Should sox ride sale less on throw away seasons?

[ron883]

It is the all star break and sale has already thrown 120 pitches. Do you think they should keep his innings down in these throw away seasons? I don't get why we are riding him. He has a scary delivery, and it would just lessen the wear and tear on his arm in general. They need to be skipping starts every now and then for him.

[Balta1701]

I don't get why they're pushing his pitch count either...but in Cooper I trust.

[kev211]

We can't keep babying him. If his arm goes itll go eventually no matter how much innings he throws. He's on pace for 211 innings. Which is 20 more than he threw last year and a perfect inning total to reach.

 

Also they've been building in breaks. During the cubs rainout he threw like two innings and had 10 days of two innings. He threw two innings at the all star game so will go July 11 to July 22 with just two innings thrown.

[southsider2k5]

I'm of the theory that as long as a guy is conditioned for it, this isn't as big of a deal as people make it out to be. It is just like training for a marathon though. You don't run the 5k and then go out and run the marathon without additional work. You have to be trained to go that distance. It seems like the Sox are conditioning their pitchers to be on the higher end of that pitch count number by giving them that sort of workload. So no you don't have Sale as a guy who regularly throws 100 pitches, and then run him out there for 130. But if he is being conditioned to be a regular 120 pitch guy, that is fine.

 

Unless there is a mechanical issue that causes injury, I am not convinced this is such a big deal.

[Jerksticks]

I'm of the theory that as long as a guy is conditioned for it, this isn't as big of a deal as people make it out to be. It is just like training for a marathon though. You don't run the 5k and then go out and run the marathon without additional work. You have to be trained to go that distance. It seems like the Sox are conditioning their pitchers to be on the higher end of that pitch count number by giving them that sort of workload. So no you don't have Sale as a guy who regularly throws 100 pitches, and then run him out there for 130. But if he is being conditioned to be a regular 120 pitch guy, that is fine.

 

Unless there is a mechanical issue that causes injury, I am not convinced this is such a big deal.

 

Man it would be cool to be a fly in the room when they all get together and discuss these things. It would probably blow our minds hearing the amount of analysis and hard work that goes into making these decisions.

[ptatc]

It is the all star break and sale has already thrown 120 pitches. Do you think they should keep his innings down in these throw away seasons? I don't get why we are riding him. He has a scary delivery, and it would just lessen the wear and tear on his arm in general. They need to be skipping starts every now and then for him.

If you want him to be an innings eater pitcher in the future he needs to consistently do it. If he doesn't pitch now it will decrease his ability to work next year.

 

A case could be made that this is a perfect year to build his innings and pitch count. He can do it when it doesn't matter and if he loses because of it, so what. It's about building for the future now not results.

 

Of course repeated counts near 130 maybe over doing it but the 120 mark should be achieved regularly to build it up.

[GreenSox]

Yes.

We don't need him as an innings eater. We need him as an ace, front of the rotation starter.

And our other young pitchers should be ridden less as well. This team doesn't exist so that Ventura and Cooper can scratch out 70 wins instead of 65

[Kyyle23]

Yes.

We don't need him as an innings eater. We need him as an ace, front of the rotation starter.And our other young pitchers should be ridden less as well. This team doesn't exist so that Ventura and Cooper can scratch out 70 wins instead of 65

 

Aces are usually one and the same

[GreenSox]

Aces are usually one and the same

Often they are.

But they aren't routinely pitched 115 innings plus like Ventura pitches our pitchers. Pitching their arm off isn't how they became aces.

[Kyyle23]

Often they are.

But they aren't routinely pitched 115 innings plus like Ventura pitches our pitchers. Pitching their arm off isn't how they became aces.

 

Really? Which Aces dont?

[Leonard Zelig]

Really? Which Aces dont?

Mark Buehrle

[Kyyle23]

Mark Buehrle

 

lol

 

MBINAA

[LittleHurt05]

Mark Buehrle

 

MBINAA

[witesoxfan]

Often they are.

But they aren't routinely pitched 115 innings plus like Ventura pitches our pitchers. Pitching their arm off isn't how they became aces.

 

Justin Verlander has thrown 110 pitches in 14 of 20 games this year and has only 1 game with fewer than 91 pitches; last year, he threw 114 pitches or more in 20 of his 33 starts, and failed to throw 100 pitches only once.

 

If you'd really like, I could probably continue to do this with Felix, Sabathia, Wainwright, Holland, whoever. And then I can do it with Strasburg too, who the Nationals handle with kid gloves, who's already had Tommy John, who still has injury concerns, who will never develop the arm strength necessary to be anything more than a 7 inning weapon at most.

[TitoMB345]

Mark Buehrle

LOL!

[southsider2k5]

Often they are.

But they aren't routinely pitched 115 innings plus like Ventura pitches our pitchers. Pitching their arm off isn't how they became aces.

 

The true aces are conditioned to go all of the way.

[southsider2k5]

Man it would be cool to be a fly in the room when they all get together and discuss these things. It would probably blow our minds hearing the amount of analysis and hard work that goes into making these decisions.

 

It is the part of baseball I love to follow. The game inside of the game. It is amazing to me.

[ptatc]

Yes.

We don't need him as an innings eater. We need him as an ace, front of the rotation starter.

And our other young pitchers should be ridden less as well. This team doesn't exist so that Ventura and Cooper can scratch out 70 wins instead of 65

I disagree. As I said the wins don't matter. However, build ing arm and body endurance is important. For the Sox to be a successful team they need him to be pitching as much as possible as he is the best pitcher.

[Jerksticks]

I disagree. As I said the wins don't matter. However, build ing arm and body endurance is important. For the Sox to be a successful team they need him to be pitching as much as possible as he is the best pitcher.

Totally agree. That seems to be the plan and I like it.

 

Does anybody think Hawk is right when he says that baseball will eventually head back to 4 man rotations, considering today's pitchers are bigger, stronger and more athletic than their predecessors? That makes sense at a purely physical level but I wonder if the current investments in these pitchers prevents that from ever happening. I'm sure there are some good points for both sides.

[LittleHurt05]

Totally agree. That seems to be the plan and I like it.

 

Does anybody think Hawk is right when he says that baseball will eventually head back to 4 man rotations, considering today's pitchers are bigger, stronger and more athletic than their predecessors? That makes sense at a purely physical level but I wonder if the current investments in these pitchers prevents that from ever happening. I'm sure there are some good points for both sides.

 

There seems to be new ways of thinking with throwing too. It's either the Orioles or D-Backs who are incorporating long distance throws into their pitchers' workout regimens. While they realize a pitcher can throw too much, I think they are starting to realize that babying a pitcher's arm isn't always the best approach either.

[southsider2k5]

Totally agree. That seems to be the plan and I like it.

 

Does anybody think Hawk is right when he says that baseball will eventually head back to 4 man rotations, considering today's pitchers are bigger, stronger and more athletic than their predecessors? That makes sense at a purely physical level but I wonder if the current investments in these pitchers prevents that from ever happening. I'm sure there are some good points for both sides.

 

We will never see a team go to the 4 man rotation again for a season.

[witesoxfan]

There seems to be new ways of thinking with throwing too. It's either the Orioles or D-Backs who are incorporating long distance throws into their pitchers' workout regimens. While they realize a pitcher can throw too much, I think they are starting to realize that babying a pitcher's arm isn't always the best approach either.

 

I think all teams do some sort of long toss regimen. It's one of the best ways to increase velocity.

 

We will never see a team go to the 4 man rotation again for a season.

 

We see teams try it now and then, but I agree that nobody will ever stick with it. I think we're closer to a 6 man rotation than we are a 4 man.

[Dick Allen]

Nolan Ryan wanted to go to a 4 man rotation when he took over in Texas, but because all your talent isn't homegrown, it's going to be hard for a team to have 4 major league quality guys physically trained for that unless a lot of other teams jump on board.

 

Hawk had an idea where they should make the seams higher and larger so pitchers wouldn't have to put as much stress on their arms throwing breaking pitches.

[witesoxfan]

Nolan Ryan wanted to go to a 4 man rotation when he took over in Texas, but because all your talent isn't homegrown, it's going to be hard for a team to have 4 major league quality guys physically trained for that unless a lot of other teams jump on board.

 

Hawk had an idea where they should make the seams higher and larger so pitchers wouldn't have to put as much stress on their arms throwing breaking pitches.

 

So then we'd see curveballs that break 4 feet. That sounds even better, allow the pitchers to throw even more unhittable pitches.

 

It's at least thinking outside the box, but we'd see guys striking out 300+ again.

[Jake]

I think all teams do some sort of long toss regimen. It's one of the best ways to increase velocity.

 

 

 

We see teams try it now and then, but I agree that nobody will ever stick with it. I think we're closer to a 6 man rotation than we are a 4 man.

 

 

About half of teams use long toss to a significant extent. There are significant divisions in certain circles about the utility and even safety of long toss. I went to a clinic that treats Cardinals players and they told me I would be doing no long-tossing with them. Other places I consulted saw long tossing as the centerpiece of strengthening.