Rios, $1M traded to Rangers

[Marty34]

If Viciedo, Phegley, and Garcia can do what they're capable of next year, this could be a cooking offense.

 

Personally though I'm expecting all 3 of them to strugglle mightily to the point where people here want them all released by June.

 

What makes you think Viciedo is going to struggle mightily next year?

[Balta1701]

What makes you think Viciedo is going to struggle mightily next year?

This year.

[caulfield12]

The "everything that can go wrong will go wrong" skepticism that's set in with most of us, haha?

 

Actually, knowing the White Sox, they'll pleasantly surprise and be competitive for at least half the season and nobody will notice or care because ALMOST everyone's given up on the team already until 2015.

 

The "back-up QB" phenomenon definitely applies here to Phegley....now that he's struggling, the board's back to giving McCann big bucks.

 

I'd agree there is ZERO to lose letting him play nearly everyday...though...with the caveat that Morel put together a strong final month in terms of power in a similar pressure-free situation but it was a mirage and had no carryover effect. That said, other than dealing with health issues, there's little in common between Morel and Phegley, other than the fact that they're "cursed" White Sox position prospects.

Edited August 10, 2013 by caulfield12

[Chisoxfn]

See, this is exactly what I mean about a lack of patience. Phegley showed at Charlotte this year that he has the talent to be a solid run producer, but we called him up after 3 months of solid hitting out of his entire minor league career. Declaring that he "isn't showing a lot to like about his long-term potential" is just wrong. If he was still down in Charlotte until July 31, people would have been begging for him to be up for another month.

 

He's in a slump now in his 2nd month in the big leagues. Saying things like "he isn't showing a lot to like about his long term potential" is what I keep harping about, it's the exact opposite of what we should be doing. We shouldn't have even called him up if we're just going to toss him aside after 3 months; we'd have been better off letting him rake at Charlotte and then trading him in the offseason.

I don't give a rats behind about what he did in his 2nd full year in Charlotte. He hasn't done diddly squat to prove himself as some elite prospect. See my other post. Lets not make it out that we are writing off a top prospect in 22 games (plus...where did I write him off after 22 games). If it took 2 seasons to evaluate a young player, we could all have jobs in the bigs but the reality is good organizations have to make decisions much sooner than that. You can't just give all these guys an unlimited number of bats to put up or shut up. You have to make calls based upon a combination of past production, current production, and of course their tools.

 

s***, I'm probably one of the most patient people out there when it comes to prospects...but I sure as s*** aren't just going to hand guys at bats just because they had one good year in AAA. That doesn't give them a free pass to play like s*** for 2 years in the majors. By the end of this year, the White Sox will know a lot more about Josh Phegley and if he's producing like he is now and not making progress, I'll have seen all I need to (and I'd expect most scouts with half a brain would as well) to know that he doesn't project to be an everyday starting catcher.

[Chisoxfn]

The "everything that can go wrong will go wrong" skepticism that's set in with most of us, haha?

 

Actually, knowing the White Sox, they'll pleasantly surprise and be competitive for at least half the season and nobody will notice or care because ALMOST everyone's given up on the team already until 2015.

 

The "back-up QB" phenomenon definitely applies here to Phegley....now that he's struggling, the board's back to giving McCann big bucks.

 

I'd agree there is ZERO to lose letting him play nearly everyday...though...with the caveat that Morel put together a strong final month in terms of power in a similar pressure-free situation but it was a mirage and had no carryover effect. That said, other than dealing with health issues, there's little in common between Morel and Phegley, other than the fact that they're "cursed" White Sox position prospects.

Morel showed enough to get the right to be handed a starting job. Unfortunately he got sick as can be, lost wait, and then had a back injury, etc. Ruined his career. I don't know if he would have been good but he had earned that opportunity through what he showed at the major league level, the minor league level, and of course his toolset.

 

Brent Morel was a much better prospect then Josh Phegley.

[Balta1701]

I don't give a rats behind about what he did in his 2nd full year in Charlotte. He hasn't done diddly squat to prove himself as some elite prospect. See my other post. Lets not make it out that we are writing off a top prospect in 22 games (plus...where did I write him off after 22 games). If it took 2 seasons to evaluate a young player, we could all have jobs in the bigs but the reality is good organizations have to make decisions much sooner than that. You can't just give all these guys an unlimited number of bats to put up or shut up. You have to make calls based upon a combination of past production, current production, and of course their tools.

 

s***, I'm probably one of the most patient people out there when it comes to prospects...but I sure as s*** aren't just going to hand guys at bats just because they had one good year in AAA. That doesn't give them a free pass to play like s*** for 2 years in the majors. By the end of this year, the White Sox will know a lot more about Josh Phegley and if he's producing like he is now and not making progress, I'll have seen all I need to (and I'd expect most scouts with half a brain would as well) to know that he doesn't project to be an everyday starting catcher.

And I'll say again...if he was only going to get to the end of his first 1/2 season in the big leagues to prove himself, since he spent so long in the minors dealing with a serious medical issue, then it was crazy to call him up.

 

He'd have had a ton more value coming off an 1.100 OPS season in AAA at age 25 in the offseason than after a couple months of struggles in the big leagues if the team was going to ditch him for McCann. That's the exact opposite of maximizing the value of guys you have, that's destroying the value of one of them.

[Chisoxfn]

And I'll say again...if he was only going to get to the end of his first 1/2 season in the big leagues to prove himself, since he spent so long in the minors dealing with a serious medical issue, then it was crazy to call him up.

 

He'd have had a ton more value coming off an 1.100 OPS season in AAA at age 25 in the offseason than after a couple months of struggles in the big leagues if the team was going to ditch him for McCann. That's the exact opposite of maximizing the value of guys you have, that's destroying the value of one of them.

He should consider himself lucky to get half a season to prove his salt. Most prospects of his level wouldn't get near that sort of opportunity. It is hard to get an everyday starting job and good organizations don't just hand those jobs out to joe blow. They hand those jobs to elite prospects or guys that grab the job by the horn. In a half season, you get a pretty good vision of a guys skill-set and I really don't understand how you can't comprehend that.

 

You could hit .220 but make progress is different areas, show good tools, etc, and prove worthy of another season. Someone else that hit .220 could show that was their ceiling and not be worth anything. I really don't know what to say if you can't comprehend that but running a major league team involves more brains then just handing every AAA guy that had one good year a starting job for 2 years. Phegley wasn't some raw 21 year old catcher with a tool box that we were going to be coaching up at the big league level. He was a fringe prospect who was hot this year (maybe he was in fact healthy for the 1st time and showing who he really was) that had earned at least a shot at a starting job. He's going to get half of a year at the major league level and that is a long time for talent evaluators to get an opinion.

 

Now if the White Sox aren't trying to compete next year, sure, give Pheg's and Flowers another year, but in my opinion Flowers has had plenty of time to prove it and Phegley has another 40 games to show whether he potentially has what it takes to be a big league starter. I'm not saying he needs to hit .300 in the next 40 games but he sure as s*** has to show flashes, make progress, give you a reason to consider going into next year with him as your starter.

 

Should the White Sox have given Andy Gonzalez another full season to further prove he was a bum? Should we keep running Axelrods broke ass out there? If Axelrod was throwing 98 with some plus stuff, sure, I wouldn't write him off...but he was a smoke and mirrors guy who had good minor league success. Why not see if it worked at the big league level but now that he's had some action its pretty evident that he can't hack it.

[Chisoxfn]

And I'll say again...if he was only going to get to the end of his first 1/2 season in the big leagues to prove himself, since he spent so long in the minors dealing with a serious medical issue, then it was crazy to call him up.

 

He'd have had a ton more value coming off an 1.100 OPS season in AAA at age 25 in the offseason than after a couple months of struggles in the big leagues if the team was going to ditch him for McCann. That's the exact opposite of maximizing the value of guys you have, that's destroying the value of one of them.

Maximizing value for Phegley? He wouldn't have even came close to cracking a top 100 prospect list, probably wouldn't even crack a top 200 prospect list. Phegley's best value is and was with the White Sox and if he turns into a solid back-up catcher thats freaking great and we should be thankful (and if he plays well down the stretch and shows maybe he could be a starter, great). However, he's done nothing to indicate he's going to be an above average catcher (that isn't based upon just 22 games in the majors) and the White Sox shouldn't be in the business of giving guys with an upside of being at best a league average catcher years and years when you could potentially fill that need with a well above average player.

[2nd_city_saint787]

Are the Braves loaded with cash? They've made some big signings recently which didn't pay off and have always tried to keep their payroll at a reasonable level. And I'm not saying we will sign him but if i were the GM, he'd be #1 on my list.

 

With Gattis emerging as a threat I'd be surprised if ATL resigns McCann. Gattis is blocked at 1B by Freeman, and when all healthy he's blocked by the Uptons and Heyward in the OF.

[fathom]

With Gattis emerging as a threat I'd be surprised if ATL resigns McCann. Gattis is blocked at 1B by Freeman, and when all healthy he's blocked by the Uptons and Heyward in the OF.

 

Agreed, and I asked yesterday, which teams out there will be in the market for a catcher?

[Chisoxfn]

With Gattis emerging as a threat I'd be surprised if ATL resigns McCann. Gattis is blocked at 1B by Freeman, and when all healthy he's blocked by the Uptons and Heyward in the OF.

Gattis is just fun to watch at the plate. Dude is a f***ing lumberjack...plus I love the fact that he doesn't wear batting gloves.

[caulfield12]

Phegley has gotten the benefit of the doubt to an extent because of his lack of health and relatively high draft position...the scouts clearly saw SOMETHING they likely, originally.

 

That said, if he continues his current level of offensive/defensive play, he's a back-up (at best, if it's not Flowers or another veteran like a Ruiz/Shoppach/lesser Molina brought in to add some veteran stability around the youngsters).

 

Personally, I think it's more likely that Flowers ends up the back-up and Phegley's either the starter in 2014 OR traded OR AAA'ed.

 

 

And the idea that Josh or Axelrod have/had much value at all around the rest of the majors is a pretty dubious one...we let, for example, Lucas Harrell, get away for nothing, Eric Stults, etc. Just because someone ends up serviceable in the NL West doesn't mean they're valued by other teams.

[Balta1701]

Maximizing value for Phegley? He wouldn't have even came close to cracking a top 100 prospect list, probably wouldn't even crack a top 200 prospect list. Phegley's best value is and was with the White Sox and if he turns into a solid back-up catcher thats freaking great and we should be thankful (and if he plays well down the stretch and shows maybe he could be a starter, great). However, he's done nothing to indicate he's going to be an above average catcher (that isn't based upon just 22 games in the majors) and the White Sox shouldn't be in the business of giving guys with an upside of being at best a league average catcher years and years when you could potentially fill that need with a well above average player.

If you'd have written any of this in late June people would have scoffed at you. Phegley was tearing up Charlotte and people were furious that he was being denied the chance he had earned.

 

If he'd finished up his age 25 season in Charlotte the way he was the whole year, hitting .300+ with a nearly 1.000 OPS, then "He's done nothing to indicate he's going to be an above average catcher" would be just wrong because he'd have done exactly what you wanted him to do.

 

Yes he hadn't done that beforehand, but he basically lost an entire season and the team pushed him upwards anyway.

 

People were predicting how great he'd be when he came up based on how he was raking in Charlotte and I was the one being ignored when I said "expect him to struggle because that's the norm" and "expect people to declare in 3 weeks that he's a failure, that he never should have been given this chance, that his approach is terrible, that he'll never even be an average catcher" when people were basically ready to declare him the successor to McCann.

 

Seriously, giving guys who destroy your AAA affiliate a 3 month shot to learn the entire major leagues is exactly how you make sure a franchise never develops anyone. If you need more proof that he's ready then don't call him up in June (which is what I was saying anyway). If you're only going to give a guy a 3 month stint to prove he's capable then you better be the most patient organization in the world with your callups because the guy better darn well be ready to hit the second he's called up, because a couple months is a useless measure for how a guy will develop long term.

[Chisoxfn]

Agreed, and I asked yesterday, which teams out there will be in the market for a catcher?

If the Angels hadn't pissed away half a billion dollars (or what seems like half a billion dollars) they could definitely use a catcher. Their last good catcher was the original Molina brother (Bengie!).

[caulfield12]

Agreed, and I asked yesterday, which teams out there will be in the market for a catcher?

 

The Rangers, if they don't keep AJ, for one.

 

What is Salty's status with the Red Sox? Napoli's not playing any catcher for them this year, is he?

 

The Indians could use a full-time catcher there with Santana more well-suited for 1B/DH.

 

Tigers, if they throw the towel in on Avila?

 

Yankees?

[caulfield12]

If the Angels hadn't pissed away half a billion dollars (or what seems like half a billion dollars) they could definitely use a catcher. Their last good catcher was the original Molina brother (Bengie!).

 

Unless you count Napoli as a "real catcher." Offensively, he was completely legit.

[Balta1701]

The Rangers, if they don't keep AJ, for one.

 

What is Salty's status with the Red Sox? Napoli's not playing any catcher for them this year, is he?

 

The Indians could use a full-time catcher there with Santana more well-suited for 1B/DH.

 

Tigers, if they throw the towel in on Avila?

 

Yankees?

Saltalamacchia is a free agent and I actually think he'd be a plausible guy to pair with Phegley on the Chisox next year.

[fathom]

PHEGLEY WALKED!

[Chisoxfn]

If you'd have written any of this in late June people would have scoffed at you. Phegley was tearing up Charlotte and people were furious that he was being denied the chance he had earned.

 

If he'd finished up his age 25 season in Charlotte the way he was the whole year, hitting .300+ with a nearly 1.000 OPS, then "He's done nothing to indicate he's going to be an above average catcher" would be just wrong because he'd have done exactly what you wanted him to do.

 

Yes he hadn't done that beforehand, but he basically lost an entire season and the team pushed him upwards anyway.

 

People were predicting how great he'd be when he came up based on how he was raking in Charlotte and I was the one being ignored when I said "expect him to struggle because that's the norm" and "expect people to declare in 3 weeks that he's a failure, that he never should have been given this chance, that his approach is terrible, that he'll never even be an average catcher" when people were basically ready to declare him the successor to McCann.

Except I would have said the same thing when he was hitting .300. When everyone was down on Josh for years, I always said he had the chance and tools to be a potential league average starting catcher and to be patient. You act like I'm writing him off, I'm not, but he doesn't have the pedigree or skill-set to get handed a starting job if he is completely awful in 60 major league games. I've always felt that was Pheg's potential upside and I've stopped what I'm doing to watch most of his at bats when I'm at home to see how he progresses.

 

I'm more concerned with his approach and swing then I am with the results. And the good scouts (and I hope the Sox talent evaluators) will be making their plans for next year based upon that (vs. results). Results certainly help but hell look at Beckham last year. He took off and I remember people declaring he was back...I was out there saying there is nothing that looks back at Beckham at the time. This year..I think Becks has safely turned the corner to the good. He's legitimately hitting the ball hard at all times and is just much more comfortable hitting the ball to all fields (swing is smoother and more consistent and should be a lot less maintenance, thus allowing him to be consistent).

 

I'm wrong all the time but your argument of everyone needs 2 years at the major league level to put up or shut up is complete nonsense and takes all the brains out of running and organization and having talent evaluators and drastically reduces the odds of turning good players. You need to make bets based upon your reports and use those reports and your knowledge to make educated guesses so that the guys you do give opportunities have higher rates of succeeding and turning into above average players. This way you give developmental time to those players worthy (and add veteran bats or bring in other young players to get the other at bats).

 

 

[fathom]

Stoney mentioned the other day that he thinks the Indians will make Gomes their starting catcher next year. Also, as much as I think McCann would be a great player for the Sox, I can't imagine him signing with a team that played so poorly this year.

[Chisoxfn]

Unless you count Napoli as a "real catcher." Offensively, he was completely legit.

Good point. Naps could definitely hit.

[Balta1701]

I'm wrong all the time but your argument of everyone needs 2 years at the major league level to put up or shut up is complete nonsense and takes all the brains out of running and organization and having talent evaluators and drastically reduces the odds of turning good players. You need to make bets based upon your reports and use those reports and your knowledge to make educated guesses so that the guys you do give opportunities have higher rates of succeeding and turning into above average players. This way you give developmental time to those players worthy (and add veteran bats or bring in other young players to get the other at bats).

If the White Sox's scouts reported that Phegley was only putting up good numbers in charlotte because of the weaker pitching and he'd never translate to the big leagues, the calling him up was literally nuts. Leave him in Charlotte, let him pile up the numbers and then use him as trade-bait for teams that have different reports on him.

 

They called him up and gave him the starting job. They would not have done so if their reports and knowledge didn't believe he could turn into an above average player. They wouldn't have done so had they thought he wasn't worthy of the development time.

[Chisoxfn]

Seriously, giving guys who destroy your AAA affiliate a 3 month shot to learn the entire major leagues is exactly how you make sure a franchise never develops anyone. If you need more proof that he's ready then don't call him up in June (which is what I was saying anyway). If you're only going to give a guy a 3 month stint to prove he's capable then you better be the most patient organization in the world with your callups because the guy better darn well be ready to hit the second he's called up, because a couple months is a useless measure for how a guy will develop long term.

Brian, there is a major difference in expectations of a 24/25 year old coming up who basically had played 1.5 years in AAA, had time in AA then there is for the AA kid coming up early when you are out of contention who you know still has a ways to go. If someone like Mike Trout at 19 comes up and struggles, I'm not calling him s***. When a 25 year old comes up and if he finishes the year hitting .210 showing no progress (given his past history and non-elite toolset, not top prospect, etc), I'm not giving him much time. Most of an organizations mediocre prospects could be so lucky to get 60 games to prove themselves.

 

The better organizations in baseball are giving their developmental bats to far more worthy prospects then some of the people the Sox are giving at bats too and it would be ignorant to think 60 games (+ a long minor league career) isn't a valid sample size to make long-term talent evaluations and expectations.

[beck72]

PHEGLEY WALKED!

My thoughts exactly!

[Chisoxfn]

If the White Sox's scouts reported that Phegley was only putting up good numbers in charlotte because of the weaker pitching and he'd never translate to the big leagues, the calling him up was literally nuts. Leave him in Charlotte, let him pile up the numbers and then use him as trade-bait for teams that have different reports on him.

 

They called him up and gave him the starting job. They would not have done so if their reports and knowledge didn't believe he could turn into an above average player. They wouldn't have done so had they thought he wasn't worthy of the development time.

Teams aren't knocking on the door to get a guy that wasn't one of our 7 best prospects in what is largely viewed as a weak system. I don't know what the heck value you think he had but given Flowers performance and Josh's performance there is zero reason you don't take a chance on the guy. Thats exactly what you do with fringe prospects. You say what the hell and give it a whirl..if they pan out great, if not oh well.