Make a case for a new manager in 2014

[GreenSox]

One thing he routinely does is to refuse to use a better reliever in a high leverage situation if it isn't in the last 35% of the game. If a pitcher is in trouble in the 4th, out comes the worst arm in the pen. The 2nd Detroit game, down 2, 4th inning or so with Detroit runners on and 2 outs, he goes to the back of the pen, saving the better reliever for later in the game. Well, there was nothing to save them after for after that inning. That's happened on numerous occasions this year.

He's also put a ton of pitches on the young starters. Last year, we were in a race, so there perhaps was a case to be made. But pitching these guys 120 pitches for this team? Absurd.

[Eminor3rd]

One thing he routinely does is to refuse to use a better reliever in a high leverage situation if it isn't in the last 35% of the game. If a pitcher is in trouble in the 4th, out comes the worst arm in the pen.

 

You just described practically every single Major League manager.

[witesoxfan]

One thing he routinely does is to refuse to use a better reliever in a high leverage situation if it isn't in the last 35% of the game. If a pitcher is in trouble in the 4th, out comes the worst arm in the pen. The 2nd Detroit game, down 2, 4th inning or so with Detroit runners on and 2 outs, he goes to the back of the pen, saving the better reliever for later in the game. Well, there was nothing to save them after for after that inning. That's happened on numerous occasions this year.

He's also put a ton of pitches on the young starters. Last year, we were in a race, so there perhaps was a case to be made. But pitching these guys 120 pitches for this team? Absurd.

 

Had he used the best reliever in the 4th inning, and a situation arose in the 8th with runners on 1st and 2nd with 1 out and he went to Omogrosso or Castro or Heath, and said pitcher gave up a double, what would your reaction have been?

[TaylorStSox]

I would have agreed with you so much more had i not lived through 2011 and 2012 with the white sox. Those 2 seasons convinced me that a manager can really do enormous things for a baseball franchise, because I saw it happen.

I think that was a pretty extreme case. Ozzie was such an egomaniac that I wouldn't put it passed him to try to sabotage the team to spite the front office. In that case, a manager can absolutely kill a team. Generally, I rank baseball manager somewhere between hitting coach and football equipment manager in terms of their importance to the outcome of a game.

 

I also think Coop probably has more pull in the decision making process than the majority of other coaches. For example, I'd wager that pitch counts are coming straight from Cooper. He seems to trust the pitcher in that situation. If Sale and Peavy say they feel good, they've earned the benefit of the doubt.

[greg775]

All I can say is now I know how I sound and sounded to you guys when defending Ozzie. I won't argue it any more because just as you couldn't get through to me and can't get through to me regarding my love of Ozzie, I won't be able to get through to you about Robin.

[Kyyle23]

All I can say is now I know how I sound and sounded to you guys when defending Ozzie. I won't argue it any more because just as you couldn't get through to me and can't get through to me regarding my love of Ozzie, I won't be able to get through to you about Robin.

 

And both times it is you against pretty much everyone. Strange how that works.

 

How many titles has Ozzie won in Miami? How many parades has he ridden in?

[Baron]

And both times it is you against pretty much everyone. Strange how that works.

 

How many titles has Ozzie won in Miami? How many parades has he ridden in?

 

Damn those facts

[greg775]

And both times it is you against pretty much everyone. Strange how that works.

 

How many titles has Ozzie won in Miami? How many parades has he ridden in?

 

I'm just amazed that people aren't burying Robin for the collapse last year followed by this 17 below .500 first half. It's the worst performance by a baseball team this season. I'm thinking it's all because he's so quiet. Let's face it, nobody cares about White Sox baseball except us diehards. With Robin making no noise except uttering the cliches, I'm surprised you guys refuse to bury Robin or at least agree he deserves an F for his first-half managing, dating all the way to spring training. Every aspect of this team except starting pitching and closing has been a disaster.

Ozzie is gone because of his mouth. He'll never return cause of his mouth.

 

I love Robin the player. I just am concerned about his ability to manage and/or inspire players to not make boneheaded mistakes and/or choke.

Edited July 16, 2013 by greg775

[greg775]

Damn those facts

 

Ozzie buried himself by talking about things other than baseball with media. He let his ego ruin a good career in the game of baseball. He'll never be back, except POSSIBLY as a coach if an owner lets a manager hire him as third base coach again.

[LittleHurt05]

I'm just amazed that people aren't burying Robin for the collapse last year followed by this 17 below .500 first half. It's the worst performance by a baseball team this season. I'm thinking it's all because he's so quiet. Let's face it, nobody cares about White Sox baseball except us diehards. With Robin making no noise except uttering the cliches, I'm surprised you guys refuse to bury Robin or at least agree he deserves an F for his first-half managing, dating all the way to spring training. Every aspect of this team except starting pitching and closing has been a disaster.

Ozzie is gone because of his mouth. He'll never return cause of his mouth.

 

I love Robin the player. I just am concerned about his ability to manage and/or inspire players to not make boneheaded mistakes and/or choke.

 

If you want to give Robin an F for September 2012, that's fine, but you still have yet to explain what he did wrong. What should he have done differently? With all the jumps in innings pitched and lineup injuries, what was his major fault? Maybe he should have played his bench more during the season, but everyone complained about how s***ty the bench is. (Your all-word manager Terry Francona orchestrated a far, far worse September collapse in his last job, why does he get a pass?)

 

And I disagree that no one is blaming Robin at all. The bad defense and baserunning directly points to him. However, this is a flawed roster and he's a 2nd-year manager, most people don't see a a point in burning him at the stake like you want to do. Give him some more time at the helm and if the roster improves, then you can make a decision. Right now his two best hitters are Rios & Dunn, who according to you, one is a bum and the other has no place in a professional lineup. So Robin's players are garbage, but it's all his fault. Gotcha.

[witesoxfan]

If you want to give Robin an F for September 2012, that's fine, but you still have yet to explain what he did wrong. What should he have done differently? With all the jumps in innings pitched and lineup injuries, what was his major fault? Maybe he should have played his bench more during the season, but everyone complained about how s***ty the bench is. (Your all-word manager Terry Francona orchestrated a far, far worse September collapse in his last job, why does he get a pass?)

 

And I disagree that no one is blaming Robin at all. The bad defense and baserunning directly points to him. However, this is a flawed roster and he's a 2nd-year manager, most people don't see a a point in burning him at the stake like you want to do. Give him some more time at the helm and if the roster improves, then you can make a decision. Right now his two best hitters are Rios & Dunn, who according to you, one is a bum and the other has no place in a professional lineup. So Robin's players are garbage, but it's all his fault. Gotcha.

 

Got damn that post

[LVSoxFan]

In my non-expert opinion you keep Ventura as a "placeholder" manager until you've started a rebuild and once that's taken care of then you can go get a Terry Francona.

 

IMO priority #1 is blowing up this team and rebooting the farm system that has been neglected for so long. We're in for a tough couple of years but that's how it works unless you're the Yankees.

 

Plus, would a big-time manager want to come in and take over with this collection of fading players and underperformers? I would think they'd be more interested in taking over a young team with a franchise player or two so they could mold them.

[witesoxfan]

In my mind, actually blowing this team up and starting from the bottom is dumb, and beyond that, management has already stated they are not rebuilding. They intend to do this quickly again, which people will b**** about, it with the pitching staff, it's smart. Spend wisely, and this team could be in the hunt next year and ready to be really competitive or favored in 2015. Rotations like the Sox don't come around very often.

[LVSoxFan]

Which is kind of irrelevant when you can't hit, don't you think?

[witesoxfan]

Which is kind of irrelevant when you can't hit, don't you think?

 

Which is kind of relevant when you can build an offense pretty easily in an offseason or two, don't you think?

[elrockinMT]

Until Ventura is under contract for 2014, the option to choose "Neither" remains.

 

where is El Senor when you need him?

[NorthSideSox72]

Robin definitely deserves plenty of blame. But with 2012 and 2013 being such divergent stories, I don't think we'll really know who he is as a manager until he plays out at least part of 2014, when he will inevitably have a very different roster.

 

[southsider2k5]

In my mind, actually blowing this team up and starting from the bottom is dumb, and beyond that, management has already stated they are not rebuilding. They intend to do this quickly again, which people will b**** about, it with the pitching staff, it's smart. Spend wisely, and this team could be in the hunt next year and ready to be really competitive or favored in 2015. Rotations like the Sox don't come around very often.

 

I haven't seen them say they aren't rebuilding, only that you won't hear it announced if they are.

[Eminor3rd]

Robin definitely deserves plenty of blame. But with 2012 and 2013 being such divergent stories, I don't think we'll really know who he is as a manager until he plays out at least part of 2014, when he will inevitably have a very different roster.

 

How can you say that definitively? I'm not trying to challenge you, I just want to know what people are looking at when they are deciding that RV is the reason this team is losing. Because to me, it's because they suck at hitting and defense. Is RV not requiring them to practice hitting and defense? If that's the case, then sure, but otherwise, I think the players are just f***ing sucking. All his pitching change problems combined don't add up to be nearly the problem than the team offense right now.

[witesoxfan]

I haven't seen them say they aren't rebuilding, only that you won't hear it announced if they are.

 

The next 6 months will dictate a lot, but I really don't think they are going to go into a massive sell off. They will certainly deal pieces, but I don't think there will be a total overhaul, at least anymore than was already expected.

[Dick Allen]

How can you say that definitively? I'm not trying to challenge you, I just want to know what people are looking at when they are deciding that RV is the reason this team is losing. Because to me, it's because they suck at hitting and defense. Is RV not requiring them to practice hitting and defense? If that's the case, then sure, but otherwise, I think the players are just f***ing sucking. All his pitching change problems combined don't add up to be nearly the problem than the team offense right now.

Not only that but Hawk has been saying for a couple of weeks, the Sox are working on their defense and fundamentals just as much if not more than last year. He mentioned they did in spring training as well.

 

As much as it is unusual in 2013, sometimes you actually have to blame the person who is screwing up for screwing up.

[LittleHurt05]

How can you say that definitively? I'm not trying to challenge you, I just want to know what people are looking at when they are deciding that RV is the reason this team is losing. Because to me, it's because they suck at hitting and defense. Is RV not requiring them to practice hitting and defense? If that's the case, then sure, but otherwise, I think the players are just f***ing sucking. All his pitching change problems combined don't add up to be nearly the problem than the team offense right now.

 

All the baserunning gaffes usually point to the manager a little bit IMO, but obviously he can't teach players to stop being dumb. It just seems like there is a lack of focus out there on defense and on the basepaths, and usually you look at the manager to wake his guys up. Of course there is only so much Robin can do, and there is very little he can do with the offense right now.

[NorthSideSox72]

All the baserunning gaffes usually point to the manager a little bit IMO, but obviously he can't teach players to stop being dumb. It just seems like there is a lack of focus out there on defense and on the basepaths, and usually you look at the manager to wake his guys up. Of course there is only so much Robin can do, and there is very little he can do with the offense right now.

That pretty much covers it for me. Defense and baserunning gaffes, from a team of mostly the same personnel who did great with it last year... the manager deserves some of the blame for that, in my mind.

 

[LVSoxFan]

Which is kind of relevant when you can build an offense pretty easily in an offseason or two, don't you think?

 

I don't know, can you?

 

I'm just tired of hearing for years about how our farm system blows as KW tries to make us a contender by making some "splash" trade, Adam Dunn being the most egregious example.

 

What are we now, 28th?

 

Another thing I didn't think about until reading this blog is how bad our draft picks have turned out:

 

A quick rundown of the recent picks looks like this: 2003 Brian Anderson, trying to come back as a pitcher; 2004 Josh Fields in minors with Philadelphia; 2005 Lance Broadway out of baseball; Kyle McCulloch, 2006, out of baseball; 2007 Aaron Poreda, part of Peavy trade, last seen released by Pirates in 2013; 2009 Jared Mitchell, still only 24, but hasn’t made much progress beyond double A; 2010 Sale; 2012 Courtney Hawkins 19 years old, currently in rookie ball. Looking over that roster of bad and considering how the high minors are treated by the White Sox, I’m worried about two things. First, I don’t see much reason to have faith that the White Sox are good judges of talent. Sale and Beckham in the last ten years doesn’t seem like a very good track record. I could be wrong, but it seems like first round picks should be a better bet of making it to the major league team. The second worry is that Hahn and company will make some trades, but basically pick up high minor leaguers, or worse marginal major leaguers, because that is all that is available, hoping to catch lightening in a bottle, if only for a short time (see: Podsednik, Scott.)

 

So what's the non-blowing-up way to fix the team then, since you're against it (no sarcasm intended)?

[southsider2k5]

I don't know, can you?

 

I'm just tired of hearing for years about how our farm system blows as KW tries to make us a contender by making some "splash" trade, Adam Dunn being the most egregious example.

 

What are we now, 28th?

 

Another thing I didn't think about until reading this blog is how bad our draft picks have turned out:

 

 

 

So what's the non-blowing-up way to fix the team then, since you're against it (no sarcasm intended)?

 

The first I see is that he has Hawkins in the wrong level of the minors.