Make a case for a new manager in 2014

[Steve9347]

Robin let Chris Sale throw 8,000 pitches in one game.

[thedoctor]

i feel like i have zero idea of what kind of manager robin is.

 

for most of last year i thought he was a capable, albeit green manager who had a lot to learn. after the collapse i moved my opinion back to neutral.

 

this year has been awful, but the first half was a worst-case scenario type of thing, particularly in regards to injuries and player decline. is that on robin? i don't know. it's difficult to blame him. at the same time, i'm struggling to find one thing he's done during his tenure to use as an example of him being a good manager.

 

[Balta1701]

i feel like i have zero idea of what kind of manager robin is.

 

for most of last year i thought he was a capable, albeit green manager who had a lot to learn. after the collapse i moved my opinion back to neutral.

 

this year has been awful, but the first half was a worst-case scenario type of thing, particularly in regards to injuries and player decline. is that on robin? i don't know. it's difficult to blame him. at the same time, i'm struggling to find one thing he's done during his tenure to use as an example of him being a good manager.

 

The sharpness of play, particularly in the field and in basic fundamental moves (hitting the cutoff man, doing rundowns correctly, people calling for the ball correctly, people in the right position when a play needs to be backed up) that we saw in 2012 was the best compliment I could give him. That team did darn near every basic baseball move correctly for 5 months.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

The sad thing is we heard all last year how Robin needed to move Rios to the 3rd spot instead of Dunn because Rios was the most consistent hitter.

Things change from year to year and adjustments and flexibility is the key.

[thedoctor]

The sharpness of play, particularly in the field and in basic fundamental moves (hitting the cutoff man, doing rundowns correctly, people calling for the ball correctly, people in the right position when a play needs to be backed up) that we saw in 2012 was the best compliment I could give him. That team did darn near every basic baseball move correctly for 5 months.

 

for most of last year i felt that this was a strength. it was something i expected out of him before i saw him manage a game, and when it happened i felt it was truly part of what/who he is.

 

we haven't been as sharp in that respect this year. is that his fault, or a result of poorly skilled players getting more PT than they deserve because of roster attrition/underperformance?

 

in my mind it's somewhat of a chicken/egg conundrum.

[lostfan]

The sharpness of play, particularly in the field and in basic fundamental moves (hitting the cutoff man, doing rundowns correctly, people calling for the ball correctly, people in the right position when a play needs to be backed up) that we saw in 2012 was the best compliment I could give him. That team did darn near every basic baseball move correctly for 5 months.

This was a breath of fresh air in contrast to the previous year. Or well more like the previous 3 years.

[hi8is]

Robin has growing pains to get through but this year is not on him.

 

- Peavy injury

- Danks injury

- Floyd injury

- Konerko decline

- Tank Slump

- Alexi decline

- Keppinger disappointment

- Flowers wilted

- The great third base void

 

Face it guys and gals - this team had promise based on last year. However, they lost more pieces than they added and all of the performance issues on the field could have easily been predicted. This year seemed to be an accepted regression by upper management, marketed as a competitive team, which really is just the first step in a more aggressive rebuild.

 

The next couple years will be interesting indeed and Robin IMO is the least of our troubles.

 

Get at it Hanh.

[Balta1701]

for most of last year i felt that this was a strength. it was something i expected out of him before i saw him manage a game, and when it happened i felt it was truly part of what/who he is.

 

we haven't been as sharp in that respect this year. is that his fault, or a result of poorly skilled players getting more PT than they deserve because of roster attrition/underperformance?

 

in my mind it's somewhat of a chicken/egg conundrum.

The same players have done a worse job with their fundamentals this year. Alexei, De Aza, Viciedo, Rios, Beckham all come to mind immediately as guys who simply have looked worse in terms of the basics. On top of that, the pitchers are making similar mistakes, including pitchers who were here last year as well.

 

If it was just Keppinger booting balls at 2nd, fine, that's one thing. It's not. It's guys who hit the cutoff man last year missing them this year. It's guys who were in position last year being out of position this year.

[greg775]

Ventura can't do anything with this team. It's not a very good team. A rebuild is the best thing. Lets see how he works with that before making a case to remove him.

 

Robin is so well liked that posts like this IMO are the majority opinion. People are blaming the players rather than turning on the manager as they did Ozzie (because Oz was a loudmouth). My take is that Robin's team has had a horrendous first half, baserunning mistakes, defensive mistakes, embarrassing gaffes. If I were GM I'd be pissed because this is a .500 team, not a team 17 below .500 for gawdsakes. The GM should be FURIOUS at Robin. 17 below .500 with this pitching staff, pissing away game after game partly because of embarrassing defense? You've got to be kidding me.

[witesoxfan]

for most of last year i felt that this was a strength. it was something i expected out of him before i saw him manage a game, and when it happened i felt it was truly part of what/who he is.

 

we haven't been as sharp in that respect this year. is that his fault, or a result of poorly skilled players getting more PT than they deserve because of roster attrition/underperformance?

 

in my mind it's somewhat of a chicken/egg conundrum.

 

I think it's fair to say that it's a little of both at this point. Ventura perhaps getting a little comfortable in his job and perhaps allowing for laziness/sloppiness initially, and by that point they'd dug themselves a hole too deep to dig out of. The players need to improve too though because they've been pitiful and you can only coach so much.

 

[Eminor3rd]

The sharpness of play, particularly in the field and in basic fundamental moves (hitting the cutoff man, doing rundowns correctly, people calling for the ball correctly, people in the right position when a play needs to be backed up) that we saw in 2012 was the best compliment I could give him. That team did darn near every basic baseball move correctly for 5 months.

 

And this year it's the opposite despite the same managerial staff. Do we need any more evidence that the best thing an AL manager can do is stay out of the way? We were quick to give Robin all the credit last year and are just as quick to give him all the blame this year -- but I have a really hard time believing he just decided to prepare everyone differently from how it was "working" last year.

[lostfan]

Robin is so well liked that posts like this IMO are the majority opinion. People are blaming the players rather than turning on the manager as they did Ozzie (because Oz was a loudmouth). My take is that Robin's team has had a horrendous first half, baserunning mistakes, defensive mistakes, embarrassing gaffes. If I were GM I'd be pissed because this is a .500 team, not a team 17 below .500 for gawdsakes. The GM should be FURIOUS at Robin. 17 below .500 with this pitching staff, pissing away game after game partly because of embarrassing defense? You've got to be kidding me.

Ozzie never had a roster this thin and a lineup this sorry (except 2007). Plus Robin took largely the same team the following year and they almost won the division, and Ozzie (who'd quit) went to Miami and was a disaster and ended up getting fired. Granted, Loria is a terrible human being who f***ed the taxpayers of Miami over and the 73 or so Marlins fans but still.

[lostfan]

I went to an Orioles game a month or so and I looked at their lineup, it was something like McLouth, Markakis, Jones, Davis, Machado, at the time all these guys were WELL over .300. More than half their lineup. Actually there was a 6th person who I don't remember but at the time he was also over .300, whoever the DH was, Dickerson I thiink. And then I looked at our lineup for s***s and giggles, not a single one. Rios was heads and shoulders over everyone else and he was at about .285, everyone else was in the .240s or so. That's got nothing to do with a manager. The hitters just suck.

[GreenSox]

Do you mean make the case for canning Ventura, or for a particular replacement? For canning Ventura - I could get into specifics (consistently poor strategic decisions, overworking young pitchers) but the bottom line is that we're on pace for 100 or so losses, and the manager pays that price. Would there be any question if, say, a Bear Coach went 3-13? No reason that Ventura deserves a pass.

 

 

Edited July 15, 2013 by GreenSox

[greg775]

I went to an Orioles game a month or so and I looked at their lineup, it was something like McLouth, Markakis, Jones, Davis, Machado, at the time all these guys were WELL over .300. More than half their lineup. Actually there was a 6th person who I don't remember but at the time he was also over .300, whoever the DH was, Dickerson I thiink. And then I looked at our lineup for s***s and giggles, not a single one. Rios was heads and shoulders over everyone else and he was at about .285, everyone else was in the .240s or so. That's got nothing to do with a manager. The hitters just suck.

 

Very true about the hitting, but in the past we'd have blamed Walker. I hear very little Manto hate. Let's face it. Robin is very very likeable because he says nothing controversial. I think I have a case for thinking Robin is a horrible horrible manager (how many close games have we pissed away because of defense; just about every game is a close game except when we get blown out). I can see where you point to the hitting and not blaming Robin, but again ... when we didn't hit under Oz we blamed Walker. This is all cliche. Right now Robin is getting a free pass IMO. 17 under .500??? With this team? Robin defenders please explain how we can be that bad? And don't forget the epic collapse the last few weeks of last season. He got a free pass for that as well. It was more or less, 'oh well.'

GMs take this stuff seriously. I can't imagine Hahn is shrugging off -17.

Edited July 15, 2013 by greg775

[cabiness42]

Do you mean make the case for canning Ventura, or for a particular replacement? For canning Ventura - I could get into specifics (consistently poor strategic decisions, overworking young pitchers) but the bottom line is that we're on pace for 100 or so losses, and the manager pays that price. Would there be any question if, say, a Bear Coach went 3-13? No reason that Ventura deserves a pass.

 

A head football coach has far, far more impact on the outcome of his team than a baseball manager. It's not even in the same ballpark for comparison.

 

[Balta1701]

A head football coach has far, far more impact on the outcome of his team than a baseball manager. It's not even in the same ballpark for comparison.

I would have agreed with you so much more had i not lived through 2011 and 2012 with the white sox. Those 2 seasons convinced me that a manager can really do enormous things for a baseball franchise, because I saw it happen.

[JoshPR]

Robin is so well liked that posts like this IMO are the majority opinion. People are blaming the players rather than turning on the manager as they did Ozzie (because Oz was a loudmouth). My take is that Robin's team has had a horrendous first half, baserunning mistakes, defensive mistakes, embarrassing gaffes. If I were GM I'd be pissed because this is a .500 team, not a team 17 below .500 for gawdsakes. The GM should be FURIOUS at Robin. 17 below .500 with this pitching staff, pissing away game after game partly because of embarrassing defense? You've got to be kidding me.

 

Maybe robin should go out and field then. Do you really think any other manager would have this pile of gunk contending?

[Balta1701]

Maybe robin should go out and field then. Do you really think any other manager would have this pile of gunk contending?

Not contending. More than just the fielding has sabotaged that. The injuries have killed, the death of Konerko has really, really, really killed (we desperately need an impact, middle of the order bat and he hasn't been there), and the slow starts by a couple guys (De Aza, Dunn, Keppinger) did damage as well.

 

If we were playing the same level defense we were last year, I think we're a couple games below .500, maybe even .500. If Konerko was hitting like he did last year on top of that, then I'd think we were contending. Maybe not 1b, but at least able to give it the ol' college try.

[greg775]

Not contending. More than just the fielding has sabotaged that. The injuries have killed, the death of Konerko has really, really, really killed (we desperately need an impact, middle of the order bat and he hasn't been there), and the slow starts by a couple guys (De Aza, Dunn, Keppinger) did damage as well.

 

If we were playing the same level defense we were last year, I think we're a couple games below .500, maybe even .500. If Konerko was hitting like he did last year on top of that, then I'd think we were contending. Maybe not 1b, but at least able to give it the ol' college try.

 

Now that's a post I agree with. IF Sox were playing decent defense, team would be near .500. Now, cmon, folks, Sox are playing 14 games below capability?? Robin deserves a pile of blame and a big fat grade of F this year after his A- from last year. The collapse is the reason for the minus.

[witesoxfan]

Now that's a post I agree with. IF Sox were playing decent defense, team would be near .500. Now, cmon, folks, Sox are playing 14 games below capability?? Robin deserves a pile of blame and a big fat grade of F this year after his A- from last year. The collapse is the reason for the minus.

 

The only thing Ventura contributed to the collapse last year was running out his best lineup as often as he could. It was the best team in the central after 144 or 146 games or whatever, but injuries and fatigue killed that team down the stretch.

 

This year, he absolutely deserves some, but pinning this all on him is like saying the only reason the Cardinals are hitting is because Mike Matheny is managing them.

[lostfan]

Now that's a post I agree with. IF Sox were playing decent defense, team would be near .500. Now, cmon, folks, Sox are playing 14 games below capability?? Robin deserves a pile of blame and a big fat grade of F this year after his A- from last year. The collapse is the reason for the minus.

What's their capability? How does anyone know really? A lot of the reasons for this team's collapse have nothing to do with Robin. In 2007, I don't think I was actually registered on this board at the time, but the general feeling among Sox fans wasn't anti-Ozzie save for people criticizing him for starting Erstad over Anderson. But that was a team in which Andy Gonzalez had 185 PAs.

[GreenSox]

A head football coach has far, far more impact on the outcome of his team than a baseball manager. It's not even in the same ballpark for comparison.

Not really.

A baseball manager has to have his team ready to play, and playing hard, in 162 games. A baseball manager has to look at tomorrow's game re whether to use a player, not just today.

Football coaches have different challenges, such as game plans and play-calling, but are given a lot of staff and can frequently blame things on coordinators.

 

This team has made mental gaffes all season, but somehow Ventura holds no responsibility. He's had his share himself - he actually intentionally walked Chris Getz, for goodness sakes.

Ventura didn't have the experience when offered this job, and I just don't see what he's done to deserve keeping it.

Edited July 15, 2013 by GreenSox

[lostfan]

Not really.

A baseball manager has to have his team ready to play, and playing hard, in 162 games. A baseball manager has to look at tomorrow's game re whether to use a player, not just today.

Football coaches have different challenges, such as game plans and play-calling, but are given a lot of staff and can frequently blame things on coordinators.

 

This team has made mental gaffes all season, but somehow Ventura holds no responsibility.

Ventura didn't have the experience when offered this job, and I just don't see what he's done to deserve keeping it.

Game planning in and of itself is extremely complex, that alone is hours of preparation

[Rowand44]

Not really.

A baseball manager has to have his team ready to play, and playing hard, in 162 games. A baseball manager has to look at tomorrow's game re whether to use a player, not just today.

Football coaches have different challenges, such as game plans and play-calling, but are given a lot of staff and can frequently blame things on coordinators.

 

This team has made mental gaffes all season, but somehow Ventura holds no responsibility. He's had his share himself - he actually intentionally walked Chris Getz, for goodness sakes.

Ventura didn't have the experience when offered this job, and I just don't see what he's done to deserve keeping it.

Oh cmon now, coaches in the NFL are about 32894032740932840932843092483209473290483092483092483092 times more important than managers in baseball are.