Make a case for a new manager in 2014

[greg775]

Robin definitely deserves plenty of blame. But with 2012 and 2013 being such divergent stories, I don't think we'll really know who he is as a manager until he plays out at least part of 2014, when he will inevitably have a very different roster.

 

Great post. That's all I want. Fans to blame Robin some. I like Robin. I have no problem with him continuing as manager. But his staff has failed miserably this season. That's OK. I don't want him to be fired. I'm just laughing because if the former manager had orchestrated this first half ... wow, he'd be run out of town. This team looks like it is managed by Andy the Clown, God rest Andy's soul.

[Y2Jimmy0]

Great post. That's all I want. Fans to blame Robin some. I like Robin. I have no problem with him continuing as manager. But his staff has failed miserably this season. That's OK. I don't want him to be fired. I'm just laughing because if the former manager had orchestrated this first half ... wow, he'd be run out of town. This team looks like it is managed by Andy the Clown, God rest Andy's soul.

 

 

I think blaming this season on the coaching staff is really lazy. You could bring any coaching staff in this season and the Sox are still one of the 5 worst teams in baseball. The one thing Robin does that drives me nuts is he gives away too many outs. I don't think his staff has failed miserably though.

[LittleHurt05]

Great post. That's all I want. Fans to blame Robin some. I like Robin. I have no problem with him continuing as manager. But his staff has failed miserably this season. That's OK. I don't want him to be fired. I'm just laughing because if the former manager had orchestrated this first half ... wow, he'd be run out of town. This team looks like it is managed by Andy the Clown, God rest Andy's soul.

 

Why wasn't the former manager run out of town in 2007? That team was hot garbage as well.

[LVSoxFan]

Why wasn't the former manager run out of town in 2007? That team was hot garbage as well.

 

Because he still had the glow of 2005 WS on him.

 

I remember that season and how awful it was. I think this is even worse.

 

I think what we're looking at is the ole' chicken-or-the-egg conundrum about an awful team: is it the managers or the players? How can you tell until one is removed? I'm fine with Robin for at least another year providing we make some big changes on the field. Then perhaps we'll have a better read.

 

That said, and I'm going to get shelled for this: Beckham. Is he a bust, or isn't he? Somebody decide. Yes his defense is great but so was Brian Anderson's. I don't know what to say about him--personally I like the guy.

[Leonard Zelig]

Maybe you have forgotten, but he had won World Series less than 2 years earlier.

[witesoxfan]

I don't know, can you?

 

I'm just tired of hearing for years about how our farm system blows as KW tries to make us a contender by making some "splash" trade, Adam Dunn being the most egregious example.

 

What are we now, 28th?

 

Another thing I didn't think about until reading this blog is how bad our draft picks have turned out:

 

 

 

So what's the non-blowing-up way to fix the team then, since you're against it (no sarcasm intended)?

 

The White Sox farm system didn't get any worse when Dunn was brought in - the White Sox signed him.

 

Subjective rankings of farm systems throughout the majors doesn't do a whole lot either. "Mr. Baseball Expert thinks the White Sox are 28th, which means it's bad!" except that he may have a bias against the system or may not have a good scout or may have seen players on a bad day or what have you. It's not a great system, but there's some high ceiling talent in the system, they have a decent amount of pitching, and they are starting to spend in Latin America. All of this is irrelevant to the main point, but it's there.

 

Regardless, 5 of the 6 primary starters the Sox have used this year have been minor league acquisitions somehow, someway.

 

Anyways, I'd try to acquire a few talented outfielders plus a 3B at the deadline. Then sign a few free agents. Bring in a new 1B, with the top name on my personal list being Kedrys Morales. If they're willing to spend a lot, perhaps Shin-Soo Choo for the outfield; if not, Beltran and Granderson's names have been bounced around here quite a bit too. Michael Morse and Jason Kubel are possibilities too.

 

If they get lucky with Choo (I believe Boras is his agent, so this almost certainly won't happen, but for hypothetical purposes), sign Morales, sign Beltran, and bring in a young 3B prospect (we'll just leave this as Gillaspie in the lineup below)in a trade while Peavy, Rios, and De Aza are dealt away, you can run out a lineup of...

 

Choo - CF

Beckham - 2B

Beltran - RF

Dunn - DH/1B

Morales - 1B/DH

Phegley - C

Gillaspie - 3B

Viciedo - LF

Ramirez - SS

 

It's not a great lineup, but it's improved from last year while likely adding only one long-term deal in Choo and I would say $35 million in payroll (figure $18 Choo, $10 Beltran, $7 Morales, but it may be up to $40 or, if you work the contract out right, could be as little as $30 this year). There are spots that can be upgraded if the time comes and if it fails, there are still pieces you can deal. On top, you've improved the depth of the minor league system and your rotation of Sale-Quintana-Santiago-Danks-Johnson really isn't that bad either.

[LVSoxFan]

Well I must say you certainly provide a plan when asked!

 

Better than I could ever do...

[Y2Jimmy0]

The White Sox farm system didn't get any worse when Dunn was brought in - the White Sox signed him.

 

Subjective rankings of farm systems throughout the majors doesn't do a whole lot either. "Mr. Baseball Expert thinks the White Sox are 28th, which means it's bad!" except that he may have a bias against the system or may not have a good scout or may have seen players on a bad day or what have you. It's not a great system, but there's some high ceiling talent in the system, they have a decent amount of pitching, and they are starting to spend in Latin America. All of this is irrelevant to the main point, but it's there.

 

Regardless, 5 of the 6 primary starters the Sox have used this year have been minor league acquisitions somehow, someway.

 

Anyways, I'd try to acquire a few talented outfielders plus a 3B at the deadline. Then sign a few free agents. Bring in a new 1B, with the top name on my personal list being Kedrys Morales. If they're willing to spend a lot, perhaps Shin-Soo Choo for the outfield; if not, Beltran and Granderson's names have been bounced around here quite a bit too. Michael Morse and Jason Kubel are possibilities too.

 

If they get lucky with Choo (I believe Boras is his agent, so this almost certainly won't happen, but for hypothetical purposes), sign Morales, sign Beltran, and bring in a young 3B prospect (we'll just leave this as Gillaspie in the lineup below)in a trade while Peavy, Rios, and De Aza are dealt away, you can run out a lineup of...

 

Choo - CF

Beckham - 2B

Beltran - RF

Dunn - DH/1B

Morales - 1B/DH

Phegley - C

Gillaspie - 3B

Viciedo - LF

Ramirez - SS

 

It's not a great lineup, but it's improved from last year while likely adding only one long-term deal in Choo and I would say $35 million in payroll (figure $18 Choo, $10 Beltran, $7 Morales, but it may be up to $40 or, if you work the contract out right, could be as little as $30 this year). There are spots that can be upgraded if the time comes and if it fails, there are still pieces you can deal. On top, you've improved the depth of the minor league system and your rotation of Sale-Quintana-Santiago-Danks-Johnson really isn't that bad either.

 

 

This would actually work too because if they are bad they could flip Beltran and Morales.

[caulfield12]

This would actually work too because if they are bad they could flip Beltran and Morales.

 

When's the last time one of the three or four worst teams in the majors added 3 of the Top 10-12 off-season free agent targets and spent more than $30-35-40 million (combined average) on three players that were all in their 30's?

 

The Marlins spent that money on Reyes, Bell and Buehrle, but you can argue that it was 90% because they were opening up a brand new stadium behind a new manager...but Choo, Beltran and Morales would be three players all in the second half of their careers.

 

Those would be moves more similar to what the White Sox did before 2005, although they didn't have to pay top dollar for any of those guys like Dye, AJ or Iguchi...the only big overpay was El Duque, at around $6.5 million if I remember correctly.

 

Just find it hard to imagine Beltran coming off a World Series/playoff team and his best offer coming from the White Sox.

 

Someone like the Giants will be more than willing to bring him back.

[Eminor3rd]

Great post. That's all I want. Fans to blame Robin some. I like Robin. I have no problem with him continuing as manager. But his staff has failed miserably this season. That's OK. I don't want him to be fired. I'm just laughing because if the former manager had orchestrated this first half ... wow, he'd be run out of town. This team looks like it is managed by Andy the Clown, God rest Andy's soul.

 

The big difference that you are not mentioning, Greg, is that Ozzie was a total cancer to the clubhouse and front office. He was making headlines with controversial remarks about the players and the administration on a regular basis, and dividing the roster into favored and unfavored camps. When players were asked about his antics, they consistently replied cautiously with veiled non-answers that clearly implied that he was a distraction.

 

Absolutely NONE of this is true about RV. I'm not saying that RV is awesome, but he is doing nothing to suggest that he is a negative force on this bad team.

 

I'm not trying to suggest that RV deserves none of the blame -- he is, after all, a part of this team. But I can't point to anything that suggests he is a bigger part of the failure than any starting player, and that was just not true about Ozzie.

Edited July 16, 2013 by Eminor3rd

[kitekrazy]

I think blaming this season on the coaching staff is really lazy. You could bring any coaching staff in this season and the Sox are still one of the 5 worst teams in baseball. The one thing Robin does that drives me nuts is he gives away too many outs. I don't think his staff has failed miserably though.

 

There's really no way of knowing that.

 

[witesoxfan]

When's the last time one of the three or four worst teams in the majors added 3 of the Top 10-12 off-season free agent targets and spent more than $30-35-40 million (combined average) on three players that were all in their 30's?

 

The Marlins spent that money on Reyes, Bell and Buehrle, but you can argue that it was 90% because they were opening up a brand new stadium behind a new manager...but Choo, Beltran and Morales would be three players all in the second half of their careers.

 

Those would be moves more similar to what the White Sox did before 2005, although they didn't have to pay top dollar for any of those guys like Dye, AJ or Iguchi...the only big overpay was El Duque, at around $6.5 million if I remember correctly.

 

Just find it hard to imagine Beltran coming off a World Series/playoff team and his best offer coming from the White Sox.

 

Someone like the Giants will be more than willing to bring him back.

 

I have a feeling that the Sox will not end up as one of the 3 worst, but it's not a bad thing if they do. I think they'll slide into about the 6th spot. Regardless, this exact type of scenario happened last offseason with the Red Sox. They currently have the most wins in the majors.

 

Also, would you really consider Kendrys Morales and Carlos Beltran among the top 10-12 free agents? Top 25 or 50 perhaps, but a slightly above average 1B and an older outfielder, both of whom have had injury problems previously, don't strike me as "top 12."

 

Honestly, if they even signed Choo - again, an extreme long shot at this moment, but we'll say they do - and nothing else, it would be considered a great offseason with a building block like that set into place.

[witesoxfan]

There's really no way of knowing that.

 

Which is why it makes sense to give Ventura another shot with another group of players.

 

As loyal as Reinsdorf is, I see no way Ventura isn't brought back. The last Sox manager to be let go after 2 seasons was Bevington, and that was after displaying extreme incompetence.

[caulfield12]

I have a feeling that the Sox will not end up as one of the 3 worst, but it's not a bad thing if they do. I think they'll slide into about the 6th spot. Regardless, this exact type of scenario happened last offseason with the Red Sox. They currently have the most wins in the majors.

 

Also, would you really consider Kendrys Morales and Carlos Beltran among the top 10-12 free agents? Top 25 or 50 perhaps, but a slightly above average 1B and an older outfielder, both of whom have had injury problems previously, don't strike me as "top 12."

 

Honestly, if they even signed Choo - again, an extreme long shot at this moment, but we'll say they do - and nothing else, it would be considered a great offseason with a building block like that set into place.

 

 

We can split the difference and say Top 25-30, for sure.

 

As for the Red Sox, the only commonality or similarity is that they went through one long year of suffering under Valentine, just like 2013 has been for the White Sox.

 

However, a NEW MANAGER inherited a treasure trove of offensive firepower in Ellsbury, Pedroia and David Ortiz, with Middlebrooks SEEMING like he would be there for a generation....hard to compare the White Sox when they don't have anything like the Red Sox Big 3 to compare with offensively.

 

Next, you have Saltalamacchia, Napoli, Drew, and Victorino as the veteran "complementary" contributors....these last three being more in line with the category of players we would be similarly looking at for next year.

 

Finally, Carp, Iglesias and Nava have all surprised/outperformed. But we don't have anything close to infield prospects like Iglesias and Bogaerts in our own system right now.

 

 

If the White Sox go out and have a $125-145 million payroll coming off this season....well, history has shown you have to believe it when you see it. It also wouldn't be a surprise were they to be in the $95-110 million range, either.

 

Just think it's hard to compare the two franchises when the White Sox will never come close to spending $150-225 million per season on a roster.

Edited July 16, 2013 by caulfield12

[Eminor3rd]

While I don't think there's any chance at signing Choo at all, I think the idea of signing short-term deals on reclamation projects is precisely the route the Sox should take in 2014. It's essentially a shot in the dark at contending without hampering the 2015 plans.

[southsider2k5]

Dan Hayes ‏@DanHayesCSN 1m

 

Ozzie Guillen said he thinks Ventura is doing a better job as manager this season. Handles adversity well. Feels bad for #WhiteSox.

[kitekrazy]

Because he still had the glow of 2005 WS on him.

 

I remember that season and how awful it was. I think this is even worse.

 

I think what we're looking at is the ole' chicken-or-the-egg conundrum about an awful team: is it the managers or the players? How can you tell until one is removed? I'm fine with Robin for at least another year providing we make some big changes on the field. Then perhaps we'll have a better read.

 

That said, and I'm going to get shelled for this: Beckham. Is he a bust, or isn't he? Somebody decide. Yes his defense is great but so was Brian Anderson's. I don't know what to say about him--personally I like the guy.

 

That depends on how you look at it. If you expected the same production when he first came up-Yes. Being able to play in the majors-No.

 

 

[kitekrazy]

Which is why it makes sense to give Ventura another shot with another group of players.

 

As loyal as Reinsdorf is, I see no way Ventura isn't brought back. The last Sox manager to be let go after 2 seasons was Bevington, and that was after displaying extreme incompetence.

 

He's somewhat doing that now. I think the reaction would be much different with the fans if it were someone outside the organization.

 

[witesoxfan]

Dan Hayes ‏@DanHayesCSN 1m

 

Ozzie Guillen said he thinks Ventura is doing a better job as manager this season. Handles adversity well. Feels bad for #WhiteSox.

 

Nobody gives a f***, go back to your corner

 

He's somewhat doing that now. I think the reaction would be much different with the fans if it were someone outside the organization.

 

I think some of this is true, but he did such a good job last year that it's hard to tell which is the anamoly.

[southsider2k5]

I think some of this is true, but he did such a good job last year that it's hard to tell which is the anamoly.

 

That what makes this two year stretch so damned bizarre. As Ozzie was here longer and longer, you could see the team erode bit by bit. You could see specific players who had a problem with Ozzie, and others who really responded to him. It made sense.

 

This team literally went from a playoff team to one of the worst in baseball in no time. There was no decline, there was no erosion. It is unique by me.

[GreenSox]

The factor in this manager mess is Don Cooper. He was extended before Ventura was hired and he, reportedly, was one of Ozzie's big detractors. Ventura was hired despite not being on a bench in a decade for 2 reasons I think - he'd be loyal to Williams and he'd work with Cooper.

While I think the Sox have been poorly managed this season (and weren't managed well last year either), Cooper may be a shadow manager here too as well.

When you hire family, it's not easy to get rid of them. But the Sox really need to bring a group of baseball professionals in here next year.

[Dick Allen]

The factor in this manager mess is Don Cooper. He was extended before Ventura was hired and he, reportedly, was one of Ozzie's big detractors. Ventura was hired despite not being on a bench in a decade for 2 reasons I think - he'd be loyal to Williams and he'd work with Cooper.

While I think the Sox have been poorly managed this season (and weren't managed well last year either), Cooper may be a shadow manager here too as well.

When you hire family, it's not easy to get rid of them. But the Sox really need to bring a group of baseball professionals in here next year.

I always love when people who have never been in "on the bench" make it such a huge issue when criticizing others. If it is such a factor, how can you have any idea about what you are talking about if you hold yourself to your standard. Robin haas been with young teams, veteran teams, good teams and bad, and was always considered a leader. He is doing a fine job, and just like Torre, Cox, and LaRussa before him, will go from being an idiot to a genius as soon as he has better players to manage.

 

And Robin didn't come to be Kenny's yes man. He doesn't need the job. He doesn't owe anyone anything. He wanted the challenge.

Edited July 16, 2013 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

http://www.csnchicago.com/white-sox-talk/o...-year-last-year

 

Link to the entire Guillen article...

 

He's definitely sounding pretty complimentary towards Ventura. Not sure how genuine it is, and how much PR "spin" it is.

[southsider2k5]

http://www.csnchicago.com/white-sox-talk/o...-year-last-year

 

Link to the entire Guillen article...

 

He's definitely sounding pretty complimentary towards Ventura. Not sure how genuine it is, and how much PR "spin" it is.

 

Part of this is probably self-preservation, aka looking for another job.

[lostfan]

I don't see any reason why Ozzie wouldn't be cool with Robin, they always have been as far as I can tell