Jesse Crain dealt to Tampa Bay

[cabiness42]

Contrarian to what?

 

Contrarian to anybody with a semblance of decency and/or knowledge about baseball.

 

[Marty34]

Contrarian to anybody with a semblance of decency and/or knowledge about baseball.

 

I don't think you understand the game all that much if you a.) don't believe Crain was overworked and b.) if you don't think his being overworked led to him being placed on the DL.

[Dick Allen]

I don't think you understand the game all that much if you a.) don't believe Crain was overworked and b.) if you don't think his being overworked led to him being placed on the DL.

He wasn't overworked. If he can't pitch 12 innings a month as a middle reliever, and he makes $4-5 million, you aren't getting anything worthwhile back for him.

 

Look at the gamelogs and explain how he was overworked.

[caulfield12]

In the end, there's always August to push through a Crain/waiver wire transaction.

 

It's not for certain we'll be getting left empty-handed yet. Plus, he has to come back and show he can pitch this season or he's going to have a seriously diminished value on the free agent market.

Edited July 27, 2013 by caulfield12

[Marty34]

He wasn't overworked. If he can't pitch 12 innings a month as a middle reliever, and he makes $4-5 million, you aren't getting anything worthwhile back for him.

 

Look at the gamelogs and explain how he was overworked.

 

Throughout his career he's been a 60 inning pitcher and as such needs to be handled with great care. They very fact that he landed on the DL with a "tired" shoulder tells you he was overworked.

[Buehrle>Wood]

Crain would be one of the fastest blocked players out there. With so many teams not sellers, we will get nothing for him in August.

[Marty34]

Crain would be one of the fastest blocked players out there. With so many teams not sellers, we will get nothing for him in August.

 

Exactly.

[Balta1701]

Throughout his career he's been a 60 inning pitcher and as such needs to be handled with great care. They very fact that he landed on the DL with a "tired" shoulder tells you he was overworked.

He's also been a 60 inning pitcher in part because he gets hurt pretty regularly every year. For him, missing a month is kinda normal.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

He's also been a 60 inning pitcher in part because he gets hurt pretty regularly every year. For him, missing a month is kinda normal.

Yep maybe someone should look into his age and injury history before they make claims of overuse this year. Same guy who wanted Jones sent down which would've put Crain to use even more .If you baby the guy because he's a free agent then maybe he never racks up the gaudy numbers he put up this year and you end up hearing why isn't Crain in there ? Damned if you do damned if you don't . Damned even further by sending down Jones. Trollish behavior at best idiotic at worst.

Edited July 27, 2013 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Marty34]

Yep maybe someone should look into his age and injury history before they make claims of overuse this year. Same guy who wanted Jones sent down which would've put Crain to use even more .If you baby the guy because he's a free agent then maybe he never racks up the gaudy numbers he put up this year and you end up hearing why isn't Crain in there ? Damned if you do damned if you don't . Damned even further by sending down Jones. Trollish behavior at best idiotic at worst.

 

What was the purpose of overusing Crain?

[Marty34]

He's also been a 60 inning pitcher in part because he gets hurt pretty regularly every year. For him, missing a month is kinda normal.

 

If that's the case then Hahn was negligent in not dealing him earlier.

[Balta1701]

If that's the case then Hahn was negligent in not dealing him earlier.

Then you'd have had the joy of complaining how Hahn dealt him too early and didn't get enough for him.

[Marty34]

Then you'd have had the joy of complaining how Hahn dealt him too early and didn't get enough for him.

 

Perhaps the return Hahn would have gotten would have put them on course to make your 90-win preseason prediction look good.

[Balta1701]

Perhaps the return Hahn would have gotten would have put them on course to make your 90-win preseason prediction look good.

I guarantee you the Angels would happily trade Crain for the guy you kept asking for last offseason...Josh Hamilton.

[Marty34]

I guarantee you the Angels would happily trade Crain for the guy you kept asking for last offseason...Josh Hamilton.

 

You are so seldom correct I think it deserves mention when you are.

[Marty34]

We should have a poll of who agrees with Balta or Marty more. You know, to get more objective opinions.

 

You agreed with me.

[CyAcosta41]

I don't think you understand the game all that much if you a.) don't believe Crain was overworked and b.) if you don't think his being overworked led to him being placed on the DL.

 

Wow. Talk about not understanding the game.

 

ANY pitch can be a pitcher's last pitch. Sure, IF a pitcher is actually overworked (and I personally believe that Crain was borderline overworked earlier in this year), such overwork MIGHT increase the likelihood of significant injury, but all pitchers run the risk of serious injury each time they rock and fire the pill.

 

One of the major orthopods -- perhaps Jobs or Andrews -- was asked about pitcher X being "unlucky" because they suffered a career derailing arm injury while guys like Nolan Ryan and Greg Maddux just rolled along year after year after year. The Good Doctor stopped the questioner cold and said something like: "Guys like Ryan and Maddux are freaks ... NOBODY'S arm should be able to withstand the repetitive abuse of the inherently unnatural pitching motion ... it's a matter of time, a matter of luck, but arms are simply designed to fail."

 

I think all Sox fans are upset about the incredibly poor timing of Crain being injured yet again (and it is "yet again" because he's had minor arm injury issues throughout his career). It sucks. Such poor timing. Like with Gavin Floyd earlier in the year, a relatively healthy Crain would have been a really nice trading chip for a rebuilding team. But it's another thing altogether to play the blame game for losing that trading chip. Crain was here to pitch for the White Sox. Period. He wouldn't have been considered a potentially valuable trading chip if he hadn't pitched for the White Sox (and pitched successfully). Blaming Ventura, or Cooper, or Hahn, or anyone for NOT having the ability to see into the future is ridiculous, UNLESS the alleged "overworking" was so patently extreme that no reasonable baseball people would have done anything remotely similar. And no way are Ventura, Cooper, or Hahn guilty of "overworking" Crain by that standard.

 

Cry all you want about a lost opportunity, Marty, but blaming anyone is absolutely wrong.

 

PS - To those who tell me I shouldn't bother "feeding a troll" ... I don't care. This post is less about arguing with Marty, than it is throwing out some thoughts about pitching and injuries.

Edited July 27, 2013 by CyAcosta41

[Marty34]

Sure pitchers get hurt all the time, but what makes Crain being overused so bad is there was absolutely nothing to be gained by it.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Wow. Talk about not understanding the game.

 

ANY pitch can be a pitcher's last pitch. Sure, IF a pitcher is actually overworked (and I personally believe that Crain was borderline overworked earlier in this year), such overwork MIGHT increase the likelihood of significant injury, but all pitchers run the risk of serious injury each time they rock and fire the pill.

 

One of the major orthopods -- perhaps Jobs or Andrews -- was asked about pitcher X being "unlucky" because they suffered a career derailing arm injury while guys like Nolan Ryan and Greg Maddux just rolled along year after year after year. The Good Doctor stopped the questioner cold and said something like: "Guys like Ryan and Maddux are freaks ... NOBODY'S arm should be able to withstand the repetitive abuse of the inherently unnatural pitching motion ... it's a matter of time, a matter of luck, but arms are simply designed to fail."

 

I think all Sox fans are upset about the incredibly poor timing of Crain being injured yet again (and it is "yet again" because he's had minor arm injury issues throughout his career). It sucks. Such poor timing. Like with Gavin Floyd earlier in the year, a relatively healthy Crain would have been a really nice trading chip for a rebuilding team. But it's another thing altogether to play the blame game for losing that trading chip. Crain was here to pitch for the White Sox. Period. He wouldn't have been considered a potentially valuable trading chip if he hadn't pitched for the White Sox (and pitched successfully). Blaming Ventura, or Cooper, or Hahn, or anyone for NOT having the ability to see into the future is ridiculous, UNLESS the alleged "overworking" was so patently extreme that no reasonable baseball people would have done anything remotely similar. And no way are Ventura, Cooper, or Hahn guilty of "overworking" Crain by that standard.

 

Cry all you want about a lost opportunity, Marty, but blaming anyone is absolutely wrong.

 

PS - To those who tell me I shouldn't bother "feeding a troll" ... I don't care. This post is less about arguing with Marty, than it is throwing out some thoughts about pitching and injuries.

Such a good poster , so few posts. But glad to see more of you lately. Your baseball acumen is only exceeded by your ability to state your case .

Edited July 27, 2013 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Marty34]

Why are you assuming I would be on Balta's side? If he is correct so rarely you would have to assume all posters would agree with you, right?

 

What are you talking about? You wanted a "more objective opinion."

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

What was the purpose of overusing Crain?

Sorry I am not the hungry fish you think I am to take the bait on such a loaded question.

[Reddy]

Sure pitchers get hurt all the time, but what makes Crain being overused so bad is there was absolutely nothing to be gained by it.

You're right. We shouldn't trot ANYONE out to the mound for fear they may get hurt and lose their value. GMAFB

[cabiness42]

I don't think you understand the game all that much if you a.) don't believe Crain was overworked and b.) if you don't think his being overworked led to him being placed on the DL.

 

I think I know the game plenty enough to trust the judgment of a professional coaching and training staff over some arrogant asshole on a message board. Anybody that second guesses professionals that much has to be so full of themselves that they can't see straight.

[Marty34]

I think I know the game plenty enough to trust the judgment of a professional coaching and training staff over some arrogant asshole on a message board. Anybody that second guesses professionals that much has to be so full of themselves that they can't see straight.

 

Weird.

[iamshack]

Wow. Talk about not understanding the game.

 

ANY pitch can be a pitcher's last pitch. Sure, IF a pitcher is actually overworked (and I personally believe that Crain was borderline overworked earlier in this year), such overwork MIGHT increase the likelihood of significant injury, but all pitchers run the risk of serious injury each time they rock and fire the pill.

 

One of the major orthopods -- perhaps Jobs or Andrews -- was asked about pitcher X being "unlucky" because they suffered a career derailing arm injury while guys like Nolan Ryan and Greg Maddux just rolled along year after year after year. The Good Doctor stopped the questioner cold and said something like: "Guys like Ryan and Maddux are freaks ... NOBODY'S arm should be able to withstand the repetitive abuse of the inherently unnatural pitching motion ... it's a matter of time, a matter of luck, but arms are simply designed to fail."

 

I think all Sox fans are upset about the incredibly poor timing of Crain being injured yet again (and it is "yet again" because he's had minor arm injury issues throughout his career). It sucks. Such poor timing. Like with Gavin Floyd earlier in the year, a relatively healthy Crain would have been a really nice trading chip for a rebuilding team. But it's another thing altogether to play the blame game for losing that trading chip. Crain was here to pitch for the White Sox. Period. He wouldn't have been considered a potentially valuable trading chip if he hadn't pitched for the White Sox (and pitched successfully). Blaming Ventura, or Cooper, or Hahn, or anyone for NOT having the ability to see into the future is ridiculous, UNLESS the alleged "overworking" was so patently extreme that no reasonable baseball people would have done anything remotely similar. And no way are Ventura, Cooper, or Hahn guilty of "overworking" Crain by that standard.

 

Cry all you want about a lost opportunity, Marty, but blaming anyone is absolutely wrong.

 

PS - To those who tell me I shouldn't bother "feeding a troll" ... I don't care. This post is less about arguing with Marty, than it is throwing out some thoughts about pitching and injuries.

Some great stuff in there, and I agree you can't say with any reasonable certainty when or how or why Crain got injured.

 

I know you're a lawyer...don't you think I can make a pretty good case that if you believe Crain was overworked, and you stated that you believe he might have been, that that increased the likelihood of him suffering an injury? While any one pitch might be the one that causes an injury, that doesn't mean that you throw out all the other contributing factors. Too much work leads to fatigue which often leads to bad mechanics which increases the chances of sustaining injury.

 

To me, the argument isn't whether he was overworked, but rather, was the rationale or reasoning for his frequent usage justifiable? I would argue yes. He was in the final year of his deal (likely no future with our club). He wasn't a young, developing player. We desperately needed him to attempt to stay in contention. RV did what he had to to try and keep the ship afloat.

 

The intention was never to use Crain as an asset to trade until it was too late.