Teams abandoning shift against Dunn

[hogan873]

I love the "looking back" argument. I'm not sure many people would say that the Adam Dunn signing worked out so well. So, most are going to "look back" and say it wasn't a good deal. But when he was signed, most people thought it was a good signing. I didn't say everyone thought it was a good move, so calm down if you're ready to say, "Well, I didn't like it!"

 

If you take away 2011, which I know you can't, Dunn has not been terrible. Worth the contract? Probably not, but how many players are? Dunn has his average almost up to his career average, and he's done that by making an adjustment. It was not an adjustment he needed to make in the past. But he's done it now, and it's working.

 

Looking forward, if Dunn can hit .240ish with 30+ HRs and 90+ RBIs next year, that'll be fine. Again, I'm not saying it's production worthy of the contract, but what's done is done. Enough with the looking back argument. Let's look forward.

[LittleHurt05]

So you would rather Dunn have hit 20 extra singles last year while sacrificing 10 homers, correct? That's the argument you're making. If so, why not just sacrifice all those homers and get 60 extra hits? I mean, really, honestly, I think Alexei Ramirez would make a great DH.

 

Calling it phantom production is a crock of s***. Production, no matter how you come up with it, is PRODUCTION. Dunn is a flawed player, but to suggest he was "bad" last year is like saying Jake Peavy was "bad" last year.

 

Juan Pierre for DH!!!

[witesoxfan]

You know, if Konerko had just not sucked in 2003, the Sox might have won the division that year and they certainly would have won the World Series too. Better yet, Jerry Manuel would be hailed as the greatest White Sox manager of all time and he'd be going on his 15th year of service with the team.

 

Damn that Paul Konerko, YOU RUINED JERRY'S LIFE!

[TaylorStSox]

41/96/333/800 led the league in walks. I can't say that guy was unproductive.

Edited August 20, 2013 by TaylorStSox

[TaylorStSox]

Dunn has some strange stats. It's hard to believe he played in at least 158 games 7 times. He's been really healthy for a guy his size.

[southsider2k5]

I love the "looking back" argument. I'm not sure many people would say that the Adam Dunn signing worked out so well. So, most are going to "look back" and say it wasn't a good deal. But when he was signed, most people thought it was a good signing. I didn't say everyone thought it was a good move, so calm down if you're ready to say, "Well, I didn't like it!"

 

If you take away 2011, which I know you can't, Dunn has not been terrible. Worth the contract? Probably not, but how many players are? Dunn has his average almost up to his career average, and he's done that by making an adjustment. It was not an adjustment he needed to make in the past. But he's done it now, and it's working.

 

Looking forward, if Dunn can hit .240ish with 30+ HRs and 90+ RBIs next year, that'll be fine. Again, I'm not saying it's production worthy of the contract, but what's done is done. Enough with the looking back argument. Let's look forward.

 

The Dunn speculation and signing was very, very positive on Soxtalk.

 

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=79910

[Eminor3rd]

Interesting point: The FO asked Dunn to change his approach going into this year despite his "productive" 2012. Even in his comeback year management insisted he change his approach. So many of you cling to his 41 HR 100 RBI as production, like he wasn't a problem last year. Management disagrees with you...why is that? I think I know.

 

110 hits. That's right. 110 hits all year out of the 3-hole. That's a minimum of 52 games without a hit. Lucky for everybody I did the math. He actually went hitless in 69 games last year. 69 if I added right. He started 145 games in the #3 spot and got a hit in barely half of them.

 

Phantom production at its finest IMO. Sure you can't discount the 41 HRs just like you can't discount the 430 PA that ended in s***.

 

Except that all research on batting order over the last five year has concluded that high contact rates out of the 3-hole have been extremely overrated historically, and that the 2, 4, and 5 spots actually benefit much more from the "traditional" 3 hole profile, which just happens to be ENTIRELY consistent with RV's use of the 2 spot, having put Kevin Youkilis there last year and having a rotating cast of the hottest contact hitters (Gillaspie, Beckham, Ramirez) in the 2 spot all of this year.

 

Your speculation about management's attitude toward Dunn is just that -- speculation. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not. There's just as much "evidence" to go against it.

[almagest]

Except that all research on batting order over the last five year has concluded that high contact rates out of the 3-hole have been extremely overrated historically, and that the 2, 4, and 5 spots actually benefit much more from the "traditional" 3 hole profile, which just happens to be ENTIRELY consistent with RV's use of the 2 spot, having put Kevin Youkilis there last year and having a rotating cast of the hottest contact hitters (Gillaspie, Beckham, Ramirez) in the 2 spot all of this year.

 

Your speculation about management's attitude toward Dunn is just that -- speculation. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not. There's just as much "evidence" to go against it.

For all of the hate against him, I feel like Ventura has done a good job at constructing the lineup. Unfortunately, he doesn't have much to work with.

 

[Eminor3rd]

For all of the hate against him, I feel like Ventura has done a good job at constructing the lineup. Unfortunately, he doesn't have much to work with.

 

I agree, especially last year. This year, understandably, it's been more like "just move the hottest hands up toward the front."

[TaylorStSox]

Keeping Alexei in the 2 hole cost the team some runs. Now that he's moved out of it, his approach is better.

[pettie4sox]

Loads of hindsight geniuses posting on this particular thread...

 

ahem greg ahem jerksticks

[Eminor3rd]

Keeping Alexei in the 2 hole cost the team some runs. Now that he's moved out of it, his approach is better.

 

Do you have evidence of this?

[chw42]

Loads of hindsight geniuses posting on this particular thread...

 

ahem greg ahem jerksticks

 

Had Dunn changed approach and sucked..."STUPID DUNN, WHY DID HE CHANGE? NOW HE'S NOT HITTING 40 HOME RUNS ANYMORE!"

 

The funny thing is, despite hitting about 35 points better, Dunn's wRC+ is only 6% better than it was last year. SO MUCH CHANGE!

 

He might be more consistent on a daily basis, but the overall production you get from him isn't all that different. Whatever pleases the meatballs, I guess.

Edited August 20, 2013 by chw42

[oldsox]

I heard some TV announcer a week or two ago talking about Dunn, saying that IF he averages 40 homers per year for the next four years (after this year) that he will be knocking on the door of 600 lifetime Home Runs and thus earning Hall of Fame consideration. He is currently at 434. Can't remember who said it, might have been one of the ESPN talking heads. He will turn 34 right after season end. I had an immediate gag reflex. His lifetime BA is .240 by the way. I hope that the HOF selectors don't count just HR totals but you never know.

[Jake]

He's been really good. If he keeps it up long enough to hit 600 bombs, I don't know how you could deny him entry. I don't think he'll hit 600.

[LittleHurt05]

I heard some TV announcer a week or two ago talking about Dunn, saying that IF he averages 40 homers per year for the next four years (after this year) that he will be knocking on the door of 600 lifetime Home Runs and thus earning Hall of Fame consideration. He is currently at 434. Can't remember who said it, might have been one of the ESPN talking heads. He will turn 34 right after season end. I had an immediate gag reflex. His lifetime BA is .240 by the way. I hope that the HOF selectors don't count just HR totals but you never know.

 

IF he can get to 550-600 home runs without PED suspicion, I think he absolutely deserves consideration. There's not that many names up there, that's a pretty impressive career. Harmon Killebrew's career BA was .256.

[greg775]

IF he can get to 550-600 home runs without PED suspicion, I think he absolutely deserves consideration. There's not that many names up there, that's a pretty impressive career. Harmon Killebrew's career BA was .256.

 

It's funny how in the Pro Football Hall of Fame you pretty much can't get in unless you win and win big. It's totally different in baseball. But in my opinion, Baseball's Hall simply cannot ever consider Dunn unless he wins something. You are talking about a guy no other team will even acquire at his current salary! Nobody in baseball wants him, folks, at his current salary. And we're talking HALL OF FAME?

Edited August 20, 2013 by greg775

[Kyyle23]

It's funny how in the Pro Football Hall of Fame you pretty much can't get in unless you win and win big. It's totally different in baseball. But in my opinion, Baseball's Hall simply cannot ever consider Dunn unless he wins something. You are talking about a guy no other team will even acquire at his current salary! Nobody in baseball wants him, folks, at his current salary. And we're talking HALL OF FAME?

 

how many players have hit 600 homeruns, Greg? Forget about salary, other teams wanting him, etc.

[greg775]

how many players have hit 600 homeruns, Greg? Forget about salary, other teams wanting him, etc.

 

I believe only 8 have hit 600. What a nonsequitir, however, re. Dunn. Right now, nobody would even claim him on waivers because of fear the White Sox would just let him go. It just confounds me. We have a guy basically no team wants who could make the Hall of Fame. It's unprecedented.

[Kyyle23]

I believe only 8 have hit 600. What a nonsequitir, however, re. Dunn. Right now, nobody would even claim him on waivers because of fear the White Sox would just let him go. It just confounds me. We have a guy basically no team wants who could make the Hall of Fame. It's unprecedented.

 

BECAUSE ONLY 8 PEOPLE IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME HAVE HIT THAT MANY HOMERUNS WHY IS THAT SO HARD FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND?!?!?!

[Kyyle23]

Ok, for real now. Adam Dunns worth to another team right now doesnt do anything to change the fact that he could join an elite list of homerun hitters in the hall of fame. It doesnt make him one of the best overall players to ever play the game, but rather makes him one of the best power hitters to ever play the game.

[cabiness42]

I believe only 8 have hit 600. What a nonsequitir, however, re. Dunn. Right now, nobody would even claim him on waivers because of fear the White Sox would just let him go. It just confounds me. We have a guy basically no team wants who could make the Hall of Fame. It's unprecedented.

 

This is probably going to be like talking to a brick wall, but here it goes anyway: Waiver claim decisions aren't made in a vacuum. Lots of players from every team are on waivers at the same time. Teams can't risk claiming multiple high salary guys because on the off chance they get stuck with all of them, they are totally screwed. Teams have to prioritize who they claim. DUNN GOING UNCLAIMED DOES NOT MEAN THAT NO TEAM WANTS HIM. It just means that he was not #1 on any team's list. With lots of starting pitchers and position players on waivers at the same time, a DH not getting claimed makes sense. As we've seen with Peavy and Rios, teams are reluctant right now to part with top prospects, so sitting on Dunn right now isn't Hahn's worst option at all.

 

[pettie4sox]

BECAUSE ONLY 8 PEOPLE IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME HAVE HIT THAT MANY HOMERUNS WHY IS THAT SO HARD FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND?!?!?!

 

Banned for excessive caps.

[chw42]

BECAUSE ONLY 8 PEOPLE IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME HAVE HIT THAT MANY HOMERUNS WHY IS THAT SO HARD FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND?!?!?!

 

You know who should be in the HOF? Juan Pierre.

[Kyyle23]

You know who should be in the HOF? Juan Pierre.

 

Pierre doesnt have the distinction of being one of the elite in any category. This is all contingent on Dunn hitting 600 homeruns of course, which means he will have to play pretty well for the rest of his career.