Reasons Rick Hahn Would Land Cano

[lasttriptotulsa]

Unless he's due a significant pay bump, I see no reason not to bring Veal back. He could return to the 2012 version.

 

He has one more year of pre-arb status left. The Sox will pay him whatever they feel he is worth. Probably $500k, just over the minimum. Then his first year of arbitration he might get $1 million if he has a decent season next year.

[Marty34]

Exactly. The time is now. Our winning pitching window just opened.

 

The Sox are going to lose 95+ games the time isn't now.

[pettie4sox]

The Sox are going to lose 95+ games the time isn't now.

 

Come on Marty look what the Red Sox did in one year. They went from zero to hero!

[Eminor3rd]

The Sox are going to lose 95+ games the time isn't now.

 

Exactly. 2014 is a "transitional year." You go into it with the primary goal of seeing what you have. The kids get a chance to break out or fade away. Now you know what your core is, and you set to gradually improve each year going forward. It isn't splash time.

[Eminor3rd]

Come on Marty look what the Red Sox did in one year. They went from zero to hero!

 

Right but also look at what the Jays did. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't. The Red Sox also already had a ton more talent than us. Pedroia, Ortiz, Ellsbury, Salty. Their offseason was about finding a new group of complementary pieces.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Eminor3rd

[Marty34]

Right but also look at what the Jays did. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't. The Red Sox also already had a ton more talent than us. Pedroia, Ortiz, Ellsbury, Salty. Their offseason was about finding a new group of complementary pieces.

 

Not to mention a far better system.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Marty34

[Chicago White Sox]

Exactly. 2014 is a "transitional year." You go into it with the primary goal of seeing what you have. The kids get a chance to break out or fade away. Now you know what your core is, and you set to gradually improve each year going forward. It isn't splash time.

The problem is that free agency isn't what it used to be. Therefore, if there are guys out there this offseason that solve critical needs and may not break the bank, like possibly Abreu & McCann, you pretty much have to pursue them. Obviously you don't do anything stupid, but you don't pass on them because 2014 might be a transitional year. Otherwise, you may be waiting a long time before there's anything worth using your financial flexibility on.

 

In all honesty, if we're afraid to spend some money in free agency this offseason to fix the offense, then we might as well blow the whole thing up. No reason to waste our young pitching staff while we wait 2 or 3 years for our better offensive prospects to even be ready for callups. Either sign some free agents and try to compete while buying some time for your top prospects to develop or go the full rebuild route. Throwing away the surplus value our young starters will likely provide us is by far the worst decision the organization can make right now.

[greg775]

Exactly. 2014 is a "transitional year." You go into it with the primary goal of seeing what you have. The kids get a chance to break out or fade away. Now you know what your core is, and you set to gradually improve each year going forward. It isn't splash time.

 

The problem is what kids are you talking about? I would think sample sizes are growing big enough to suggest DeAza and Tank are not good major leaguers. Ditto Beckham (hitting wise; great glove). Kepp is a disaster and Conor is not a major league caliber regular. He's a super sub type.

Catcher is also a huge black hole; Paulie is about done and Dunn is Dunn. Blah.

So I don't understand what our "core" is besides A. Garcia. Sox need to spend some money and make the RIGHT DECISIONS this time at several positions.

We're going to need to trade 2 starters in our system as well to get an impact bat that way. Which 2? Better make the right call on that, Rick H.

 

p.s. I am not TOTALLY against keeping DeAza and Tank but you have to admit there are huge ? marks regarding those 2 guys now.

Edited September 9, 2013 by greg775

[Eminor3rd]

The problem is that free agency isn't what it used to be. Therefore, if there are guys out there this offseason that solve critical needs and may not break the bank, like possibly Abreu & McCann, you pretty much have to pursue them. Obviously you don't do anything stupid, but you don't pass on them because 2014 might be a transitional year. Otherwise, you may be waiting a long time before there's anything worth using your financial flexibility on.

 

I agree with this 100%. I'm sorry, I thought I mentioned that already. Target any player, FA or not, that is properly or undervalued that will provide value beyond 2015.

[Eminor3rd]

The problem is what kids are you talking about? I would think sample sizes are growing big enough to suggest DeAza and Tank are not good major leaguers. Ditto Beckham (hitting wise; great glove). Kepp is a disaster and Conor is not a major league caliber regular. He's a super sub type.

Catcher is also a huge black hole; Paulie is about done and Dunn is Dunn. Blah.

So I don't understand what our "core" is besides A. Garcia. Sox need to spend some money and make the RIGHT DECISIONS this time at several positions.

We're going to need to trade 2 starters in our system as well to get an impact bat that way. Which 2? Better make the right call on that, Rick H.

 

p.s. I am not TOTALLY against keeping DeAza and Tank but you have to admit there are huge ? marks regarding those 2 guys now.

 

You're right we don't have much, but that's unfortunately why a couple free agents isn't enough to make it happen. It's a rough situation, but spending money in free agency not only won't solve it, but it'll but the solution off even further. This is the product of selling out the system and drafting poorly for several years -- it works out fine as long as all of your acquisitions keep working out, but if a few of them bomb at the same time, you can't do anything until the money clears. This is why so many of us feel like high draft picks and prospects are important, because we don't want to see ourselves in this position again. We want Hahn to bite the bullet and do this right so that we an be back to expecting our team to be competitive years after year. This stuff won't help much next year, you're right, but a couple expensive old FAs won't help enough to get us a winner, so we have no choice but to bide our time. We're going to have to eat it for a little while, but if we stay the course, it won't have to be for long. If we get all rash and impatient, we're most likely going to be frustratingly in the middle for a long time.

[greg775]

I'd demand to see an accurate birth certificate on Abreu by the way. I'd like the Sox's future a lot better if we had a stud catcher like KC's Sal Perez. If the Sox sign Abreu and Grandy, I wouldn't mind seeing us bring back AJP one year. I know that makes us older, but not that much. You are subbing Grandy for DeAza (trade him for whatever you can get) while waiting for the Sox's outfield prospects to develop and subbing Abreu for Paulie.

If those 2 guys hit and Beckham, Lexi and A. Garcia have big seasons, you could use an AJP for a season. Phegs can be AJ's sub.

 

Arguably, Abreu, Grandy and AJ could help this lineup. True we would get much older in one swoop, but like I said they aren't blocking anybody and the young outfielders become that much closer to being ready for the bigs. I'm talking about Mitchell, Thompson, etc. What do you think? Forget about the fact I'm adding age; think about how I'm adding bats and the age of these guys won't matter in a year or two anyway when the young guys are ready. I'd pass on McCann for now and just give it to AJ for 3-4 million a year while putting off long-range plans for a stellar catcher one more year. With AJ available and still not finished ... why not take advantage of the cost savings there??

 

On paper, this lineup has a fighting chance to win some of the close games we lost this season. Of course if the defense remains crap, it will not matter a bit what changes we make. DEFENSE MUST COMPLEMENT THE PITCHING!!

Edited September 10, 2013 by greg775

[ron883]

I'd demand to see an accurate birth certificate on Abreu by the way. I'd like the Sox's future a lot better if we had a stud catcher like KC's Sal Perez. If the Sox sign Abreu and Grandy, I wouldn't mind seeing us bring back AJP one year. I know that makes us older, but not that much. You are subbing Grandy for DeAza (trade him for whatever you can get) while waiting for the Sox's outfield prospects to develop and subbing Abreu for Paulie.

If those 2 guys hit and Beckham, Lexi and A. Garcia have big seasons, you could use an AJP for a season. Phegs can be AJ's sub.

 

Arguably, Abreu, Grandy and AJ could help this lineup. True we would get much older in one swoop, but like I said they aren't blocking anybody and the young outfielders become that much closer to being ready for the bigs. I'm talking about Mitchell, Thompson, etc. What do you think? Forget about the fact I'm adding age; think about how I'm adding bats and the age of these guys won't matter in a year or two anyway when the young guys are ready. I'd pass on McCann for now and just give it to AJ for 3-4 million a year while putting off long-range plans for a stellar catcher one more year. With AJ available and still not finished ... why not take advantage of the cost savings there??

 

On paper, this lineup has a fighting chance to win some of the close games we lost this season. Of course if the defense remains crap, it will not matter a bit what changes we make. DEFENSE MUST COMPLEMENT THE PITCHING!!

I wouldn't be surprised if AJ juiced last year. i dont buy that jump in homeruns at that age. either way, going on 37, i expect a significant decline for a catcher. no thanks.

[Dick Allen]

You're right we don't have much, but that's unfortunately why a couple free agents isn't enough to make it happen. It's a rough situation, but spending money in free agency not only won't solve it, but it'll but the solution off even further. This is the product of selling out the system and drafting poorly for several years -- it works out fine as long as all of your acquisitions keep working out, but if a few of them bomb at the same time, you can't do anything until the money clears. This is why so many of us feel like high draft picks and prospects are important, because we don't want to see ourselves in this position again. We want Hahn to bite the bullet and do this right so that we an be back to expecting our team to be competitive years after year. This stuff won't help much next year, you're right, but a couple expensive old FAs won't help enough to get us a winner, so we have no choice but to bide our time. We're going to have to eat it for a little while, but if we stay the course, it won't have to be for long. If we get all rash and impatient, we're most likely going to be frustratingly in the middle for a long time.

As much as I didn't admire KW, I think everyone needs to keep one thing straight. The farmhands for the most part he "sold off" weren't going to make the White Sox any better than they are. Gio is an exception, but other than that, he traded a bunch of garbage for mostly garbage, but I would say he came out ahead overall. There is no doubt the Sox haven't developed hitters worth a darn for an alarming length of time, but it's not like the guys he traded became stars. They couldn't hit for their new teams.

[witesoxfan]

I wouldn't be surprised if AJ juiced last year. i dont buy that jump in homeruns at that age. either way, going on 37, i expect a significant decline for a catcher. no thanks.

 

I would be 100% surprised and devastated as a fan of not only the White Sox but baseball in general if AJ was juicing. It's not as if Pierzynski doesn't have power, or hasn't had decent home run seasons in the past. Because the guy has a career high during a contract season, we get posts like "I wouldn't be surprised if he was juicing" when teammates suggest that he was afraid to touch energy drinks for fear of testing positive.

 

This idea is ridiculous.

[Eminor3rd]

I wouldn't be surprised if AJ juiced last year. i dont buy that jump in homeruns at that age. either way, going on 37, i expect a significant decline for a catcher. no thanks.

 

That's the kind of thing you'd say if you didn't actually watch him play at all. Having watch 120 or so games of him last year, I have absolutely no reason to accuse him of juicing -- he simply ran into more balls last year. None of them were cheapies, none of them looked anything different than his normal homers. A lot of them were on breaking balls low and inside that he was notorious for whiffing on so much the year before. It was very clearly just an adjustment he made to be able to look for those pitches in two strike counts, in reaction to an adjustment pitchers made to him never looking for that pitch before.

[Eminor3rd]

As much as I didn't admire KW, I think everyone needs to keep one thing straight. The farmhands for the most part he "sold off" weren't going to make the White Sox any better than they are. Gio is an exception, but other than that, he traded a bunch of garbage for mostly garbage, but I would say he came out ahead overall. There is no doubt the Sox haven't developed hitters worth a darn for an alarming length of time, but it's not like the guys he traded became stars. They couldn't hit for their new teams.

 

It's much less about KW trading prospects and much more about the organization refusing to spend competitively on acquiring amateur talent. It's probably also a failure in player development.

[witesoxfan]

That's the kind of thing you'd say if you didn't actually watch him play at all. Having watch 120 or so games of him last year, I have absolutely no reason to accuse him of juicing -- he simply ran into more balls last year. None of them were cheapies, none of them looked anything different than his normal homers. A lot of them were on breaking balls low and inside that he was notorious for whiffing on so much the year before. It was very clearly just an adjustment he made to be able to look for those pitches in two strike counts, in reaction to an adjustment pitchers made to him never looking for that pitch before.

 

I immediately thought of his homer on May 1st versus Ubaldo. He was down 0-2, Ubaldo threw a fat backdoor change up on him, and AJ murdered it

 

 

Still, there's nothing special about it. He just was looking for a pitch, saw it, and killed it

[southsider2k5]

I would be 100% surprised and devastated as a fan of not only the White Sox but baseball in general if AJ was juicing. It's not as if Pierzynski doesn't have power, or hasn't had decent home run seasons in the past. Because the guy has a career high during a contract season, we get posts like "I wouldn't be surprised if he was juicing" when teammates suggest that he was afraid to touch energy drinks for fear of testing positive.

 

This idea is ridiculous.

 

I got the opposite read because of his personality. He will literally do anything to win. Stomp on a guys head as he rounds third base, knock a guy down in the baseline, etc. How thick is the line between something like that and steroids?

 

I will preface that by saying I have no evidence or anything one way or the other, but more his personality is as competitive as anyone in the history of baseball. That is what I am going off of. I don't know the guy at all, and don't pretend to.

[Dick Allen]

It's much less about KW trading prospects and much more about the organization refusing to spend competitively on acquiring amateur talent. It's probably also a failure in player development.

I think there is a problem identifying guys who are going to hit. They have developed pitching just fine, but you would think if they had drafted guys who could or would hit, considering how they have pawned off prospects on other teams, at least a couple of them over the years would have some success.

 

I understand they like the toolsy guys who they hope to develop, but almost all their top hitting prospects since Crede and Rowand and Jeremy Reed have been huge swing and miss ridiculously high strikeout rate guys who really don't offset that with a ton of homers and a good OBP. It's almost as if they draft the same player year after year and hope this time it will be different.

 

I'd like to see them just one draft, concentrate on baseball players the first several rounds, not athletes. Being incredibly fast or strong does you no good if you can't hit the ball, or lay off pitches out of the strike zone, or can get a decent jump.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Dick Allen

[Eminor3rd]

I think there is a problem identifying guys who are going to hit. They have developed pitching just fine, but you would think if they had drafted guys who could or would hit, considering how they have pawned off prospects on other teams, at least a couple of them over the years would have some success.

 

I understand they like the toolsy guys who they hope to develop, but almost all their top hitting prospects since Crede and Rowand and Jeremy Reed have been huge swing and miss ridiculously high strikeout rate guys who really don't offset that with a ton of homers and a good OBP. It's almost as if they draft the same player year after year and hope this time it will be different.

 

I'd like to see them just one draft, concentrate on baseball players the first several rounds, not athletes. Being incredibly fast or strong does you no good if you can't hit the ball, or lay off pitches out of the strike zone, or can get a decent jump.

 

I agree with this 100%. Seems like the Cardinals, in particular, have been immensely successful with this approach over the past decade.

[Swingandalongonetoleft]

 

Greatly enjoyed the inclusion of that there clip in your post.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Swingandalongonetoleft

[Y2Jimmy0]

I think there is a problem identifying guys who are going to hit. They have developed pitching just fine, but you would think if they had drafted guys who could or would hit, considering how they have pawned off prospects on other teams, at least a couple of them over the years would have some success.

 

I understand they like the toolsy guys who they hope to develop, but almost all their top hitting prospects since Crede and Rowand and Jeremy Reed have been huge swing and miss ridiculously high strikeout rate guys who really don't offset that with a ton of homers and a good OBP. It's almost as if they draft the same player year after year and hope this time it will be different.

 

I'd like to see them just one draft, concentrate on baseball players the first several rounds, not athletes. Being incredibly fast or strong does you no good if you can't hit the ball, or lay off pitches out of the strike zone, or can get a decent jump.

 

 

You are right. There is always a place for super athletic, toolsy players. The problem was that KW wanted athletic players and JR did not want to spend money on the draft. In turn, the Sox end up with players like Mitchell, Walker, and Thompson because of it.

[Balta1701]

You are right. There is always a place for super athletic, toolsy players. The problem was that KW wanted athletic players and JR did not want to spend money on the draft. In turn, the Sox end up with players like Mitchell, Walker, and Thompson because of it.

This reminds me a ton of the discussion about high/low ceiling pitchers. In 2005-2006, KW was drafting pitchers that were "low ceiling" guys, guys like Broadway, who had long college careers but didn't have the kind of stuff Chris Sale brings to the table. The idea was to get them up to the big leagues fairly quickly and possibly have them set up as trade bait.

 

People got mad because the Sox were taking "baseball" guys rather than drafting guys with big time talent and trying to develop them.

 

This strikes me as people being mad over precisely the reverse. Going after toolsy, high-risk, high-reward players is exactly what people spent years demanding the Sox do.

[ptatc]

This reminds me a ton of the discussion about high/low ceiling pitchers. In 2005-2006, KW was drafting pitchers that were "low ceiling" guys, guys like Broadway, who had long college careers but didn't have the kind of stuff Chris Sale brings to the table. The idea was to get them up to the big leagues fairly quickly and possibly have them set up as trade bait.

 

People got mad because the Sox were taking "baseball" guys rather than drafting guys with big time talent and trying to develop them.

 

This strikes me as people being mad over precisely the reverse. Going after toolsy, high-risk, high-reward players is exactly what people spent years demanding the Sox do.

I was going to post the same thing. I guess if you've been around long enough the pendulum swings all the way to the other side.

 

I guess the underlying theme is that whether you pick the "baseball" guy or the "athlete" you need to pick the right ones or develop them properly. Maybe it's the development piece.

[Dick Allen]

This reminds me a ton of the discussion about high/low ceiling pitchers. In 2005-2006, KW was drafting pitchers that were "low ceiling" guys, guys like Broadway, who had long college careers but didn't have the kind of stuff Chris Sale brings to the table. The idea was to get them up to the big leagues fairly quickly and possibly have them set up as trade bait.

 

People got mad because the Sox were taking "baseball" guys rather than drafting guys with big time talent and trying to develop them.

 

This strikes me as people being mad over precisely the reverse. Going after toolsy, high-risk, high-reward players is exactly what people spent years demanding the Sox do.

They can develop pitchers, so they might as well go with toolsy guys there. They simply cannot develop hitters, so a football player who has missed significant developmental time and is already at least a little behind the 8 ball, is even further behind with a team that has had trouble getting anyone to look like a major leaguer at the plate in almost a decade. And it's not only hitting. Most White Sox prospects don't seem to know what they are doing when they do reach base, or what is going on when they are in the field. There are exceptions there, but hitting is almost without exception. 3 recent first round draft choices and out of the 3, only 1 hit .200. He hit .201 with no power.

 

On the positive side, if MLB ever revisits and puts in a Designated Runner, the Sox should be set.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Dick Allen