Quintana's drug-related past

[southsider2k5]

27,948 on Monday and 23,826 on Tuesday. So maybe there was a slight bump, but I wonder what their average walk-up sales are on a Monday night.

 

Slight? That is a 20% difference.

[witesoxfan]

Not saying that taking PEDs in the minors isn't wrong, or isn't as bad as doing it in the majors.

 

Again, this particular article is talking about the HALL OF FAME. If in the unlikely event Quintana goes on to have a HOF worthy career, none of his major league numbers will come from the benefit of his PED use while in the minors, which is not true in the case of the others.

 

If Neyer wanted to make the same point you are making, then he should never have put the words HALL OF FAME in his article.

 

It would be pretty f***ing awesome if Quintana had a hall of fame career with the Sox

[LittleHurt05]

Not saying that taking PEDs in the minors isn't wrong, or isn't as bad as doing it in the majors.

 

Again, this particular article is talking about the HALL OF FAME. If in the unlikely event Quintana goes on to have a HOF worthy career, none of his major league numbers will come from the benefit of his PED use while in the minors, which is not true in the case of the others.

 

If Neyer wanted to make the same point you are making, then he should never have put the words HALL OF FAME in his article.

 

Oh ok, gotcha, I may have quickly skipped over the first two lines of the story and missed the HOF part.

[Harry Chappas]

Slight? That is a 20% difference.

 

Isn't Monday half price night or did they do away with that?

[Iwritecode]

Slight? That is a 20% difference.

 

It's still only a few extra thousand and you can't say for sure that they were all there because they wanted to boo Arod.

 

They are still below last year's average attendance overall. I'm just saying that I think a legitimately contending team is still a bigger draw than the chance to boo a cheater.

[Iwritecode]

We broke 30K for Jake Peavy's last start. So the original post that basically said "look Sox fans will show up to boo a cheater but not to cheer for their own team" is just ignorant IMO.

[Princess Dye]

with Quintana and Ozuna it is funny stuff; with ARod it is a tragedy of monstrous proportions

 

Quintana never really accomplished anything before his positive test, so it's not anywhere near the same as Braun or ARod, who won MVP awards while on PEDs

 

I robbed a bank, but i shouldnt go to jail because i dropped all the money before i got in my car and left.

 

 

 

 

 

Of course everyone is punished, in a literal sense...but the punishment in public opinion is where the hypocritical reactions come in

Edited August 7, 2013 by Jose Paniagua

[Balta1701]

I robbed a bank, but i shouldnt go to jail because i dropped all the money before i got in my car and left.

 

 

 

 

 

Of course everyone is punished, in a literal sense...but the punishment in public opinion is where the wildly differing reactions come in

Of course, part of the issue might be the circumstances...if he legitimately took something a doctor recommended and tested positive as a consequence...then the comparison is "the 17 year old who was standing next to the bank and was handed $50k by the guy who actually robbed the bank when he was running out" to "the guy who robbed the bank of $200 million".

 

I'm not going to give him a pass on the suspension, he deserves a suspension even if he naively took something incorrectly, but I'm also a human, I can judge how much blame to give him in my head based on my own standards.

[Princess Dye]

In football no one cares who juices. Now of course baseball has the whole thing where the records were sacred, and steroid users made those records...no longer magical

 

So it makes sense that McGwire and Bonds etc are vilified.

 

For these later guys now, A-Rod amongst them........who yes contributed to the general era, but who werent committing these specific atrocities on the record books , and just basically have cheated (while their opponents and opposing pitchers cheated too)......affecting Ws and Ls, like an NFL guy today does.........i dont see why some are made to be Americas Most Wanted and others are totally forgotten (ie Quintana, Flowers)

 

You can be really good and cheat (A-Rod) and be hated, or you can be bad and cheat and be forgotten (Flowers)

Edited August 7, 2013 by Jose Paniagua

[witesoxfan]

In football no one cares who juices. Now of course baseball has the whole thing where the records were sacred, and steroid users made those records...no longer magical

 

So it makes sense that McGwire and Bonds etc are vilified.

 

For these later guys now, A-Rod amongst them........who yes contributed to the general era, but who werent committing these specific atrocities on the record books , and just basically have cheated (while their opponents and opposing pitchers cheated too)......affecting Ws and Ls, like an NFL guy today does.........i dont see why some are made to be Americas Most Wanted and others are totally forgotten (ie Quintana, Flowers)

 

You can be really good and cheat (A-Rod) and be hated, or you can be bad and cheat and be forgotten (Flowers)

 

The NFL has nothing to do with this. It's full of hypocrites, but they are cracking down starting next year.

 

But if you are saying that McGwire and Bonds are necssarily vilified for breaking baseball's records, then why would ARod NOT be? He's 5th on the all time home run list and, up until recent injuries and now a looming suspension, was on pace to shatter the all time home run record, and it was going to be because of PEDs.

 

And yes, people generally don't care about cheaters who fail, because they failed anyways. If they cheat and succeed, people will believe it to be unfair and yes, they will be hated.

[Quin]

It would be pretty f***ing awesome if Quintana had a hall of fame career with the Sox

 

I'd be ok with it.

[Dick Allen]

The NFL has nothing to do with this. It's full of hypocrites, but they are cracking down starting next year.

 

But if you are saying that McGwire and Bonds are necssarily vilified for breaking baseball's records, then why would ARod NOT be? He's 5th on the all time home run list and, up until recent injuries and now a looming suspension, was on pace to shatter the all time home run record, and it was going to be because of PEDs.

 

And yes, people generally don't care about cheaters who fail, because they failed anyways. If they cheat and succeed, people will believe it to be unfair and yes, they will be hated.

Bud and MLB take the sam view. If they had the same thing they supposedly have on ARod on any of the other players that were suspended, ie they supposedly did exactly the same things as ARod, does anyone really think they would get 211 games?

[witesoxfan]

Bud and MLB take the sam view. If they had the same thing they supposedly have on ARod on any of the other players that were suspended, ie they supposedly did exactly the same things as ARod, does anyone really think they would get 211 games?

 

There's no way. Selig is clearly making an example out of ARod.

 

Honestly, I don't know who the bad guy is. Both I guess. I don't know who's worse though either.

[Dick Allen]

One thing I find fascinating, is guys like Quintana aren't suspected of juicing anymore once they get caught. I don't know how many times Hawk has mentioned how much bigger and stronger Quintana got over the winter. He said he was almost unrecognizable.The first winter after earning a sweet paycheck.anyone reaaly think Colon is just naturally doing what he is doing at 40?

 

Studies have shown most people who do time commit more crime after they do the time. I suspect juicing is the same.

[witesoxfan]

One thing I find fascinating, is guys like Quintana aren't suspected of juicing anymore once they get caught. I don't know how many times Hawk has mentioned how much bigger and stronger Quintana got over the winter. He said he was almost unrecognizable.The first winter after earning a sweet paycheck.anyone reaaly think Colon is just naturally doing what he is doing at 40?

 

Studies have shown most people who do time commit more crime after they do the time. I suspect juicing is the same.

 

And they just get better at it.

 

How does Bartolo Colon increase his throwing velocity 2 MPH from 37 to 40? You know it wasn't a matter of just getting healthy or losing weight. I mean, Jamie Moyer pitched until he was 50 but I never suspected him. But guys increasing velocity at that age? That's not right.

[Balta1701]

One thing I find fascinating, is guys like Quintana aren't suspected of juicing anymore once they get caught. I don't know how many times Hawk has mentioned how much bigger and stronger Quintana got over the winter. He said he was almost unrecognizable.The first winter after earning a sweet paycheck.anyone reaaly think Colon is just naturally doing what he is doing at 40?

 

Studies have shown most people who do time commit more crime after they do the time. I suspect juicing is the same.

That's the annoying thing about this entire drug testing mess...all of that can make sense easily.

 

Guys do get stronger. Guys who are in their early 20's build muscle mass all the time. Guys who are in their early 20's and go from "A-ball level trainers" to "I just earned $500k and I'm on a major league roster and now I have access to their weight room and nutritional information" could readily be expected to put on some serious mass and strength during offseason conditioning. Guys who are having a huge jump in innings, like Q was last year, could readily be expected to lose some velocity and then have it come back the next year.

 

Colon of course was already suspended once for steroids directly linked to the Biogenesis clinic, so no it's already established he didn't recover naturally.

 

But that's the real annoying thing here; guys can legitimately get stronger and better and that's exactly what you should expect in a guy's early to mid 20's. That's why I'm hoping I can finally have confidence in the testing program, because if it is finally olympic-quality it's going to be very tough to beat long-term and we can stop having this discussion.

[NorthSideSox72]

One thing I find fascinating, is guys like Quintana aren't suspected of juicing anymore once they get caught. I don't know how many times Hawk has mentioned how much bigger and stronger Quintana got over the winter. He said he was almost unrecognizable.The first winter after earning a sweet paycheck.anyone reaaly think Colon is just naturally doing what he is doing at 40?

 

Studies have shown most people who do time commit more crime after they do the time. I suspect juicing is the same.

Except the testing has changed dramatically since he was 17. Heck it has changed a lot since last year, when Biogenesis was going on.

 

Players, coaches, others are all saying that players are doing it a lot less now. And that makes perfect sense, with the increased testing and more difficult regimen to get around. It is just a higher risk now. That, plus the obvious fact that being caught before almost ruined his career, are the reasons he is less likely. And your comparison to outright criminals is a bit of a stretch.

 

Also, at his age, putting on more strength is not unusual. Doing it in their late 30's is another matter.

 

I'm not saying Quintana is definitely clean. I am saying the likelihood of any given player right now doing it is fairly low, and for a guy who almost lost his career as a result of a penalty, he's even less likely to do it.

 

[Dick Allen]

That's the annoying thing about this entire drug testing mess...all of that can make sense easily.

 

Guys do get stronger. Guys who are in their early 20's build muscle mass all the time. Guys who are in their early 20's and go from "A-ball level trainers" to "I just earned $500k and I'm on a major league roster and now I have access to their weight room and nutritional information" could readily be expected to put on some serious mass and strength during offseason conditioning. Guys who are having a huge jump in innings, like Q was last year, could readily be expected to lose some velocity and then have it come back the next year.

 

Colon of course was already suspended once for steroids directly linked to the Biogenesis clinic, so no it's already established he didn't recover naturally.

 

But that's the real annoying thing here; guys can legitimately get stronger and better and that's exactly what you should expect in a guy's early to mid 20's. That's why I'm hoping I can finally have confidence in the testing program, because if it is finally olympic-quality it's going to be very tough to beat long-term and we can stop having this discussion.

 

You can't have confidence in the testing program. Everyone suspended this week didn't fail a test. And previous failures do cause more suspicion. Maybe Quintana did this clean. Maybe he did not.

 

[Balta1701]

You can't have confidence in the testing program. Everyone suspended this week didn't fail a test. And previous failures do cause more suspicion. Maybe Quintana did this clean. Maybe he did not.

Everyone suspended this week was suspended for drugs they were taking prior to the beginning of blood testing and regular monitoring of testosterone levels which started with the new CBA and should be in place right now.

 

And also take note...they did catch 3 guys from the biogenesis clinic with the previous tests. Braun, Colon, and Melky Cabrera were all caught by the urine tests with the remnants of the biogenesis drugs in their system, so even with the primitive previous test it was still able to catch some of the guys some of the time. Braun got off on a technicality but all 3 of them were caught by the previous tests.

[southsider2k5]

You can't have confidence in the testing program. Everyone suspended this week didn't fail a test. And previous failures do cause more suspicion. Maybe Quintana did this clean. Maybe he did not.

 

That testing was done under regiment that couldn't catch this stuff. This is different now.

[NorthSideSox72]

You can't have confidence in the testing program. Everyone suspended this week didn't fail a test. And previous failures do cause more suspicion. Maybe Quintana did this clean. Maybe he did not.

Of course you can, it is definitively a better program. Not perfect or impenetrable, but better. A lot. There is more testing, more random testing, more chemicals tested, adding blood tests, etc. It will catch more people as a percentage, and it will cause more fear of being caught.

 

The Biogenesis things were going on before the new testing regimen, by the way.

 

[Dick Allen]

Everyone suspended this week was suspended for drugs they were taking prior to the beginning of blood testing and regular monitoring of testosterone levels which started with the new CBA and should be in place right now.

 

And also take note...they did catch 3 guys from the biogenesis clinic with the previous tests. Braun, Colon, and Melky Cabrera were all caught by the urine tests with the remnants of the biogenesis drugs in their system, so even with the primitive previous test it was still able to catch some of the guys some of the time. Braun got off on a technicality but all 3 of them were caught by the previous tests.

Still a rather small percentage and their were allegedly several more names that didn't get suspended because of lack of evidence. While I think juicing is down, I'm still confident there are more than a couple players on every team knowingly using some banned substance.

[Dick Allen]

Of course you can, it is definitively a better program. Not perfect or impenetrable, but better. A lot. There is more testing, more random testing, more chemicals tested, adding blood tests, etc. It will catch more people as a percentage, and it will cause more fear of being caught.

 

The Biogenesis things were going on before the new testing regimen, by the way.

Has anyone been caught with the new tests? You can't really think no one is using anymore.

[NorthSideSox72]

Has anyone been caught with the new tests? You can't really think no one is using anymore.

huh? Who said no one is using anymore?

 

You will get better discussion from people if you stay away from hyperbole.

 

[witesoxfan]

Everyone suspended this week was suspended for drugs they were taking prior to the beginning of blood testing and regular monitoring of testosterone levels which started with the new CBA and should be in place right now.

 

And also take note...they did catch 3 guys from the biogenesis clinic with the previous tests. Braun, Colon, and Melky Cabrera were all caught by the urine tests with the remnants of the biogenesis drugs in their system, so even with the primitive previous test it was still able to catch some of the guys some of the time. Braun got off on a technicality but all 3 of them were caught by the previous tests.

 

Yasmani Grandal as well