Reasons Rick Hahn Would Land Cano

[Jerksticks]

Something like 3/100M or for 4/110. Pay extra to avoid lengthy contract.

 

1. Energizes fanbase. Shows he won't settle for a crap team or a lengthy rebuild.

 

2. Strike while cubs are bad to steal casual fan. Cubs are another 3-5 years from being good, and that's being conservative.

 

3. Use the pitching while it's cheap and go for it. Since the pitching is cheap he can splurge on offense a little.

 

4. Changes public image to Dick Hahn, Rick's badass alter ego.

 

 

[2nd_city_saint787]

I'm certainly not against it but I'd rather get multiple good pieces vs 1 great piece.

[max power]

Considering the number of problems this team has offensively signing 2 players would be a more effective use of that money.

[Jerksticks]

I think he could still sign Ellsbury if he wanted too. We could contend for real if we spend. Our minors need another 2-3 years for offense to turn out.

 

Does $40-50M per year get you those 2? Tickets would sell.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

I would much rather have Slick Rick sign Ellsbury than Cano, for financial reasons, and to finally get rid of De Aza.

[LittleHurt05]

While I would love for your scenario to play out, Cano will never accept such a short deal. Why risk free agency again when someone will offer him a 9 or 10 year deal?

[lasttriptotulsa]

Cano is looking to get a contract in the neighborhood of $250 million. I'd have to say there is zero chance he would accept a 3 or 4 year deal. Even if the per year was obscene it might still end up costing him money. He would be in his mid thirties by the time a 4 year deal would be done and would be looking at getting less per year than if just signs a 10 year deal this offseason. Not to mention the risk of injury costing him huge money. I am completely against signing Cano. Give me some combination of Abreu, Ellsbury and McCann and call it a day. You could probably get any two of those players for the cost of Cano and it addresses multiple needs instead on one.

[witesoxfan]

This is not White Sox related, but why do you assume the Cubs are 3-5 years away and the Sox are not? I think the Sox spending big to try and be competitive right away again is a bad idea.

[Eminor3rd]

While I would love for your scenario to play out, Cano will never accept such a short deal. Why risk free agency again when someone will offer him a 9 or 10 year deal?

 

[Balta1701]

Robinson Cano is not going to want to become a free agent again when he's 34-35. Even if he has 3-4 MVP caliber seasons the best he'd be hoping for then is a 3 year deal worth maybe $50-$60 million because of his age. If you want to make it worth it to him to sign a 3 year deal then you need to offer him 3/$150 or more.

[2nd_city_saint787]

 

This is not White Sox related, but why do you assume the Cubs are 3-5 years away and the Sox are not? I think the Sox spending big to try and be competitive right away again is a bad idea.

 

 

How do you figure? Or by "big" do you mean signing a guy like Cano or to a lesser extent Ellsbury? Adding 2 pieces like Abreu and McCann then trying to swing a deal for a 3rd offensive piece and the Sox very well could be competitive.

 

To your first sentence, I think it's all about whether the Sox wanna spend money before they do and/or all their kids start making an impact in the bigs.

 

With the junk we have hitting wise in the minors right now the Sox are further away if they don't wanna open the check book IMO.

[Balta1701]

This is not White Sox related, but why do you assume the Cubs are 3-5 years away and the Sox are not? I think the Sox spending big to try and be competitive right away again is a bad idea.

The White Sox pitching staff is 5th in MLB with 17.4 WAR on the season.

 

The Cubs pitching staff is 23rd in MLB with 9.3 WAR on the season.

 

There is only 1 team in the bottom 15 in MLB in pitching WAR currently in the playoffs (Baltimore). That means 9 of the top 15 teams in pitching WAR are likely in the playoffs this year and a number of others are just on the outside.

[witesoxfan]

How do you figure? Or by "big" do you mean signing a guy like Cano or to a lesser extent Ellsbury? Adding 2 pieces like Abreu and McCann then trying to swing a deal for a 3rd offensive piece and the Sox very well could be competitive.

 

To your first sentence, I think it's all about whether the Sox wanna spend money before they do and/or all their kids start making an impact in the bigs.

 

With the junk we have hitting wise in the minors right now the Sox are further away if they don't wanna open the check book IMO.

 

I mean spending a ton of money on 28 and 30 year old free agents would be a poor investment because they'll likely command 5-6 year contracts and you will valuable production for only 3 of those seasons. Abreu is fine, and if they spend big on him, I don't mind. Spending $20-25 mill a year on Robinson Cano is not the best use of assets.

 

The White Sox pitching staff is 5th in MLB with 17.4 WAR on the season.

 

The Cubs pitching staff is 23rd in MLB with 9.3 WAR on the season.

 

There is only 1 team in the bottom 15 in MLB in pitching WAR currently in the playoffs (Baltimore). That means 9 of the top 15 teams in pitching WAR are likely in the playoffs this year and a number of others are just on the outside.

 

(the Orioles are not in the playoffs right now...you're looking Red Sox, Tigers, Athletics, Rangers, Rays)

 

The Cubs offense is also 19th in the league with 16 WAR and the Sox are 29th with 2.3, with only the incompetence of the Miami Marlins worse at -1.1 WAR. The lowest ranked playoff team is the Rangers with the 15th ranked offense at 18.6 WAR. On top of that, the Cubs, as a team, have 4.7 UZR/150, while the Sox are at -2.3 Add it all up and it's 17.4 for the White Sox and 30 for the Cubs. Plus the Cubs have the prospects to acquire some top flight pitching too. Some of those numbers were also due to DeJesus and Soriano, who they obviously will not have, but I just think, in general, the Cubs have more talent, specifically young talent, offensively.

Edited September 9, 2013 by witesoxfan

[Y2Jimmy0]

The White Sox are not getting Robinson Cano. Might as well close this thread too because nothing of substance will come of it either. People arguing in a relevant thread about people being happy about the White Sox losing gets shutdown but a pipedream thread about the Sox getting a guy that will require a 10 year $300 million deal is alive and kicking? Very funny.

[Balta1701]

(the Orioles are not in the playoffs right now...you're looking Red Sox, Tigers, Athletics, Rangers, Rays)

 

The Cubs offense is also 19th in the league with 16 WAR and the Sox are 29th with 2.3, with only the incompetence of the Miami Marlins worse at -1.1 WAR. The lowest ranked playoff team is the Rangers with the 15th ranked offense at 18.6 WAR. On top of that, the Cubs, as a team, have 4.7 UZR/150, while the Sox are at -2.3 Add it all up and it's 17.4 for the White Sox and 30 for the Cubs. Plus the Cubs have the prospects to acquire some top flight pitching too. Some of those numbers were also due to DeJesus and Soriano, who they obviously will not have, but I just think, in general, the Cubs have more talent, specifically young talent, offensively.

Wow, ok, so there's not a single team in the bottom 15 in the playoffs then, and 66% of the top 15 are in the playoffs.

 

Ergo, I conclude it's somewhat easy to build a contending team when you have pitching and darn near impossible when you don't.

 

My next question is...which is easier to fix, lineup and defensive deficiencies or pitching deficiencies? The Cubs actually signed a free agent pitcher last year, Jackson, and that didn't help them, and they basically have no pitching on the way up. The White Sox have money to spend at positions where there are lineup contributors available as free agents. I judge it's much easier to fix a lineup through free agency than it is to fix a rotation.

 

Furthermore, the White Sox in 2012, with many of these same players, were a positive fielding team, with a 1.3 UZR/150. Thus the numbers show that there's little reason to think the White Sox should be nearly as bad of a fielding team as seen this year.

 

The Cubs will need to add >10 WAR to their pitching staff to be competitive. The White Sox need to add something like 15 WAR to their offense to be competitive while getting their defense back to 2012 levels. I clearly think the latter is much, much easier.

[witesoxfan]

I think it's a horse apiece. I don't think either team is team is anywhere close to being competitive for a playoff birth next season or even the season after without committing $150-200 million (or more) to their rosters over the next 3-5 seasons. Of the two teams, I think the Cubs are far likelier to do that. I also don't beleive that's a sustainable model for success and would hope and pray that the Sox don't do so, despite what bucket has suggested they will look to do.

[ewokpelts]

there's talk he's going to get $300 million. and from the yankees.

 

why would he want to go to chicago?

[2nd_city_saint787]

The White Sox pitching staff is 5th in MLB with 17.4 WAR on the season.

 

The Cubs pitching staff is 23rd in MLB with 9.3 WAR on the season.

 

There is only 1 team in the bottom 15 in MLB in pitching WAR currently in the playoffs (Baltimore). That means 9 of the top 15 teams in pitching WAR are likely in the playoffs this year and a number of others are just on the outside.

 

I won't pretend to know how WAR works and I hate to defend the Cubs but that stat is pretty surprising to me considering the Cubs have actually given up 10 less runs than the Sox....I know a lot of that has to do with guys like Axelrod, Troncoso, and Omogrosso who could easily be replaced by guys like Leesman, Petrika, and Webb or a free agent or 2. Still though that doesn't change the fact.

 

I mean spending a ton of money on 28 and 30 year old free agents would be a poor investment because they'll likely command 5-6 year contracts and you will valuable production for only 3 of those seasons. Abreu is fine, and if they spend big on him, I don't mind. Spending $20-25 mill a year on Robinson Cano is not the best use of assets.

 

I tend to agree on Cano, only because the length he'll command will be more than a guy like McCann. A guy like McCann probably gets a 4-5 year contract and I'm not sold he'll break down at 33-35...AJ is still going strong at 36 and both he and McCann broke in at age 21.

 

Even just adding Abreu(if he turns into what we all want him to be) and hopefully getting another impact piece in a trade will put us close to contending with this staff

Edited September 9, 2013 by scs787

[lasttriptotulsa]

there's talk he's going to get $300 million. and from the yankees.

 

why would he want to go to chicago?

 

I think he stays with the Yankees, but I doubt they go to $300 million. After the Arod fiasco I think they will be a little leery about committing that kind of money to players when they're in their late 30's/40's.

Edited September 9, 2013 by lasttriptotulsa

[southsider2k5]

This is not White Sox related, but why do you assume the Cubs are 3-5 years away and the Sox are not? I think the Sox spending big to try and be competitive right away again is a bad idea.

 

With the young pitching they have, the offense doesn't have to be nearly as great.

[witesoxfan]

I won't pretend to know how WAR works and I hate to defend the Cubs but that stat is pretty surprising to me considering the Cubs have actually given up 10 less runs than the Sox....I know a lot of that has to do with guys like Axelrod, Troncoso, and Omogrosso who could easily be replaced by guys like Leesman, Petrika, and Webb or a free agent or 2. Still though that doesn't change the fact.

 

It has more to do with peripherals and park factors than that. Leeman and Axelrod and whoever still count amongst the White Sox pitching WAR.

 

Fangraphs looks at a pitcher's performance individually rather than as runs allowed. Basically, they see that the White Sox defense has been worse than the Cubs defense this season and they have still only allowed 10 fewer runs while they play against better offenses in a tougher pitcher's park, thus, their pitching staff should be better.

 

 

I tend to agree on Cano, only because the length he'll command will be more than a guy like McCann. A guy like McCann probably gets a 4-5 year contract and I'm not sold he'll break down at 33-35...AJ is still going strong at 36 and both he and McCann broke in at age 21.

 

You are comparing a fat, injury prone catcher to a catcher who has, historically, been one of the healthiest and most durable to have ever played the game, and that he hasn't broken down yet is a testament to him. Full-time catchers typically begin breaking down around 32-34. So, unless you have looked at his medical history and know all those numbers, you are making that suggestion based on gut feeling, which, good for you, but it's not good enough for me.

 

Instead, if you sign McCann to a 5 year deal, you're expectations are basically C/1B the first 2 seasons and 1B/DH the next 3.

[thxfrthmmrs]

Wow, ok, so there's not a single team in the bottom 15 in the playoffs then, and 66% of the top 15 are in the playoffs.

 

Ergo, I conclude it's somewhat easy to build a contending team when you have pitching and darn near impossible when you don't.

 

My next question is...which is easier to fix, lineup and defensive deficiencies or pitching deficiencies? The Cubs actually signed a free agent pitcher last year, Jackson, and that didn't help them, and they basically have no pitching on the way up. The White Sox have money to spend at positions where there are lineup contributors available as free agents. I judge it's much easier to fix a lineup through free agency than it is to fix a rotation.

 

Furthermore, the White Sox in 2012, with many of these same players, were a positive fielding team, with a 1.3 UZR/150. Thus the numbers show that there's little reason to think the White Sox should be nearly as bad of a fielding team as seen this year.

 

The Cubs will need to add >10 WAR to their pitching staff to be competitive. The White Sox need to add something like 15 WAR to their offense to be competitive while getting their defense back to 2012 levels. I clearly think the latter is much, much easier.

 

One issue is the checkbook. The Cubs will always have more money to spend than us. I don't think it would be hard to for them to go out and sign a pitcher or two.

 

Another issue is prospects. In 3 years, the Cubs offense could be one of the best in the league, if Baez, Soler, Almora, and Bryant pans out, with Jimenez knocking on the door. I don't think they would have to drastically upgrade their pitching to be competitive. While I don't see any of the Sox position prospects being able to contribute significantly in 3 years.

 

Last issue is defense. As it looks now, our outfield defense is brutal. Rios was one of our better defenders for the past two years, and now we are replacing him with Garcia, who is a terrible defender as is it now, and doesn't project to be an above average defender in the future, won't solve our defense shortcomings like you think it would, in the short run.

 

Last last issue, which is debatable. If you want Theo or Rick to run a rebuilding franchise, personally I would take Theo 4 times out of 5.

Edited September 9, 2013 by thxfrthmmrs

[Dick Allen]

I can't see Cano leaving the Yankees. Jay Z has a lot to lose if it was thought he steered him out of there.

 

Stone keeps mentioning McCann. If the Sox were to get him, and dreaming Abreu, plus some development from the youngsters, they wouldn't be that far off. Cleveland made it interesting this year bringing in a couple of decent players and a couple they already got rid of.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Dick Allen

[2nd_city_saint787]

It has more to do with peripherals and park factors than that. Leeman and Axelrod and whoever still count amongst the White Sox pitching WAR.

 

Fangraphs looks at a pitcher's performance individually rather than as runs allowed. Basically, they see that the White Sox defense has been worse than the Cubs defense this season and they have still only allowed 10 fewer runs while they play against better offenses in a tougher pitcher's park, thus, their pitching staff should be better.

 

 

 

 

You are comparing a fat, injury prone catcher to a catcher who has, historically, been one of the healthiest and most durable to have ever played the game, and that he hasn't broken down yet is a testament to him. Full-time catchers typically begin breaking down around 32-34. So, unless you have looked at his medical history and know all those numbers, you are making that suggestion based on gut feeling, which, good for you, but it's not good enough for me.

 

Instead, if you sign McCann to a 5 year deal, you're expectations are basically C/1B the first 2 seasons and 1B/DH the next 3.

 

Gotcha on the first portion, like I said I won't pretend to know how it works but your explanation makes sense.

 

As for the bold, with Dunn perhaps leaving after next year I'm fine with making McCann the DH. I know it leaves a hole once again at catcher, perhaps Phegley further develops and becomes competent there in 2015, but putting McCann at DH could keep him healthy and productive for the duration of his contract. His .819 OPS would be in the top 5 amongst DHs.

 

 

[Eminor3rd]

I won't pretend to know how WAR works and I hate to defend the Cubs but that stat is pretty surprising to me considering the Cubs have actually given up 10 less runs than the Sox....I know a lot of that has to do with guys like Axelrod, Troncoso, and Omogrosso who could easily be replaced by guys like Leesman, Petrika, and Webb or a free agent or 2. Still though that doesn't change the fact.

 

Assuming he's referring to fWAR, the easy way to understand it is that it's assigning runs prevented based on DIPS (defense independent pitching statistics) theory. So it's purpose is to remove the influence of the defense behind the pitcher. When you consider how superbad the Sox defense has been, the disparity in runs scored versus fWAR actually makes a ton of sense. This is probably a really great example of when fWAR for pitchers is really helpful.

 

Digression for the sake of explanation: In its current state, fWAR actually cuts a little too far for the sake of accuracy over completeness -- it is generally believed that DIPS actually deny pitchers credit for their ability to induce weak contact.