greg775 Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 (edited) QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Jul 21, 2013 -> 03:28 PM) Sox fans are a funny bunch. Nobody dogged it more than AJ. Seriously, he loafed, complained, and cried more than anybody, yet people put him on a pedestal. I guess you have to throw your bat to prove you care. You thought AJ dogged it? I think he was a "shoulder shrug" runner at times, but he may be all time Sox leader in TWTW. One of the best "gamers" in White Sox history without a doubt. QUOTE (chw42 @ Jul 21, 2013 -> 05:10 PM) Nobody would have cared about Rios dogging it if Ventura didn't pull him and mention it to the media. But now it's a national story. I don't see why you are condoning babying Rios. The guy has a history of loafing. Every GM in baseball knows everything there is to know about Rios including his penchant to dog it. It would have taken a lot for Ventura to ignore that. You should be furious at Rios, not Ventura. If you think Rios' trade value has declined for that incident, your anger should be directed to Rios IMO. Ventura would have to resign if unwilling to discipline a guy in that situation. He'd not be a leader at all. Edited July 21, 2013 by greg775 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd_city_saint787 Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 21, 2013 -> 02:06 PM) You thought AJ dogged it? I think he was a "shoulder shrug" runner at times, but he may be all time Sox leader in TWTW. One of the best "gamers" in White Sox history without a doubt. I don't see why you are condoning babying Rios. The guy has a history of loafing. Every GM in baseball knows everything there is to know about Rios including his penchant to dog it. It would have taken a lot for Ventura to ignore that. You should be furious at Rios, not Ventura. If you think Rios' trade value has declined for that incident, your anger should be directed to Rios IMO. Ventura would have to resign if unwilling to discipline a guy in that situation. He'd not be a leader at all. Yes AJ dogged it quite a bit. As do a lot of major leaguers when the hit a hard hit ground ball to the SS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 QUOTE (scs787 @ Jul 21, 2013 -> 03:17 PM) Yes AJ dogged it quite a bit. As do a lot of major leaguers when the hit a hard hit ground ball to the SS. Heck, there's the one infamous time that he even pissed Ozzie off by having all the TV's on college football after a loss late in a season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Zelig Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 21, 2013 -> 02:19 PM) Heck, there's the one infamous time that he even pissed Ozzie off by having all the TV's on college football after a loss late in a season. That's dogging it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 QUOTE (scs787 @ Jul 21, 2013 -> 07:17 PM) Yes AJ dogged it quite a bit. As do a lot of major leaguers when the hit a hard hit ground ball to the SS. Comparing Rios' desire to AJ's however, is like comparing Goober Pyle's acting to Jack Nicholson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd_city_saint787 Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 21, 2013 -> 03:30 PM) Comparing Rios' desire to AJ's however, is like comparing Goober Pyle's acting to Jack Nicholson. Not in this context. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jul 21, 2013 -> 12:31 PM) Rick is paid to be a salesman, both in terms of selling players to opposing GMs and selling tickets to fans. He's never going to tell the full truth nor should he. I know you watch this team on a daily basis and will admit the offense is horrific. We need some big changes (more OBP & better contact) before we can truly contend for a World Series and I don't see how Hahn can disagree with that. The good news is we have assets in Peavy & Crain (and possibly others) that we can use to help improve our offense. We should also have quite a bit of money to play with over the next two offseasons. If Hahn makes the right moves, he can turn things around pretty quickly. If not, it's going to take much longer because we don't have any prospects in our system who will likely be ready before the 2015 season and we can't fill all our needs in free agency. You do know the Sox were 11th in the AL in OBP when they did win the WS? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 We need to let this thread die, the other GMs are reading this!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 21, 2013 -> 05:51 PM) We need to let this thread die, the other GMs are reading this!! Then hopefully they've also seen how he's responded to this benching with 2 solid days with bats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Rios and De Aza are almost identical offensively. Rios has 1 more appearance. They have the same amount of hits, doubles, triples and homers. Rios has 9 more steals and 25 less ks. DeAza has walked 3 more times. Pretty amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 21, 2013 -> 05:19 PM) Rios and De Aza are almost identical offensively. Rios has 1 more appearance. They have the same amount of hits, doubles, triples and homers. Rios has 9 more steals and 25 less ks. DeAza has walked 3 more times. Pretty amazing. Ale leads the team in ops for non pitchers who have been here all year. I bet most people wouldn't guess that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 (edited) QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Jul 21, 2013 -> 05:25 PM) Ale leads the team in ops for non pitchers who have been here all year. I bet most people wouldn't guess that. He is really hitting it hard lately, and his strikeouts seem to have really dropped off. For a while, he looked like 200 ks was more probability than possibility if he continued to get the AB. He has still been brutal defensively, and has made some boneheaded blunders,but for $2 million a year, he's not a bad player. Edited July 21, 2013 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 21, 2013 -> 06:28 PM) He is really hitting it hard lately, and his strikeouts seem to have really dropped off. For a while, he looked like 200 ks was more probability than possibility if he continued to get the AB. He has still been brutal defensively, and has made some boneheaded blunders,but for $2 million a year, he's not a bad player. Fangraphs thinks he was worth $12 million a year in 2011 and 2012 and has been worth ~$6 million so far this year. Despite the horrid start to the year, hes on pace to put up a similar overall season as last year in terms of WAR if he doesn't get hurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 21, 2013 -> 04:49 PM) You do know the Sox were 11th in the AL in OBP when they did win the WS? And hit 200 HRs and stole 137 bases, which helped make up for their below average OBP. The 2005 offense wasn't great by any means, but it was at least respectable. They had enough power and speed (along with an elite bullpen) to win close games. You can spin it however you want, but this year's offense entered today dead last in the AL in runs scored. They also happen to be 2nd to last in team OBP and I don't think that's a coincidence. That may work for you, but it doesn't work for me and I'm confident that Hahn feels the same way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jul 21, 2013 -> 06:26 PM) And hit 200 HRs and stole 137 bases, which helped make up for their below average OBP. The 2005 offense wasn't great by any means, but it was at least respectable. They had enough power and speed (along with an elite bullpen) to win close games. You can spin it however you want, but this year's offense entered today dead last in the AL in runs scored. They also happen to be 2nd to last in team OBP and I don't think that's a coincidence. That may work for you, but it doesn't work for me and I'm confident that Hahn feels the same way. Of course it is, but the offense can be fixed by next season. It doesn't have to be a 3 or 4 year process. It is funny you question guys like Rosenthal who have toms on contacts throughout the league, but claim you know what Rick Hahn is thinking and planning like he's your next door neighbor and you got him plastered one night and got him to start babbling. If the White Sox add a couple of hitters, and Phegley turns out to be at least an average hitter, their offense will be plenty to win. They were 4th in the AL in runs in 2012. There is no reason to think that is impossible in 2014. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 21, 2013 -> 06:36 PM) Of course it is, but the offense can be fixed by next season. It doesn't have to be a 3 or 4 year process. It is funny you question guys like Rosenthal who have toms on contacts throughout the league, but claim you know what Rick Hahn is thinking and planning like he's your next door neighbor and you got him plastered one night and got him to start babbling. If the White Sox add a couple of hitters, and Phegley turns out to be at least an average hitter, their offense will be plenty to win. They were 4th in the AL in runs in 2012. There is no reason to think that is impossible in 2014. Lol..let me get this straight, we can never question the manager and now we can't make educated guesses about Rick Hahn's style based on his background and limited body of work? You're right, he's not my neighbor, but I'm pretty sure he's sick of having a lineup full of low AVG, low OBP players. That's one of the main reasons he signed Keppinger & traded for Gillapsie in his first offseason as GM. Again, I never said we can't rebuild our offense quickly, I've just said it's likely a 2 year process and to begin that process we need a couple of rookies in the lineup next year that our system doesn't currently have. That's why this deadline is so important. We need to add those pieces in Peavy & Crain deals. If not, rebuilding the offense will be a much more difficult and time-consuming process IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jul 21, 2013 -> 06:57 PM) Lol..let me get this straight, we can never question the manager and now we can't make educated guesses about Rick Hahn's style based on his background and limited body of work? You're right, he's not my neighbor, but I'm pretty sure he's sick of having a lineup full of low AVG, low OBP players. That's one of the main reasons he signed Keppinger & traded for Gillapsie in his first offseason as GM. Again, I never said we can't rebuild our offense quickly, I've just said it's likely a 2 year process and to begin that process we need a couple of rookies in the lineup next year that our system doesn't currently have. That's why this deadline is so important. We need to add those pieces in Peavy & Crain deals. If not, rebuilding the offense will be a much more difficult and time-consuming process IMO. Yet Keppinger and Gillaspie combined don't equal the team's terrible OBP. You win with pitching and power. No question it help with more guys on base, but they won it all with the 11th ranked OBP in the AL, because they hit homers aand pitched.Get a couple of guys who hit homers, hopefully Viciedo finds his power stroke, Beckham's wrist should be fully recovered, and the home runs return.The Sox have had a power outage this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 21, 2013 -> 10:19 PM) Rios and De Aza are almost identical offensively. Rios has 1 more appearance. They have the same amount of hits, doubles, triples and homers. Rios has 9 more steals and 25 less ks. DeAza has walked 3 more times. Pretty amazing. I think Dick Allen owns this board now. Dick Allen is by far the smartest baseball mind on this board, IMO. Listen to Dick Allen. He swings a heavy bat and is on a hot streak with posts. GO SOX! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 21, 2013 -> 07:28 PM) Yet Keppinger and Gillaspie combined don't equal the team's terrible OBP. You win with pitching and power. No question it help with more guys on base, but they won it all with the 11th ranked OBP in the AL, because they hit homers aand pitched.Get a couple of guys who hit homers, hopefully Viciedo finds his power stroke, Beckham's wrist should be fully recovered, and the home runs return.The Sox have had a power outage this season. The 2005 team only playing small ball and not depending on homers is one of the biggest myths in White Sox history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heads22 Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 A few weeks ago I'd say De Aza would be shipped out and it wouldn't have bothered me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 (edited) QUOTE (Heads22 @ Jul 22, 2013 -> 02:57 AM) A few weeks ago I'd say De Aza would be shipped out and it wouldn't have bothered me. I'm starting to think DeAza is a keeper. I've given up on Viciedo. Everybody knows I dislike Rios. So I'd keep one outfielder, DeAza, while trading Rios and Viciedo. As far as infield, I'd keep Gillaspie as a utility man for next year, I'd keep Lexi and Beckham. I'd trade Paulie cause we won't sign him to another contract and he's unfortunately gotten old. I'd keep Phegs. I'd trade Dunn and Flowers if anybody will take either of those 2 guys. As far as pitching, I'd trade Peavy and Crain and keep everybody else. Edited July 22, 2013 by greg775 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heads22 Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 I want to deal Rios, but I'm sure for different reasons than you. I just don't think he's a long term piece for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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