Rios, $1M traded to Rangers

[Balta1701]

Brian, there is a major difference in expectations of a 24/25 year old coming up who basically had played 1.5 years in AAA, had time in AA then there is for the AA kid coming up early when you are out of contention who you know still has a ways to go. If someone like Mike Trout at 19 comes up and struggles, I'm not calling him s***. When a 25 year old comes up and if he finishes the year hitting .210 showing no progress (given his past history and non-elite toolset, not top prospect, etc), I'm not giving him much time. Most of an organizations mediocre prospects could be so lucky to get 60 games to prove themselves.

 

The better organizations in baseball are giving their developmental bats to far more worthy prospects then some of the people the Sox are giving at bats too and it would be ignorant to think 60 games (+ a long minor league career) isn't a valid sample size to make long-term talent evaluations and expectations.

If you're not paying any attention to the circumstances that caused Josh Phegley to be a 25 year old repeating Charlotte then you're totally missing the boat. In a normal progression he'd have been 24 this year but he totally lost a year, and they still continued to promote him rather than having him repeat the level he would have been at before his serious medical issues started.

 

The better organizations in baseball realize when a guy with talent had a setback that he overcame. They don't cast them aside based on the number.

 

That's literally why we have De Aza, for example. The Marlins cast him aside for other guys and we got a very solid MLB player out of it.

[caulfield12]

Along the line of those thoughts, why not give a bunch of at-bats to Mitchell the final two months, instead of Tekotte or Danks? Maybe he'll catch fire (miraculously)...who knows? It's highly unlikely, but we KNOW that Danks and Tekotte aren't everyday players. We also know exactly what we have in DeAza.

[caulfield12]

If you're not paying any attention to the circumstances that caused Josh Phegley to be a 25 year old repeating Charlotte then you're totally missing the boat. In a normal progression he'd have been 24 this year but he totally lost a year, and they still continued to promote him rather than having him repeat the level he would have been at before his serious medical issues started.

 

The better organizations in baseball realize when a guy with talent had a setback that he overcame. They don't cast them aside based on the number.

 

That's literally why we have De Aza, for example. The Marlins cast him aside for other guys and we got a very solid MLB player out of it.

 

The same way we ended up with Quentin, along with injury/HBP concerns.

[fathom]

Along the line of those thoughts, why not give a bunch of at-bats to Mitchell the final two months, instead of Tekotte or Danks? Maybe he'll catch fire (miraculously)...who knows? It's highly unlikely, but we KNOW that Danks and Tekotte aren't everyday players. We also know exactly what we have in DeAza.

 

Hahn talked about Mitchell yesterday, and he said that Buddy Bell and Thome went to see him in Birmingham and made a few tweaks to his swing

[caulfield12]

Hahn talked about Mitchell yesterday, and he said that Buddy Bell and Thome went to see him in Birmingham and made a few tweaks to his swing

 

Thanks, haven't been able to pay as much attention the last month or so....knew Bell wouldn't give up on, at least he has ONE supporter still left.

[Chisoxfn]

If you're not paying any attention to the circumstances that caused Josh Phegley to be a 25 year old repeating Charlotte then you're totally missing the boat. In a normal progression he'd have been 24 this year but he totally lost a year, and they still continued to promote him rather than having him repeat the level he would have been at before his serious medical issues started.

 

The better organizations in baseball realize when a guy with talent had a setback that he overcame. They don't cast them aside based on the number.

 

That's literally why we have De Aza, for example. The Marlins cast him aside for other guys and we got a very solid MLB player out of it.

Come on...I've forgotten more about the White Sox system then most people ever knew about our minor leagues. I know damn well about Phegley and you are just being a pompous ass. You are just uttering a bunch of nonsense. No baseball team or organization would ever run themselves the way you are claiming. Maybe the Padres or some loser organization that has a 30M payroll but let me know when the Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox, Braves start handing at bats to middling prospects just because they had one great year in AAA. They hand their at bats to good prospects and the medicore ones get a little shot and then are gone. And the medciore prospects in some of those systems would be good prospects in our system.

 

The solution to player development isn't just giving guys that aren't very good more at bats. That doesn't prove anything.

[beck72]

Beckham crushed the ball at the major league level for half a season, was a high 1st round draft pick, tore up the minors, and was one of the best prospects in all of baseball. You will never hear anyone describe Phegley as anything of the sort. Major difference. Oh and Beckham also plays well above average defense at 2B so even if his bat was struggling, you got value on the other side of the ball.

 

Viciedo was given a pretty big contract out of cuba, hit at all levels (despite being young for his age) and has shown plus offensive tools and in streaks has been a hell of a productive player. You can see the potential. Even Viciedo is to the point that next year is his last year with the Sox to prove himself. If he doesn't take big steps forward, he's done with our club and can go somewhere else.

 

Phegley, too his credit has had to overcome a lot of issues, and that makes it harder to judge him, but he had one .700 OPS season or better in the minors entering this year and in almost a full season at AAA last year (where he was age appropriate) he put up a .680 OPS. He doesn't bring excellent defensive tools to the equation (although to his credit he's made himself a much better defensive player then anyone thought he would be coming out of college). There is nothing about his past production or to be frank his toolset which would make me want to hand him a starting job next year (unless of course he makes progress in his time at the major league level). And I'm not writing him off in 22 major league games, but he wasn't going to get near as long of a rope based upon his performance in the minors and overall tools. By the end of the year he'll likely have 50-60 games under his belt and if he's still hitting .210 with a poor approach and what looks to be a slow bat, then if I were the GM, I'd be looking for someone else to be our catcher.

 

Tyler Flowers....dude is hitting under .200 in a career 186 major league games and has shown almost no improvements at the plate. Again, what makes me as an organization want to give him another year? Nothing.

 

The difference in career offensive performance between Viciedo and Flowers / Phegley (at the major league level) has been pretty drastic. In FLowers case, he had some great minor league production and a better offensive tool-set (e.g., good patience and tons of power) which led me to be more willing to be patient. For all the b****ing about Viciedo, he put up a .744 OPS last year (w/25 hr's). It is scary how his power production has subsided this year though. Two weeks ago I was talking about the progress Dayan has made but boy he is having a hard time getting the most out of his tools at the plate right now. However, the 25 hr's in the majors at 23, along with the minor league production (and of course tools...he's got a quick ass bat), make me willing to be more patient with him. His upside is that of an above average offensive player.

 

I don't see Josh Phegley's upside of being an above average starting catcher. His upside is an average to slightly below average all around catcher (at best...if he completely maximized his skill-set, which is rare) and his floor is a whole lot worse, imo. His most likely scenario (in my opinion) is that of a backup catcher / career AAAA er.

Well said! There isn't much to disagree with here for me. Few position players have this chance to prove themselves at the major league level for such an extended period of time like Gillaspie, Flowers, Phegley, Jordan Danks this year with the sox. Even Takotte and Casper Wells have had more chances than they should have. Guys like Viciedo and Beckham are everyday players. If their futures are with the sox, they have to produce this year and next. Beckham's stellar defense has given him the extra time to work things out at the plate. Viciedo needs to hit for power and a decent avg. or his value for the sox at least, is minimal.

[Balta1701]

Come on...I've forgotten more about the White Sox system then most people ever knew about our minor leagues. I know damn well about Phegley and you are just being a pompous ass. You are just uttering a bunch of nonsense. No baseball team or organization would ever run themselves the way you are claiming. Maybe the Padres or some loser organization that has a 30M payroll but let me know when the Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox, Braves start handing at bats to middling prospects just because they had one great year in AAA. They hand their at bats to good prospects and the medicore ones get a little shot and then are gone. And the medciore prospects in some of those systems would be good prospects in our system.

 

The solution to player development isn't just giving guys that aren't very good more at bats. That doesn't prove anything.

I really wish you were here when people were furious in May that Phegley wasn't up yet and declaring him the next big thing.

[Chisoxfn]

The same way we ended up with Quentin, along with injury/HBP concerns.

Let me know when Phegley was rated as one of the 50 best prospects in all of baseball. Quentin was rated as BA's #22 and #20 prospect in 2004 and 2005 respectively. Phegley isn't (even after his AAA season) a top 200 prospect...probably not a top 250 prospect.

[Balta1701]

Let me know when Phegley was rated as one of the 50 best prospects in all of baseball. Quentin was rated as BA's #22 and #20 prospect in 2004 and 2005 respectively. Phegley isn't (even after his AAA season) a top 200 prospect...probably not a top 250 prospect.

How many guys are ranked in the top 50 prospects in all of baseball when they're on the DL having their spleen removed? Come on man.

[Chisoxfn]

I really wish you were here when people were furious in May that Phegley wasn't up yet and declaring him the next big thing.

People declaring him the next big thing were foolish. Look at any write-up I ever did on Phegley or any post I ever made. And what is foolish about giving the guy the chance. Look at what people said even when he was drafted. People make a lot of stupid statements, don't judge my statement based upon other peoples stupid opinions. Not that it matters but I wasn't offered a job as a professional scout because I know nothing about talent and tools.

 

When you have a starting catcher who has a career avg under .200 and a guy like Phegley tearing it up why the hell not give him the chance. And I haven't finalized my evaluation...you act like I'm sold on him after 22 games. I still think he has the ability to be at best a league average to slightly below league average starter (which is pretty consistent with my thoughts from the moment he was drafted). By the end of the year, I'd think we'd have a better idea of whether he has that upside or not. This off-season the club has a potential chance at a difference maker and if you are going to contend you have to decide who deserves ab's from within the system and who probably doesn't (and can we get other guys that could give us better production, etc). And by the end of the year, the Sox should be able to put %'s, etc on what Phegley will be and decide from a cost/benefit perspective what the right decision is.

[Chisoxfn]

How many guys are ranked in the top 50 prospects in all of baseball when they're on the DL having their spleen removed? Come on man.

I don't mean to sound harsh but it wasn't as if he hasn't been playing the past 2 years (his spleen was removed in December 2010). You can't compare Carlos Quentin to Josh Phegley. You seriously can't. Jesus, you act like I'm calling him a bum. I'm just saying your approach of giving everyone 2 years is completely asinine and tiresome. At this point, your, just give them 2 years argument makes you no better then Marty and you are much smarter then that. How much of Casper Wells or Blake Tekotte do you have to watch to realize they suck and shouldn't be given starters at bats?

 

Good organizations give the most of their major league at bats to either good players or players who have the ability to develop into good players. That doesn't mean all of them pan out but loser organizations are giving excessive amount of at bats to players the quality of Blake Tekotte. Having to give at bats to those type of players is an indication on the type of offensive prospects and talent you have (or more specifically the lack of talent you have...or at least talent which is near major league ready).

 

By the way, if Trayce Thompson came up and hit .150 for the entire rest of the year, I wouldn't call him s***. I wouldn't hand him a starting job next year either but I certainly wouldn't write him up. Why, because I know he's a raw prospect who still has a lot of strides to make at the plate and being patient could really turn out to be valuable. Note, I don't actually endorse calling him up either at this point because he has a lot to learn still at the minor league level. But if this team had a bad rotation and was in a full complete rebuild, then I might have a different opinion on the matter and might say let him learn at the big league level.

[beck72]

If you're not paying any attention to the circumstances that caused Josh Phegley to be a 25 year old repeating Charlotte then you're totally missing the boat. In a normal progression he'd have been 24 this year but he totally lost a year, and they still continued to promote him rather than having him repeat the level he would have been at before his serious medical issues started.

 

The better organizations in baseball realize when a guy with talent had a setback that he overcame. They don't cast them aside based on the number.

 

That's literally why we have De Aza, for example. The Marlins cast him aside for other guys and we got a very solid MLB player out of it.

The sox are or have trotted out many of these types this year-Gillaspie; Flowers; Phegley; Takotte; Casper Wells; Jordan Danks. Along with a slew of pitchers. People are getting chances. It's up to them if they do anything with them. Going into next year with these same guys getting chances [if they haven't done much with the extended play] isn't a way to build a winning team.

[fathom]

The sox are or have trotted out many of these types this year-Gillaspie; Flowers; Phegley; Takotte; Casper Wells; Jordan Danks. Along with a slew of pitchers. People are getting chances. It's up to them if they do anything with them. Going into next year with these same guys getting chances [if they haven't done much with the extended play] isn't a way to build a winning team.

 

Of that list, only Phegley and Gillaspie should get another chance next year. However, both guys are probably better off being bench players.

[oldsox]

Back to McCann.. His salary this year is $12MM.

[Chisoxfn]

The sox are or have trotted out many of these types this year-Gillaspie; Flowers; Phegley; Takotte; Casper Wells; Jordan Danks. Along with a slew of pitchers. People are getting chances. It's up to them if they do anything with them. Going into next year with these same guys getting chances [if they haven't done much with the extended play] isn't a way to build a winning team.

No...doing that is a way to be the laughing stock of baseball.

 

And De Aza came up, played his ass of at camp, played well in Charlotte, earned a call-up, played well, and earned a starting job. He was never given a year of sucking ass, he produced, grabbed more at bats, and earned that s***. The White Sox weren't going to give him a year of ab's just because. They gave him more at bats because he played well and showed that he was a pretty good player and that there was a reason the Marlins were going to make them their starter prior to breaking his leg.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

Back to McCann.. His salary this year is $12MM.

If the Sox could sign McCann and Morneau and put together a few bullpen arms they could be a contender next season. The problem is convincing them to sign with the Sox.

[Quin]

If the Sox could sign McCann and Morneau and put together a few bullpen arms they could be a contender next season. The problem is convincing them to sign with the Sox.

 

Morneau will never, ever sign with the White Sox.

 

Go for McCann and Morales, if you can dump Danks or Dunn, go for Ellsbury as well.

[caulfield12]

Morneau, FWIW, should be a lot easier than McCann, simply because of his familiarity with the AL Central, the closeness of the two cities (Minneapolis and Chicago, as Justin's Canadian and being a big hockey fan in a city with the Blackhawks couldn't hurt) and proximity to the border.

 

McCann will be 10X tougher to bring on. Hahn would have to do an incredible sales job.

 

But if he can bring his season total up to 20+ homers (6 more to go), he'll start to get some really legit offers and we might even lose him too. It's getting to the point where the risk/reward is falling and the bigger contract (years/dollars makes him a more iffy proposition.

Edited August 10, 2013 by caulfield12

[iamshack]

How long are you willing to give Viciedo?

At this point, may as well give him the rest of this season and next. He has little to no trade value and we have no one else to give the PA's to.

[Marty34]

I don't mean to sound harsh but it wasn't as if he hasn't been playing the past 2 years (his spleen was removed in December 2010). You can't compare Carlos Quentin to Josh Phegley. You seriously can't. Jesus, you act like I'm calling him a bum. I'm just saying your approach of giving everyone 2 years is completely asinine and tiresome. At this point, your, just give them 2 years argument makes you no better then Marty and you are much smarter then that. How much of Casper Wells or Blake Tekotte do you have to watch to realize they suck and shouldn't be given starters at bats?

 

Good organizations give the most of their major league at bats to either good players or players who have the ability to develop into good players. That doesn't mean all of them pan out but loser organizations are giving excessive amount of at bats to players the quality of Blake Tekotte. Having to give at bats to those type of players is an indication on the type of offensive prospects and talent you have (or more specifically the lack of talent you have...or at least talent which is near major league ready).

 

By the way, if Trayce Thompson came up and hit .150 for the entire rest of the year, I wouldn't call him s***. I wouldn't hand him a starting job next year either but I certainly wouldn't write him up. Why, because I know he's a raw prospect who still has a lot of strides to make at the plate and being patient could really turn out to be valuable. Note, I don't actually endorse calling him up either at this point because he has a lot to learn still at the minor league level. But if this team had a bad rotation and was in a full complete rebuild, then I might have a different opinion on the matter and might say let him learn at the big league level.

 

Please. You pseudo-prospect and stat guys slay me. For all the grief took for not liking Viciedo, looks like I was right.

[Chisoxfn]

Please. You pseudo-prospect and stat guys slay me. For all the grief took for not liking Viciedo, looks like I was right.

Its easy to look smart when you don't like any prospects. The majority of prospects fail so statistically you'll be right more often then not.

[Marty34]

Its easy to look smart when you don't like any prospects. The majority of prospects fail so statistically you'll be right more often then not.

 

It's easy to shrug and hide behind most prospects fail anyway argument too.

[greg775]

If the Sox could sign McCann and Morneau and put together a few bullpen arms they could be a contender next season. The problem is convincing them to sign with the Sox.

 

Now that's a helluva post. We're Chicago. Why not??? This excites me.

[iamshack]

Well, just for the record, as much as I never liked Dayan, I like what I see out of Garcia. He'll probably never be an absolute stud because of the aggressiveness, but I think the Maggio comparison is a good one minus the plate discipline. He does have a bit more speed than Magglio had though.