Flowers to have shoulder surgery

[ptatc]

Skin was also stitched together I heard.

My sources said stapled. Yours must be idiots or LIARS.

[Eminor3rd]

Sounds like a typical Jon Morosi scoop on the surgery.

[witesoxfan]

I heard he was looking for you and your magical socks, Wite...

 

Not sure what those would do other than cause more problems for Tyler. First he sucks at baseball, then he's forever alone.

[iamshack]

Not sure what those would do other than cause more problems for Tyler. First he sucks at baseball, then he's forever alone.

It was something along the lines of your spunk having mystical healing properties...

[Buehrle>Wood]

http://www.csnchicago.com/white-sox-talk/v...severity-injury

This sounds like a late excuse to being one of the worst players in MLB. If I were him, I would do the same to try and salvage my soon to be over major league career.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Buehrle>Wood

[witesoxfan]

This sounds like a late excuse to being one of the worst players in MLB. If I were him, I would do the same to try and salvage my soon to be over major league career.

 

There have been 10 CATCHERS who have had atleast 100 plate appearances who have had WORSE seasons in the majors this year than Flowers, let alone other s***ty position players and pitchers, and one of those 10 has been the White Sox starter for better part of the second half. And he did that with possible tears and frays in his shoulder too (which makes it sounds like a sad song was playing in that thing all year long). He was also a great backup catcher for the White Sox in 2012, was twice a top 100 prospect, once a top 60 prospect, and has a strong background in the minor leagues. He's worth another shot, and I hope he gets it from the Sox.

 

Instead of using a rational thought process regarding Tyler Flowers, you let your mind go to the most extreme state possible without considering anything else. Maybe, at the end of the day, all Tyler Flowers becomes is a AAAA, journeyman, minor league fodder, organizational player who bounces between the majors and minors until he quits. Maybe he's actually a starter in the form of a Chris Snyder or Russell Martin or Mike Napoli. Maybe it's somewhere in between. But, instead of using blind thought and declaring him one of the worst players in the majors - he was bad, but not nearly among the worst, and that's WITH this shoulder injury - maybe you should take a step back and do a little research into the matter before making these absurd statements.

[Steve9347]

We've seen the last of him.

Only if we're lucky.

[Buehrle>Wood]

There have been 10 CATCHERS who have had atleast 100 plate appearances who have had WORSE seasons in the majors this year than Flowers, let alone other s***ty position players and pitchers, and one of those 10 has been the White Sox starter for better part of the second half. And he did that with possible tears and frays in his shoulder too (which makes it sounds like a sad song was playing in that thing all year long).

 

There's been just 30 worse players than him among players with as many plate appearances. Only one catcher has had a worse OPS (I'm shocked there is one). Sure, he's no Jeff Keppinger, but I'm shocked someone is trying to rationalize his performance. If he was hurting as bad as he says he was, he would and should have said something to Herm. Either way he's at fault. This new excuse certainly sounds like a last grasp to stay in the major leagues.

 

He was also a great backup catcher for the White Sox in 2012, was twice a top 100 prospect, once a top 60 prospect, and has a strong background in the minor leagues. He's worth another shot, and I hope he gets it from the Sox.

"Great backup"? Do you even remember last year? Dude was f***ing awful for a good chunk of the season and was very lucky to have a roster spot coming back after the all-star break. He somehow had a nice second half and conned the front office in thinking he could become a starter, a decision that would prove to be disastrous if we weren't so awful elsewhere. His prospect rankings are meaningless, but you know that. He is not deserving of a second shot, and certainly not from the Sox where if we are gonna take a chance on someone, it's Phegley.

 

Instead of using a rational thought process regarding Tyler Flowers, you let your mind go to the most extreme state possible without considering anything else. Maybe, at the end of the day, all Tyler Flowers becomes is a AAAA, journeyman, minor league fodder, organizational player who bounces between the majors and minors until he quits. Maybe he's actually a starter in the form of a Chris Snyder or Russell Martin or Mike Napoli. Maybe it's somewhere in between. But, instead of using blind thought and declaring him one of the worst players in the majors - he was bad, but not nearly among the worst, and that's WITH this shoulder injury - maybe you should take a step back and do a little research into the matter before making these absurd statements.

 

And maybe you should stop coming blindly to the defense of a horrible MLBer. He's had his chances. More than enough of one. It's time to move on. This seems clear to just about everybody else.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Buehrle>Wood

[LittleHurt05]

This sounds like a late excuse to being one of the worst players in MLB. If I were him, I would do the same to try and salvage my soon to be over major league career.

 

He might have learned it from the team captain.

[Soxfest]

Tyler Flowers will need 2-3 months of recovery time after undergoing exploratory surgery on his right shoulder Thursday

 

Flowers initially hurt the shoulder over a year ago, and the injury never properly healed. He'll be ready to roll for the start of spring training.

 

Per Rotoworld

[NorthSideSox72]

There's been just 30 worse players than him among players with as many plate appearances. Only one catcher has had a worse OPS (I'm shocked there is one). Sure, he's no Jeff Keppinger, but I'm shocked someone is trying to rationalize his performance. If he was hurting as bad as he says he was, he would and should have said something to Herm. Either way he's at fault. This new excuse certainly sounds like a last grasp to stay in the major leagues.

 

 

"Great backup"? Do you even remember last year? Dude was f***ing awful for a good chunk of the season and was very lucky to have a roster spot coming back after the all-star break. He somehow had a nice second half and conned the front office in thinking he could become a starter, a decision that would prove to be disastrous if we weren't so awful elsewhere. His prospect rankings are meaningless, but you know that. He is not deserving of a second shot, and certainly not from the Sox where if we are gonna take a chance on someone, it's Phegley.

 

 

 

And maybe you should stop coming blindly to the defense of a horrible MLBer. He's had his chances. More than enough of one. It's time to move on. This seems clear to just about everybody else.

 

Did Flowers sleep with your girlfriend or something? I've never seen a poster so determined to eviscerate a player as you with Tyler. It's downright bizarre.

 

I mean, he hasn't been very good. No one is arguing otherwise. But now you think he's faking an injury? Bizarro.

 

[woodstox]

This sounds like a late excuse to being one of the worst players in MLB. If I were him, I would do the same to try and salvage my soon to be over major league career.

 

It was never played up much in articles, but his shoulder "barking" has been mentioned off and on throughout the season by Ventura and Parent (especially when Phegley was called up). This isn't something that just sprung up out of nowhere, it's been an issue all year. I feel like Robin's playing a little defense now that he got questions about it.

 

I don't understand why some people just have it out for the guy. Some of you seem to be actively rooting for him to fail.

[Buehrle>Wood]

Did Flowers sleep with your girlfriend or something? I've never seen a poster so determined to eviscerate a player as you with Tyler. It's downright bizarre.

 

I mean, he hasn't been very good. No os arguing otherwise. But now you think he's faking an injury? Bizarro.

Did he blow you or something? Why come to the defense of such a s***ty player?

 

I never said he's faking an injury right now. He's just using it as an excuse for his past s***tiness.

[Buehrle>Wood]

It was never playpeople w up much in articles, but his shoulder "barking" has been mentioned off and on throughout the season by Ventura and Parent (especially when Phegley was called up). This isn't something that just sprung up out of nowhere, it's been an issue all year. I feel like Robin's playing a little defense now that he got questions about it.

 

I don't understand why some people just have it out for the guy. Some of you seem to be actively rooting for him to fail.

So people have it out for a player by pointing out how awful he is? There must be a lot of people who have it out for Ramon Troncosco then.

[NorthSideSox72]

Did he blow you or something? Why come to the defense of such a s***ty player?

 

I never said he's faking an injury right now. He's just using it as an excuse for his past s***tiness.

I said he hasn't been very good. Who's defending him?

 

And your second line is hilarious. Using it as an excuse, faking it, whatever... your obsession with the guy is just weird.

 

[Buehrle>Wood]

I said he hasn't been very good. Who's defending him?

 

And your second line is hilarious. Using it as an excuse, faking it, whatever... your obsession with the guy is just weird.

So instead of keeping on attacking me, can you maybe provide some actual value on the discussion instead? Is that too much to ask?

[southsider2k5]

So instead of keeping on attacking me, can you maybe provide some actual value on the discussion instead? Is that too much to ask?

 

Actual discussion would be that guys play worse when they are hurt. It isn't really an excuse as much as it is reality. How much it affected his performance is about impossible to quantify until we see how he performs without the injury. Could be a little, could be a lot. I don't see the need to be so angry and petty about it.

[witesoxfan]

There's been just 30 worse players than him among players with as many plate appearances. Only one catcher has had a worse OPS (I'm shocked there is one).

 

Yet there have been more catchers than that that have been less valuable and actually hurt their teams more in fewer plate appearances. I could get 50 ABs from the White Sox from the catcher position, and I would literally cost them every single game, but at least I don't have as many ABs as Flowers does so I would be a better option. That is the argument you are making.

 

Sure, he's no Jeff Keppinger, but I'm shocked someone is trying to rationalize his performance. If he was hurting as bad as he says he was, he would and should have said something to Herm. Either way he's at fault. This new excuse certainly sounds like a last grasp to stay in the major leagues.

 

If he was hurt? Then the struggles make sense. What's Phegley's excuse? That he's a rookie and only has 165 plate appearances? Then in all reality, he's pretty much had the exact same chance as Flowers has as a full time starter.

 

You're right, he should have said something to Herm, and he did, which is why he was on the pitchers' shoulder program. Rehab didn't work over the course of the season, so they cut it open. He admitted that having the starting job and trying to prove that he could handle it was the biggest motivator in hiding how much it was affecting him. If you had your dream job on a silver platter, I imagine you'd do what you could to try and secure it too.

 

Oh, and I'm going to bet that Flowers is going to remain in the majors for a while. When there are teams like the Marlins running out guys like Jeff Mathis, Kyle Skipworth, Miguel Olivo, Koyie Hill, and Rob Brantly, then there are going to be teams who will take on a catcher like Flowers.

 

"Great backup"? Do you even remember last year? Dude was f***ing awful for a good chunk of the season and was very lucky to have a roster spot coming back after the all-star break. He somehow had a nice second half and conned the front office in thinking he could become a starter, a decision that would prove to be disastrous if we weren't so awful elsewhere. His prospect rankings are meaningless, but you know that. He is not deserving of a second shot, and certainly not from the Sox where if we are gonna take a chance on someone, it's Phegley.

 

"Somehow had a nice second half." That's total bull and you know it. He had a fantastic second half and they play 2 halves. He struggled in the beginning but started to come on when he started to receive more playing time. The fact is, he was one of the Sox best hitters in the second half of last year.

 

Point is, there's no reason to get rid of him unless someone else comes on board. I think we've all made that pretty clear.

 

Oh, and I really don't see how I'm coming to the defense of Flowers. I don't see how anyone has. If he's not back, I really don't think anyone's going to be upset. It's you who tries to discredit any and everything Flowers has ever done by using irrational and, at times, illogical arguments to make your point. So, if and when the Sox strike out on McCann in the offseason, and the Sox are trotting out Phegley and Flowers again next year, I'm not going to be surprised.

[Dick Allen]

If Flowers thought it was affecting his performance, he should have had this surgery done months ago. I understand the finally getting your chance thing, but giving him the benefit of the doubt now saying he was beat up isn't the way to go. I do think he's fine as a back up, and it appears all went well with the surgery, very minimal damage. I don't know how it affected all his passed balls, but the bottom line is he is 27 years old and hasn't proved anything other than he has some power, has a tough time making contact and doesn't get on base very much, at the major league level.

 

I really doubt this problem took 60 or 70 points off his average or 100-150 points off his OPS. Planning like it did would be wrong.

[Buehrle>Wood]

Yet there have been more catchers than that that have been less valuable and actually hurt their teams more in fewer plate appearances. I could get 50 ABs from the White Sox from the catcher position, and I would literally cost them every single game, but at least I don't have as many ABs as Flowers does so I would be a better option. That is the argument you are making.

 

 

 

If he was hurt? Then the struggles make sense. What's Phegley's excuse? That he's a rookie and only has 165 plate appearances? Then in all reality, he's pretty much had the exact same chance as Flowers has as a full time starter.

 

You're right, he should have said something to Herm, and he did, which is why he was on the pitchers' shoulder program. Rehab didn't work over the course of the season, so they cut it open. He admitted that having the starting job and trying to prove that he could handle it was the biggest motivator in hiding how much it was affecting him. If you had your dream job on a silver platter, I imagine you'd do what you could to try and secure it too.

 

Oh, and I'm going to bet that Flowers is going to remain in the majors for a while. When there are teams like the Marlins running out guys like Jeff Mathis, Kyle Skipworth, Miguel Olivo, Koyie Hill, and Rob Brantly, then there are going to be teams who will take on a catcher like Flowers.

 

 

 

"Somehow had a nice second half." That's total bull and you know it. He had a fantastic second half and they play 2 halves. He struggled in the beginning but started to come on when he started to receive more playing time. The fact is, he was one of the Sox best hitters in the second half of last year.

 

Point is, there's no reason to get rid of him unless someone else comes on board. I think we've all made that pretty clear.

 

Oh, and I really don't see how I'm coming to the defense of Flowers. I don't see how anyone has. If he's not back, I really don't think anyone's going to be upset. It's you who tries to discredit any and everything Flowers has ever done by using irrational and, at times, illogical arguments to make your point. So, if and when the Sox strike out on McCann in the offseason, and the Sox are trotting out Phegley and Flowers again next year, I'm not going to be surprised.

Hey look, an actual rebuttal. There we go.

 

Okay, no matter what you think of Flowers, he has hurt this team negatively. Baseball Reference has a mere 100 players less valuable than him this season out of 1150 players. Fangraphs, 130 worse. Either way, not a pretty picture. I'm not going to sit here and argue whether he's bottom tier or second bottom tier. It's just bad.

 

Phegley's excuse is that he's younger and performed on some level this year. That's why you move forward with him over Flowers. That said, he shouldn't feel comfortable with the starting job either.

 

He did have a nice second half. Well, actually just a beast August and nothing else of note. But we shouldn't be making key future decisions based solely on a few week stretch when he hasn't shown much else at all.

 

You're right, no reason to get rid of him unless we bring someone else on board. But I would put those odds very very high. Waiting on A 27 right handed backup catcher makes no sense moving forward, no matter what our plan is.

 

Meant for this to be longer but I'm on mobile and my thumb hurts.

[TaylorStSox]

A hurt Flowers is still better than Phegley at every part of the game, including pitch calling. They both suck, but Flowers still has more potential IMO. He's also already been caught while Phegley hasn't. *wink wink*

[witesoxfan]

Hey look, an actual rebuttal. There we go.

 

Okay, no matter what you think of Flowers, he has hurt this team negatively. Baseball Reference has a mere 100 players less valuable than him this season out of 1150 players. Fangraphs, 130 worse. Either way, not a pretty picture. I'm not going to sit here and argue whether he's bottom tier or second bottom tier. It's just bad.

 

Phegley's excuse is that he's younger and performed on some level this year. That's why you move forward with him over Flowers. That said, he shouldn't feel comfortable with the starting job either.

 

He did have a nice second half. Well, actually just a beast August and nothing else of note. But we shouldn't be making key future decisions based solely on a few week stretch when he hasn't shown much else at all.

 

You're right, no reason to get rid of him unless we bring someone else on board. But I would put those odds very very high. Waiting on A 27 right handed backup catcher makes no sense moving forward, no matter what our plan is.

 

Meant for this to be longer but I'm on mobile and my thumb hurts.

 

I actually think we have found middle ground on all of this, which is honestly something I can say I never thought I'd see.

[NorthSideSox72]

A hurt Flowers is still better than Phegley at every part of the game, including pitch calling. They both suck, but Flowers still has more potential IMO. He's also already been caught while Phegley hasn't. *wink wink*

Is any part of this post based on some fact? The hint about Phegley being enhanced for example - any reason to believe that, at all? As for how they perform, I think it is still way too early to make that sort of judgment on Phegley, and maybe even on Flowers too.

 

[TaylorStSox]

Is any part of this post based on some fact? The hint about Phegley being enhanced for example - any reason to believe that, at all? As for how they perform, I think it is still way too early to make that sort of judgment on Phegley, and maybe even on Flowers too.

Flowers has performed better on every level outside AAA. A level where Phegley had an insane spike in numbers right at the time a lot of people were giving up on him. Outside of the stats, Flowers has a slow bat, but is swing his much smoother. Phegley probably has a better arm. I don't think much of either player, but I'd put my money on Flowers having a better career.

[NorthSideSox72]

Flowers has performed better on every level outside AAA. A level where Phegley had an insane spike in numbers right at the time a lot of people were giving up on him. Outside of the stats, Flowers has a slow bat, but is swing his much smoother. Phegley probably has a better arm. I don't think much of either player, but I'd put my money on Flowers having a better career.

You have to look at the entire picture - and with Phegley, that means digging a lot deeper than those numbers. Josh didn't get a full season of baseball in until 2012. He was assigned aggresively out of the draft, but still held his own. Then the health issues came up. Those issues, from ITP, by the way, are about a serious (sometimes deadly) chemical imbalance in his blood (which, to me, makes it highly unlikely he'd go injecting a bunch of stuff). Suddenly in 2012 he was at AAA after having very little development time - and he still, again, held his own, though not spectacularly.

 

His spike in 2013 was not as out of the blue as people think it was. He was drafted as bat-heavy, supplemental 1st rounder.