in that list, far beyond what many other pitching coaches have accomplished. Sale - he's great. Peavy is the most sought after pitcher on the market because the next best pitcher on the market is Bud Norris. He did his best pitching before he got here. But yes he's been good when healthy. Quintana pitched pretty well with the Yankees but they left him off their 40 man and we signed him. He's been good. Santiago - he's good. Lot of pitchers are good. I think he has a chance to be really good - we'll see how that goes. And who exactly is the "we" who has been jerking him around?????? Ahem. His biggest claim to fame is Matt Thornton. A bad pitcher he turned into a good one - great for a while. Then I'd say Floyd next. I have no complaints with Cooper. He's a good coach. He has a great reputation in baseball. He can be the pitching coach here for as long as he wants if it were up to me. But a genius.? Contreras, Hermanson, Politte, Jenks, Loaiza, Floyd, Quintana, Thornton... It's pretty easy to keep going. The Sox have had one of the best staffs in baseball nearly every year Cooper has been around. They pitch in a bandbox. Don Cooper is a bad motherf***er. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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