Bernstein: White Sox Column/Thoughts

[Y2Jimmy0]

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2013/08/07/ber...e-sox-optimism/

 

Pretty decent column. Bernstein has been talking about the Sox primarily for the 1st half hour. He mentioned how he has been talking to some people and they brought up how important it is to be as flexible as they are financially. He said that the Sox could be a team that takes on bad contracts in the final years as long as other teams are trading prospects with those contracts. It's interesting and something that I have thought of.

 

Many of us had said the same things. They will have a ton of money in the coming years, high draft picks, and a ton of young cost-controlled pitching.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Y2JImmy0

[Eminor3rd]

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2013/08/07/ber...e-sox-optimism/

 

Pretty decent column. Bernstein has been talking about the Sox primarily for the 1st half hour. He mentioned how he has been talking to some people and they brought up how important it is to be as flexible as they are financially. He said that the Sox could be a team that takes on bad contracts in the final years as long as other teams are trading prospects with those contracts. It's interesting and something that I have thought of.

 

Many of us had said the same things. They will have a ton of money in the coming years, high draft picks, and a ton of young cost-controlled pitching.

 

And this is one of the biggest reasons we don't ned to trade Sale. We are in a position to make moves to be competitive as early as 2015.

[TaylorStSox]

It's almost like Hahn and KW had a backup plan in case the team flopped. All the bad contracts expire at the same time.

[Eminor3rd]

It's almost like Hahn and KW had a backup plan in case the team flopped. All the bad contracts expire at the same time.

 

I think they just figured they had a window. If you remember, there was talk of KW getting fired the year before Hahn took over, but he stayed. I think they looked at whaty they had and said "well, we might as well let the 'KW' team play it out, because it could plausibly win, and if it doesn't we give Hahn a shot." So I think they were purposely not signing additional long-term contracts because they were looking forward to a clean slate for Rick.

[bmags]

That was a good article. His commentary on sox recently has been somewhat incoherent, and this was much more clear. I disagree with their insistence that Garcia be called up right away and viciedo dropped, yet also maintaining team should be bad as possible. If Viciedo sucks, why drop him? He's not costing much anyway, and he could possibly develop.

[Balta1701]

I think they just figured they had a window. If you remember, there was talk of KW getting fired the year before Hahn took over, but he stayed. I think they looked at whaty they had and said "well, we might as well let the 'KW' team play it out, because it could plausibly win, and if it doesn't we give Hahn a shot." So I think they were purposely not signing additional long-term contracts because they were looking forward to a clean slate for Rick.

Well that and they also really weren't going to be competitive for guys like Pujols.

 

They spent their money in 2011 on Dunn and Rios to try to compete that year and it blew up in their collective faces. None of those guys were in a position to wind up with contracts any longer than the Sox gave them; the length of the contract was also determined by the price point the Sox were playing at.

[TaylorStSox]

I think they just figured they had a window. If you remember, there was talk of KW getting fired the year before Hahn took over, but he stayed. I think they looked at whaty they had and said "well, we might as well let the 'KW' team play it out, because it could plausibly win, and if it doesn't we give Hahn a shot." So I think they were purposely not signing additional long-term contracts because they were looking forward to a clean slate for Rick.

Well, it's my understanding that Hahn and KW were almost like co-GM's for years and the plan was always for Hahn to take the reigns. The contract situation was like a fail safe.

[macsandz]

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2013/08/07/ber...e-sox-optimism/

 

Pretty decent column. Bernstein has been talking about the Sox primarily for the 1st half hour. He mentioned how he has been talking to some people and they brought up how important it is to be as flexible as they are financially. He said that the Sox could be a team that takes on bad contracts in the final years as long as other teams are trading prospects with those contracts. It's interesting and something that I have thought of.

 

Many of us had said the same things. They will have a ton of money in the coming years, high draft picks, and a ton of young cost-controlled pitching.

 

It's funny how people are starting to see what Hahn is doing. He's so much different from KW and I think people are suprised by this. Rick's idea was for the team to have a ton more flexibility going forward much earlier than, say, the Cubs or other rebuilds you find in baseball.

[Eminor3rd]

Well, it's my understanding that Hahn and KW were almost like co-GM's for years and the plan was always for Hahn to take the reigns. The contract situation was like a fail safe.

 

Yeah, I think you're right, I'm just saying it seems to me that at some point over the last couple years their thought process on free agency may have shifted from "i don't want to sign a guy for more than x years or y dollars" to, "I don't want to sign a guy past the year z, because that's the window we have leading into a transition."

[cabiness42]

Yeah, I think you're right, I'm just saying it seems to me that at some point over the last couple years their thought process on free agency may have shifted from "i don't want to sign a guy for more than x years or y dollars" to, "I don't want to sign a guy past the year z, because that's the window we have leading into a transition."

 

Signing a guy for x years is always a terrible idea. Never give out contracts longer than x-1 years.

 

[Marty34]

It's almost like Hahn and KW had a backup plan in case the team flopped. All the bad contracts expire at the same time.

 

Not all. Ramirez and Danks. This column illustrates the importance of getting the payroll as low as possible so that they can act as a facillitator of deals this offseason.

[Eminor3rd]

Signing a guy for x years is always a terrible idea. Never give out contracts longer than x-1 years.

 

[Dunt]

While that's great in theory, when has that really been practiced? I ask because I have no recollection of a team trading a bad contract along with a top prospect for nothing. Though I appreciate his otherwise positive outlook on the White Sox organization, Bernstein doesnt know s*** about White Sox. He knows nothing absolutely nothing about the farm system and doesnt actually follow most games.

[Buehrle>Wood]

While that's great in theory, when has that really been practiced? I ask because I have no recollection of a team trading a bad contract along with a top prospect for nothing. Though I appreciate his otherwise positive outlook on the White Sox organization, Bernstein doesnt know s*** about White Sox. He knows nothing absolutely nothing about the farm system and doesnt actually follow most games.

Yeah, spot on.

[Balta1701]

While that's great in theory, when has that really been practiced? I ask because I have no recollection of a team trading a bad contract along with a top prospect for nothing. Though I appreciate his otherwise positive outlook on the White Sox organization, Bernstein doesnt know s*** about White Sox. He knows nothing absolutely nothing about the farm system and doesnt actually follow most games.

Perhaps the closest examples might be the trades done by the Marlins and the Red Sox over the last year.

 

The Blue Jays and Dodgers wanted Jose Reyes and Adrian Gonzalez, respectively, but their teams didn't want to give them up for nothing, so the teams took on extra dollars in the form of bad contracts given to Mark Buehrle and Carl Crawford along with them. But, the teams taking on that salary also gave up a few players as well, they didn't send prospects along, just bad contracts.

[Eminor3rd]

Perhaps the closest examples might be the trades done by the Marlins and the Red Sox over the last year.

 

The Blue Jays and Dodgers wanted Jose Reyes and Adrian Gonzalez, respectively, but their teams didn't want to give them up for nothing, so the teams took on extra dollars in the form of bad contracts given to Mark Buehrle and Carl Crawford along with them. But, the teams taking on that salary also gave up a few players as well, they didn't send prospects along, just bad contracts.

 

Right, that would be more like sending Danks along with Peavy or something, if the team really wanted Peavy. The problem is though that that tactic only makes sense if clearing payroll is a priority we'd get less talent in that scenario in return for the salary relief. It's something that teams to do ino order to get to where Benrstein says we are now, which is relatively free of dead money.

 

So, it would have been asinine for Bernstein to cite those examples in his article. I don't think there's much precedent for the types of deals he is suggesting, nor are there many teams that would be good fits. The Phillies are really the only big-payroll team that is failing to contend, and they are showing no signs of financial pressure.

[Balta1701]

Right, that would be more like sending Danks along with Peavy or something, if the team really wanted Peavy. The problem is though that that tactic only makes sense if clearing payroll is a priority we'd get less talent in that scenario in return for the salary relief. It's something that teams to do ino order to get to where Benrstein says we are now, which is relatively free of dead money.

 

So, it would have been asinine for Bernstein to cite those examples in his article. I don't think there's much precedent for the types of deals he is suggesting, nor are there many teams that would be good fits. The Phillies are really the only big-payroll team that is failing to contend, and they are showing no signs of financial pressure.

Since you brought up the Phillies let's think about this with a concrete name.

 

What would the Phillies have to send along to get you to assume the entire contract of Ryan Howard? (3 years, $85 million remaining after this year counting buyout).

 

Is there anything they have that would make you willing to take on this deal if you were in Rick Hahn's position?

[Dick Allen]

Perhaps the closest examples might be the trades done by the Marlins and the Red Sox over the last year.

 

The Blue Jays and Dodgers wanted Jose Reyes and Adrian Gonzalez, respectively, but their teams didn't want to give them up for nothing, so the teams took on extra dollars in the form of bad contracts given to Mark Buehrle and Carl Crawford along with them. But, the teams taking on that salary also gave up a few players as well, they didn't send prospects along, just bad contracts.

But that isn't what he wrote. He said teams will give you their top prospects to take bad contracts off their hands. He said it's the new thing in baseball. He is full of s***. It hasn't happened. With the extra $25 million every team gets next year, it will make the desperation of gettimg rid of bad contracts even smaller. Teams will want to get rid of them without a doubt, but not for their top prospects, unless their top prospects aren't any good and they have a Pujols-like deal they want to dump. You could point this out to Bernstein but he would cut you off , hang up on you and call you stupid while you have dial tone.

 

But here, he's the idiot. In the NBA it might happen because of luxury tax and salary cap. Not in MLB. It is good to have money to spend. I will give him that, but taking on bad contracts of failed free agents doesn't make much sense when you could just sign other free agents.

[witesoxfan]

I could see teams giving up an average prospect. Someone who is probably going to be a major leaguer, maybe even a regular, but never super stud sort of player. In the Sox system, this could be anyone from Trayce Thompson to Keenyn Walker to Joey DiMichele to Jacob Petricka. But giving up Marcus Semien or Erik Johnson or Avisail Garcia just to rid themselves of the Danks contract (or Danks+Keppinger, or whatever)? No way in hell would a team do that. They are just going to try and recover what would appear to be sunk costs.

 

The one player that would have ever made sense was Alex Rodriguez, and it's likely he's not even going to be paid next year, so you can cross that one off.

[Eminor3rd]

Since you brought up the Phillies let's think about this with a concrete name.

 

What would the Phillies have to send along to get you to assume the entire contract of Ryan Howard? (3 years, $85 million remaining after this year counting buyout).

 

Is there anything they have that would make you willing to take on this deal if you were in Rick Hahn's position?

 

Man, that contract is so ugly. Ugh.

 

Honestly I don't think there is. I don't like what I've heard from some guys on Maikel Franco, and Jesse Biddle hasn't been able to find the strike zone. Joseph/Valle have modest ceilings. That's just SO much money, and you'd be robbing playing time from younger players. Having the DH open up after Konerko retires is kind of an asset, and Howard is possibly even worse than Dunn defensively at first.

 

They have some interesting pieces, but I'd need at least two of them to take the contract. I don't know if there's any one guy that's worth it.

[Eminor3rd]

But that isn't what he wrote. He said teams will give you their top prospects to take bad contracts off their hands. He said it's the new thing in baseball. He is full of s***. It hasn't happened. With the extra $25 million every team gets next year, it will make the desperation of gettimg rid of bad contracts even smaller. Teams will want to get rid of them without a doubt, but not for their top prospects, unless their top prospects aren't any good and they have a Pujols-like deal they want to dump. You could point this out to Bernstein but he would cut you off , hang up on you and call you stupid while you have dial tone.

 

But here, he's the idiot. In the NBA it might happen because of luxury tax and salary cap. Not in MLB. It is good to have money to spend. I will give him that, but taking on bad contracts of failed free agents doesn't make much sense when you could just sign other free agents.

 

Yeah, I think you're right here. There's really no precedent in baseball for this.

[Y2Jimmy0]

FWIW, Bernstein did mention that he talked to a few people that presented him with this concept. So it wasn't just "some idea" he came up with. Bernstein has a solo show on Friday and Hahn will join him from 5-530 live at US Cellular Field.

[Dick Allen]

FWIW, Bernstein did mention that he talked to a few people that presented him with this concept. So it wasn't just "some idea" he came up with. Bernstein has a solo show on Friday and Hahn will join him from 5-530 live at US Cellular Field.

Bernsrein mentioning the Sox and salary cap threshold shows he has absolutely no idea what he is writing about. He thinks it is the NBA.

[Eminor3rd]

FWIW, Bernstein did mention that he talked to a few people that presented him with this concept. So it wasn't just "some idea" he came up with. Bernstein has a solo show on Friday and Hahn will join him from 5-530 live at US Cellular Field.

 

It makes sense on paper and in a vaccuum, but it's never been done and there aren't really any good candidates, and you wouldn't get anything like the quality of prospects he's implying you'd get.

[Special K]

Bernsrein mentioning the Sox and salary cap threshold shows he has absolutely no idea what he is writing about. He thinks it is the NBA.

 

I think he was referring to luxury tax when he said "salary cap threshold".