Rios, $1M traded to Rangers

[caulfield12]

They should be prepared to tank the next two years, at minimum, now that they've traded these two, with Dunn and Konerko out shortly and Alexei on the wrong side of his career.

 

The problem is they're unwilling to commit to doing so.

 

 

What move makes you think they're unwilling to completely tank? Holding onto Ramirez (so far)?

 

They obviously want to move Dunn, and they would probably love to get out from under the John Danks contract, although they'll be saying publicly they expect him to round into #2/3 form with a year under his belt in terms of recovery from the shoulder injury and increased stamina/velocity as well as better results in the 2nd half.

 

They're obviously following Konerko's (perhaps JR's) wishes and letting him finish out his career in a Sox uniform.

[iamshack]

Presumably that defensive capable SS is on the trading block in the near future. Viciedo, Garcia, De Aza, Phegley, and Beckham could well form the nucleus of a solid lineup if they can be developed. Gillaspie could be a solid contributor, or at worst a good contributor as a platoon player.

 

We're missing 1b and DH looking past next year. DH is fillable, or they could try some combination of Wilkins and Flowers at those positions if they wanted to get crazy.

 

You're projecting these guys to be failures, particularly Viciedo obviously, when the organization is not doing so.

I meant Sanchez.

 

Why are you trying so hard to make a 95 loss team an 85 loss team?

[Balta1701]

Suddenly a super sub is a quality return...c'mon, stop forcing bs down our throats.

Yes, a 22 year old whose floor is a super sub is a quality return.

[Eminor3rd]

Not really. Trading Rios for a quality return, which is what we got, was by far the best of the options unless the organization is fully ready to give up on Viciedo.

 

This trade makes it clear they're not. He's not losing his spot to Garcia.

 

It seems very unlikely that Hahn couldn't have got a substantially better prospect if he was willing to pay even half of Rios' contract. And for a team currently scheduled to have a $46m payroll next year, that is frustrating. The Cubs have been doing this for two years and already their future looks extremely bright depsite having way more tearing down to do than us, and yet our front office won't spend a dime on minor league talent. The CBA won't let us spend this $60m payroll disparity on young talent, so where is it going to go? Kendry Morales and the like? Whatever -- that's a recipe for a middling AL Central team for the next eight years. Throw every dime you spend on Morales at getting some actual impact talent from teams you trade with and we may actually have a shot at winning in the next 2-3 years.

[caulfield12]

Good post. It is weird to see the kool-aid drank here since this trade does little to nothing to help either side of the spectrum, the rebuild crowd or the retool crowd. We will see what the plan is this offseason.

 

Freeing up all that money does BOTH...but we just have to be patient and wait to see how it's reinvested. There might not be immediate gratification, as the results of all these moves won't start to make sense until the offseason following 2014.

[NorthSideSox72]

FutureSox analysis of Leury Garcia.

 

Also there is a discussion thread on Garcia on the FS forum.

 

 

[Buehrle>Wood]

We got a 22 year old slick fielding SS whose floor appears to be "really good utility player" and whose ceiling could very well be "Better than the guy the Red Sox sent to Detroit for Garcia".

One in the same...except one is still a better glove than the other.

 

 

 

You're right. I'm not sure how acquiring a utility infielder helps a rebuild.

[Balta1701]

It seems very unlikely that Hahn couldn't have got a substantially better prospect if he was willing to pay even half of Rios' contract. And for a team currently scheduled to have a $46m payroll next year, that is frustrating. The Cubs have been doing this for two years and already their future looks extremely bright depsite having way more tearing down to do than us, and yet our front office won't spend a dime on minor league talent. The CBA won't let us spend this $60m payroll disparity on young talent, so where is it going to go? Kendry Morales and the like? Whatever -- that's a recipe for a middling AL Central team for the next eight years. Throw every dime you spend on Morales at getting some actual impact talent from teams you trade with and we may actually have a shot at winning in the next 2-3 years.

Seriously, what impact talent have the Cubs gotten by including money with people? Travis Wood? They've included money with people to dump terrible contracts and gotten back nothing for them.

 

Teams aren't doing what you guys are saying they're doing.

[iamshack]

What move makes you think they're unwilling to completely tank? Holding onto Ramirez (so far)?

 

They obviously want to move Dunn, and they would probably love to get out from under the John Danks contract, although they'll be saying publicly they expect him to round into #2/3 form with a year under his belt in terms of recovery from the shoulder injury and increased stamina/velocity as well as better results in the 2nd half.

 

They're obviously following Konerko's (perhaps JR's) wishes and letting him finish out his career in a Sox uniform.

I'm mostly speaking of Sale, but yes, also Alexei, De Aza, Reed...they should be just blowing up the whole damn thing if they're willing to give up on Rios and Peavy for so little return.

[Balta1701]

One in the same...except one is still a better glove than the other.

 

 

 

You're right. I'm not sure how acquiring a utility infielder helps a rebuild.

If the White Sox had traded Peavy for Jose Iglesias, would you be saying the same thing?

[iamshack]

Yes, a 22 year old whose floor is a super sub is a quality return.

Hmm...I read that closer to his most likely expected outcome.

[caulfield12]

It seems very unlikely that Hahn couldn't have got a substantially better prospect if he was willing to pay even half of Rios' contract. And for a team currently scheduled to have a $46m payroll next year, that is frustrating. The Cubs have been doing this for two years and already their future looks extremely bright depsite having way more tearing down to do than us, and yet our front office won't spend a dime on minor league talent. The CBA won't let us spend this $60m payroll disparity on young talent, so where is it going to go? Kendry Morales and the like? Whatever -- that's a recipe for a middling AL Central team for the next eight years. Throw every dime you spend on Morales at getting some actual impact talent from teams you trade with and we may actually have a shot at winning in the next 2-3 years.

 

 

Except they've never done this in the last 30 years, as an approach.

 

It's frustrating to watch the Cubs or the Dodgers amass talent in this way...but the White Sox are highly unlikely to change course right now.

 

The fact of the matter is that DET is head and shoulders above the rest of the AL Central and you're still going to have a VERY difficult time getting Top 1-2-3 prospects back from other organizations even if you eat a ton of salary.

 

The best young player the Marlins got from the massive offseason Blue Jays trade was Hechavaria, for example. And yet this Garcia kid might turn out to be a lot better player in the end.

[caulfield12]

Hmm...I read that closer to his most likely expected outcome.

 

Casper Wells will re-sign with us in the offseason and be converted to a 7th/8th inning set-up guy on the cheap, lol.

[Buehrle>Wood]

Freeing up all that money does BOTH...but we just have to be patient and wait to spositionow it's reinvested. There might not be immediate gratification, as the results of all these moves won't start to make sense until the offseason following 2014.

I'm not sure freeing up money does much of either though. I mean we SHOULD have tons of cash already. Draft caps put an end to how much we can really improve our system through spending.

 

On the retool side, again we had tons of cash available. I think at best you use this money to sign his valued equivalent. I guess he will be a different position.

 

 

My real guess though is none of this happens. The cash isn't reinvested much of anywhere as the organization cuts back hard.

[Balta1701]

Hmm...I read that closer to his most likely expected outcome.

Just because Keith Law says it doesn't make it so.

 

This guy has comparable numbers to a bunch of people who are getting penciled in as starting shortstops. He's very young, he's been pushed up aggressively, he supposedly has really solid fielding tools, and he has a real solid speed game.

 

I'd say there's a decent chance he looks like a solid player in a year or two, and a decent chance he's a utility guy. I'll take that, there's some real upside here.

[iamshack]

It seems very unlikely that Hahn couldn't have got a substantially better prospect if he was willing to pay even half of Rios' contract. And for a team currently scheduled to have a $46m payroll next year, that is frustrating. The Cubs have been doing this for two years and already their future looks extremely bright depsite having way more tearing down to do than us, and yet our front office won't spend a dime on minor league talent. The CBA won't let us spend this $60m payroll disparity on young talent, so where is it going to go? Kendry Morales and the like? Whatever -- that's a recipe for a middling AL Central team for the next eight years. Throw every dime you spend on Morales at getting some actual impact talent from teams you trade with and we may actually have a shot at winning in the next 2-3 years.

 

[iamshack]

Just because Keith Law says it doesn't make it so.

 

This guy has comparable numbers to a bunch of people who are getting penciled in as starting shortstops. He's very young, he's been pushed up aggressively, he supposedly has really solid fielding tools, and he has a real solid speed game.

 

I'd say there's a decent chance he looks like a solid player in a year or two, and a decent chance he's a utility guy. I'll take that, there's some real upside here.

Well he knows a hell of a lot more than you have learned in the last 2 hours and have convinced yourself so you can sleep at night.

Edited August 9, 2013 by iamshack

[Buehrle>Wood]

If the White Sox had traded Peavy for Jose Iglesias, would you be saying the same thing?

Iglesias for Peavy would be terrible. I called it such when we indeed thought that was the trade.

[iamshack]

Except they've never done this in the last 30 years, as an approach.

 

It's frustrating to watch the Cubs or the Dodgers amass talent in this way...but the White Sox are highly unlikely to change course right now.

 

The fact of the matter is that DET is head and shoulders above the rest of the AL Central and you're still going to have a VERY difficult time getting Top 1-2-3 prospects back from other organizations even if you eat a ton of salary.

 

The best young player the Marlins got from the massive offseason Blue Jays trade was Hechavaria, for example. And yet this Garcia kid might turn out to be a lot better player in the end.

But they also never reallocated resources away from the MLB team like they just did, at least not in the last decade or so.

[caulfield12]

I'm mostly speaking of Sale, but yes, also Alexei, De Aza, Reed...they should be just blowing up the whole damn thing if they're willing to give up on Rios and Peavy for so little return.

 

 

And probably they will continue to dangle Nathan Jones/Reed out there...behind the scenes, until they get a taker.

 

DeAza's a fourth outfielder with a lot of offensive tools but a lot of flaws, so the question will be whether they want to pay him to continue to hold down an outfield position or open another spot....but for who exactly? As mentioned, Trayce is not ready to go, and nobody wants to see the Mariners strategy of Bay/Morse/Ibanez, right?

 

Caught in no-man's land.

 

Heck, I would almost rather see Mitchell out there in 2014, just to see what happens...and that might be what actually does occur, in the end (revolving OF tryouts at the big league level throughout 2014). Or Walker. Or Jacobs. They'll protect Thompson a lot more, though.

 

 

So that puts everything back in the debate topic box of :

 

1) Trading Sale for a mega-package

 

2) Trading Quintana/Santiago to get more offensive help, along with Reed/Jones and opening up bullpen opportunities for the likes of Webb

[Dick Allen]

It seems very unlikely that Hahn couldn't have got a substantially better prospect if he was willing to pay even half of Rios' contract. And for a team currently scheduled to have a $46m payroll next year, that is frustrating. The Cubs have been doing this for two years and already their future looks extremely bright depsite having way more tearing down to do than us, and yet our front office won't spend a dime on minor league talent. The CBA won't let us spend this $60m payroll disparity on young talent, so where is it going to go? Kendry Morales and the like? Whatever -- that's a recipe for a middling AL Central team for the next eight years. Throw every dime you spend on Morales at getting some actual impact talent from teams you trade with and we may actually have a shot at winning in the next 2-3 years.

Which Texas farmhand was available for $8.5 million? If you are going to post these outrageous claims back them up. Texas" farm isn't the greatest right now either.

 

The Sox did pay $1 million for this prospect and a lot of publications seem to like him.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Dick Allen

[Eminor3rd]

Except they've never done this in the last 30 years, as an approach.

 

It's frustrating to watch the Cubs or the Dodgers amass talent in this way...but the White Sox are highly unlikely to change course right now.

 

The fact of the matter is that DET is head and shoulders above the rest of the AL Central and you're still going to have a VERY difficult time getting Top 1-2-3 prospects back from other organizations even if you eat a ton of salary.

 

The best young player the Marlins got from the massive offseason Blue Jays trade was Hechavaria, for example. And yet this Garcia kid might turn out to be a lot better player in the end.

 

Marisnick and Sanchez are both substantially better prospects than Hechavarria, and that trade was ALL about salary relief anyway. Garcia might turn out better, yes, but he's never been considered a better prospect than those two.

 

I agree that they've never done it like that, I'm just saying it's frustrating. Hahn keeps feeding the media this BS line about how the money is going into draft and international spending -- really, the $50m he just saved? When International signing is capped at ~$2.5m and the draft pool will be ~$7m? If you won't earmark that much money into amateur talent acquisition already in today's MLB, you're not seriously even trying to build a winning organization. The only place to put it is in free agency, where there are two to three impact talents at most these days, and even signing two of them wouldn't put this garbage team over the top.

 

I am awaiting the fruition of the master plan -- I understand i need to see what happens in the offseason -- but it looks really underwhelming thusfar.

[greg775]

They should be prepared to tank the next two years, at minimum, now that they've traded these two, with Dunn and Konerko out shortly and Alexei on the wrong side of his career.

 

The problem is they're unwilling to commit to doing so.

Hahn's trying to get the most he can from teams despite not being able to send any money. I think they are committing to it.

 

Good post. It is weird to see the kool-aid drank here since this trade does little to nothing to help either side of the spectrum, the rebuild crowd or the retool crowd. We will see what the plan is this offseason.

 

How can you say that? Sox have already got a new young rightfielder. If he's good, he can have the job 10 years. We just got a shortstop who has been in the big leagues at 22 and could take over tomorrow. That's 2/8 of a rebuild on the diamond and we haven't received our return for Lexi yet. We traded Thornton who is on the DL and close to being finished for another young slugger in Jacobs. Sox are getting a body for Crain and 3 more prospects in Peavy deal.

Now if A. Garcia is crap, ugh. We shall see. Still six weeks of baseball to be played.

[Dick Allen]

Marisnick and Sanchez are both substantially better prospects than Hechavarria, and that trade was ALL about salary relief anyway. Garcia might turn out better, yes, but he's never been considered a better prospect than those two.

 

I agree that they've never done it like that, I'm just saying it's frustrating. Hahn keeps feeding the media this BS line about how the money is going into draft and international spending -- really, the $50m he just saved? When International signing is capped at ~$2.5m and the draft pool will be ~$7m? If you won't earmark that much money into amateur talent acquisition already in today's MLB, you're not seriously even trying to build a winning organization. The only place to put it is in free agency, where there are two to three impact talents at most these days, and even signing two of them wouldn't put this garbage team over the top.

 

I am awaiting the fruition of the master plan -- I understand i need to see what happens in the offseason -- but it looks really underwhelming thusfar.

There are players that are not subjected to the cap.

[Balta1701]

And probably they will continue to dangle Nathan Jones/Reed out there...behind the scenes, until they get a taker.

 

DeAza's a fourth outfielder with a lot of offensive tools but a lot of flaws, so the question will be whether they want to pay him to continue to hold down an outfield position or open another spot....but for who exactly? As mentioned, Trayce is not ready to go, and nobody wants to see the Mariners strategy of Bay/Morse/Ibanez, right?

De Aza really isn't a 4th OF. As people keep noting, he's outproducing Rios this year. He's a real solid OF. He just isn't a CF right now, and he needs someone to keep his head in the game.

2) Trading Quintana/Santiago to get more offensive help, along with Reed/Jones and opening up bullpen opportunities for the likes of Webb

This may still happen. If both Rienzo and Johnson are viewed as starting candidates, then the Sox have the 6 starter pile again. Of course, there are already open spots for Webb whenever they decide to give one of them to him, so Reed and Jones don't need to be dealt for that to happen.