Reasons Rick Hahn Would Land Cano

[iamshack]

Hahn made it pretty clear in an interview with Bernstein right after the trade deadline that in the past few seasons, when they were devoting most of the financial resources to the big league club, they thought the best use of their dollars was to take some shots at guys that were big risks but had big upsides. They knew most of these guys would miss, but they hoped that they would hit on one or two of them. Rather than draft the Lance Broadways and the Kyle McCulloch's of the world with what little dollars they had available, they figured they would buy a few lottery tickets instead. At least then, they might have a chance at someone with high upside, albeit slim.

 

 

[NorthSideSox72]

I was going to post the same thing. I guess if you've been around long enough the pendulum swings all the way to the other side.

 

I guess the underlying theme is that whether you pick the "baseball" guy or the "athlete" you need to pick the right ones or develop them properly. Maybe it's the development piece.

I think this nails it. You go for both, whichever presents the best value at that pick, whichever it may be. But the development piece needs to succeed either way, and for hitters, that has been a failure for years now.

 

Caveat; I think you may see a few hitters make impacts in the next year or two. Maybe.

 

I talked to a scout a few weeks ago down in NC, and he said something that was alarming to me. We were discussing various prospects, and I asked about one guy who had consistently high OBP numbers and walks... scout says yeah, but how many runs did he score? I said, I really don't know off hand. He said, well, if he doesn't score runs, he doesn't help me.

 

There is a flaw in that logic, from my perspective. Multiple flaws, really. I fear some of the pro scouts (not the ones who look for draft picks, the ones who analyze the current minor leaguers) may have an old school mindset, one set in the idea of generating runs. That is ultimately what you want in the majors of course, but I don't think looking at minor leaguers through that lens is the right approach. Just my opinion.

 

[Dick Allen]

I think this nails it. You go for both, whichever presents the best value at that pick, whichever it may be. But the development piece needs to succeed either way, and for hitters, that has been a failure for years now.

 

Caveat; I think you may see a few hitters make impacts in the next year or two. Maybe.

 

I talked to a scout a few weeks ago down in NC, and he said something that was alarming to me. We were discussing various prospects, and I asked about one guy who had consistently high OBP numbers and walks... scout says yeah, but how many runs did he score? I said, I really don't know off hand. He said, well, if he doesn't score runs, he doesn't help me.

 

There is a flaw in that logic, from my perspective. Multiple flaws, really. I fear some of the pro scouts (not the ones who look for draft picks, the ones who analyze the current minor leaguers) may have an old school mindset, one set in the idea of generating runs. That is ultimately what you want in the majors of course, but I don't think looking at minor leaguers through that lens is the right approach. Just my opinion.

I think it depends on the player you were talking about. All walks are not created equal. If it's a slow guy where it's going to take 3 hits to score him, or a really, really poor baserunner, a walk isn't worth as much as it is if the guy is Rickey Henderson JR. A walk also isn't worth as much if you don't have good hitters behind him, but that is the job of the scouts, GM, organization to make sure they do. So that would be on them and not the player IMO.

[southsider2k5]

They can develop pitchers, so they might as well go with toolsy guys there. They simply cannot develop hitters, so a football player who has missed significant developmental time and is already at least a little behind the 8 ball, is even further behind with a team that has had trouble getting anyone to look like a major leaguer at the plate in almost a decade. And it's not only hitting. Most White Sox prospects don't seem to know what they are doing when they do reach base, or what is going on when they are in the field. There are exceptions there, but hitting is almost without exception. 3 recent first round draft choices and out of the 3, only 1 hit .200. He hit .201 with no power.

 

On the positive side, if MLB ever revisits and puts in a Designated Runner, the Sox should be set.

 

Anderson hit .277, and Walker wasn't a first round pick, but a supplemental.

[NorthSideSox72]

I think it depends on the player you were talking about. All walks are not created equal. If it's a slow guy where it's going to take 3 hits to score him, or a really, really poor baserunner, a walk isn't worth as much as it is if the guy is Rickey Henderson JR. A walk also isn't worth as much if you don't have good hitters behind him, but that is the job of the scouts, GM, organization to make sure they do. So that would be on them and not the player IMO.

While I agree that not all walks are created equal, the scary thing to me about his statement was he wanted to look at run totals for a given prospect in the minors as an indication of future major league value. That, to me, is highly flawed, in part for some of the reasons you mentioned.

 

[Texsox]

I got the opposite read because of his personality. He will literally do anything to win. Stomp on a guys head as he rounds third base, knock a guy down in the baseline, etc. How thick is the line between something like that and steroids?

 

I will preface that by saying I have no evidence or anything one way or the other, but more his personality is as competitive as anyone in the history of baseball. That is what I am going off of. I don't know the guy at all, and don't pretend to.

 

I had not thought of AJ that way, but you make a nice argument. We could also add a "guilt by association" argument. However, I would be surprised if he did.

[Dick Allen]

The Sox also took a big chance with Joe Borchard. They gave him a lot of money at the time. He looked great as a 21-23 year old minor leaguer, except for the strikeouts his numbers were outstanding. Supposedly a great guy and hard worker as well. Total bust. Of course he was turned into Thornton, so not nearly a total loss.

[Eminor3rd]

Hahn made it pretty clear in an interview with Bernstein right after the trade deadline that in the past few seasons, when they were devoting most of the financial resources to the big league club, they thought the best use of their dollars was to take some shots at guys that were big risks but had big upsides. They knew most of these guys would miss, but they hoped that they would hit on one or two of them. Rather than draft the Lance Broadways and the Kyle McCulloch's of the world with what little dollars they had available, they figured they would buy a few lottery tickets instead. At least then, they might have a chance at someone with high upside, albeit slim.

 

I think this is it ^

 

Since the post-Borchard administration was not going to spend competitively, they could not expect to get high-end talent in the mid-rounds, so they had to choose from the next tier below. Seems when you are bargain shopping, you can choose high ceiling or high floor, but not both. The Buster Poseys and Evan Longorias are in a higher bracket.

 

But this is different now with the current CBA. Talent will be distributed much more based on draft pick and much less based on draft budget. This is good for us because it basically brings everyone else to the level Reinsdorf was going to stay anyway.

[southsider2k5]

Back to the subject of Hahn, he made some comments towards the off-season in today's Tribune.

 

Speaking on the off-season in general:

 

"We have work to do especially on the position-player side of things,and the main avenues outside the farm system are free agency and trade... And given our expectations the amount of work we have to do, I think we'll be active in both.

 

Speaking on the surplus of young pitching:

 

"It might be a strength we can dip into a little bit to help augment some other needs. It's not one we want to compromise too greatly because that is ultimately how we feel we'll be able to compete."

 

Sounds to me like the second tier of starting pitchers might be available for trade. It won't be their top guys, but maybe the next group.

 

[witesoxfan]

Maybe it's just me, but Hahn seems to be a refreshing change from Williams in his openness towards discussing this aspect of the team.

Edited September 10, 2013 by witesoxfan

[Rowand44]

Maybe it's just me, but Hahn seems to be a refreshing change from Williams in his openness towards discussing this aspect of the team.

BIG time. Just listening to him is such a change of pace, it's wonderful.

[witesoxfan]

BIG time. Just listening to him is such a change of pace, it's wonderful.

 

While Williams (and his team) had a great eye for picking out diamonds in the rough and frankly building a team that should compete, I don't feel as though he had a great grasp of the entire process. It just seems that, from top to bottom, Hahn understands how a team should be built and he's going about it the right way at this point and what he lacks in baseball acumen he's replacing with scouts that know what good ball players look like.

[iamshack]

While Williams (and his team) had a great eye for picking out diamonds in the rough and frankly building a team that should compete, I don't feel as though he had a great grasp of the entire process. It just seems that, from top to bottom, Hahn understands how a team should be built and he's going about it the right way at this point and what he lacks in baseball acumen he's replacing with scouts that know what good ball players look like.

I guess we will find out, but I think Williams worked closely with Hahn and so he had to know his thoughts on the matter and I would be shocked if he didn't weigh them fairly heavily. At the same time, I think Kenny realized the position the org was in between 2003-forward and that a postseason spot really was for the taking many of those years. He went and made some trades and ended up with a WS winner in '05 which, I am sure in his mind, validated his process. Even when Detroit resurrected their ballclub he still managed to put together teams that could compete with them, even as recently as last season. The temptation to grab that postseason spot, rather than refocus on "development" was too great for him to resist.

 

Now though, with Detroit, Cleveland, KC, and eventually Minnesota showing a lot more organizational strength moving forward, I think that temptation has subsided enough to where it is much easier to refocus our efforts on putting together a new core, where a focus on developing young players obviously plays a much larger role.

Edited September 10, 2013 by iamshack

[witesoxfan]

I guess we will find out, but I think Williams worked closely with Hahn and so he had to know his thoughts on the matter and I would be shocked if he didn't weigh them fairly heavily. At the same time, I think Kenny realized the position the org was in between 2003-forward and that a postseason spot really was for the taking many of those years. He went and made some trades and ended up with a WS winner in '05 which, I am sure in his mind, validated his process. Even when Detroit resurrected their ballclub he still managed to put together teams that could compete with them, even as recently as last season. The temptation to grab that postseason spot, rather than refocus on "development" was too great for him to resist.

 

Now though, with Detroit, Cleveland, KC, and eventually Minnesota showing a lot more organizational strength moving forward, I think that temptation has subsided enough to where it is much easier to refocus our efforts on putting together a new core, where a focus on developing young players obviously plays a much larger role.

 

I think much of that has to do with Williams' competitive drive. This isn't to say that Hahn isn't competitive or doesn't want to win, but I think Williams wanted to win every single year, whereas Hahn is more of a bigger picture guy. There were several years where the Sox really should have been rebuilding and tearing down and instead they built it back up. Hahn, while he hasn't gone full rebuild, did deal off quite a few big pieces this season. Williams never really dealt that many pieces at one time. That's more of what I was getting at, which I think we are kind of getting at.

 

Williams did seem to indicate he was close to going in this direction after 2010, but again, I think this transitional phase between GMs has always been the goal of the Sox. Now, that part is just my general belief and I have no proof of that whatsoever.

[southsider2k5]

I think much of that has to do with Williams' competitive drive. This isn't to say that Hahn isn't competitive or doesn't want to win, but I think Williams wanted to win every single year, whereas Hahn is more of a bigger picture guy. There were several years where the Sox really should have been rebuilding and tearing down and instead they built it back up. Hahn, while he hasn't gone full rebuild, did deal off quite a few big pieces this season. Williams never really dealt that many pieces at one time. That's more of what I was getting at, which I think we are kind of getting at.

 

Williams did seem to indicate he was close to going in this direction after 2010, but again, I think this transitional phase between GMs has always been the goal of the Sox. Now, that part is just my general belief and I have no proof of that whatsoever.

 

If this trade deadline is any indication, Hahn is a WAY more patient man than Kenny.

[Eminor3rd]

I think much of that has to do with Williams' competitive drive. This isn't to say that Hahn isn't competitive or doesn't want to win, but I think Williams wanted to win every single year, whereas Hahn is more of a bigger picture guy. There were several years where the Sox really should have been rebuilding and tearing down and instead they built it back up. Hahn, while he hasn't gone full rebuild, did deal off quite a few big pieces this season. Williams never really dealt that many pieces at one time. That's more of what I was getting at, which I think we are kind of getting at.

 

Williams did seem to indicate he was close to going in this direction after 2010, but again, I think this transitional phase between GMs has always been the goal of the Sox. Now, that part is just my general belief and I have no proof of that whatsoever.

 

At some point, too, your job becomes on the line. Outside of Brian Cashman, GMs have fairly short shelf lives. Seems like you get a free pass to "clean up" the previous GMs regime for a couple years, but once you're into win-now mode once, it seems like you have to keep winning to keep your job. Very few guys get to rebuild twice.

[iamshack]

At some point, too, your job becomes on the line. Outside of Brian Cashman, GMs have fairly short shelf lives. Seems like you get a free pass to "clean up" the previous GMs regime for a couple years, but once you're into win-now mode once, it seems like you have to keep winning to keep your job. Very few guys get to rebuild twice.

I think most owners these days realize that if you're going to try and build sustained success, it truly does need to be a process. The key is knowing when to be patient and when to cut bait and switch directions.

 

 

[Marty34]

This reminds me a ton of the discussion about high/low ceiling pitchers. In 2005-2006, KW was drafting pitchers that were "low ceiling" guys, guys like Broadway, who had long college careers but didn't have the kind of stuff Chris Sale brings to the table. The idea was to get them up to the big leagues fairly quickly and possibly have them set up as trade bait.

 

People got mad because the Sox were taking "baseball" guys rather than drafting guys with big time talent and trying to develop them.

 

This strikes me as people being mad over precisely the reverse. Going after toolsy, high-risk, high-reward players is exactly what people spent years demanding the Sox do.

 

People are upset with the results of Sox drafting. Nobody gives one damn about the process.

[greg775]

I wouldn't be surprised if AJ juiced last year. i dont buy that jump in homeruns at that age. either way, going on 37, i expect a significant decline for a catcher. no thanks.

 

I guess it's OK to question any player, but AJP juicing after what we've heard about him? Cmon. No way. Give our WS winning catcher a break.

 

I still say he'll be cheap, he may want to hit in the Cell again, he's not blocking anybody, Phegs can back him up and we can dump Flowers and we can figure out what to do about catcher in another year. Is this McCann guy really the answer? Will he even consider the Sox? I stand by my add AJP, Grandy and Abreu and PRAY Dayan, Beckham and Lexi have good hitting seasons to go with our star, A. Garcia. Maybe even sign another guy to take 150 or so of Dunn's at bats at DH. I'd play Semien at third as well. My simple solutions may make us a .500 team and IF our starters can start to dominate through 7 FRICKING INNINGS instead of six, we might have the bullpen to make us a contender.

Edited September 10, 2013 by greg775

[iamshack]

People are upset with the results of Sox drafting. Nobody gives one damn about the process.

The results are directly correlated to the process, don't you think?

[Marty34]

The results are directly correlated to the process, don't you think?

 

I don't think they were having success spotting low ceiling guys either unless they were intentionally drafting players who could not play in the majors. *Cough* Dave Wilder *cough*.

[southsider2k5]

I don't think they were having success spotting low ceiling guys either unless they were intentionally drafting players who could not play in the majors. *Cough* Dave Wilder *cough*.

 

They were drafting high floor guys with the hopes of turning them into either major leaguers or trade chips very quickly. The Dave Wilder stuff didn't have anything to do with the draft, it was international, Latin America specifically, but I am sure you knew that and ignored it to take another shot at the franchise.

 

Also worth pointing out that there is a very good chance that Andre Rienzo was one of the players Wilder brought into the system and skimmed from.

[caulfield12]

DUMB DUMB DUMB.

 

We should have learned this lesson with Albert Belle already, and then Dunn.

 

Dump Magglio/Lee/Ordonez=add Pods, Iguchi, Vizcaino, El Duque, Dye, AJ, Politte, Hermanson, McCarthy (internally), Jenks (FA/waivers). Still save money. In the previous year, added Uribe/Contreras/Floyd to the mix.

 

Same formula coming into 2008...adding Danks/Floyd/Quentin/Alexei to a 72 win team

 

 

You can't get all the way back with one HUGE move. You have to do it incrementally and not short circuit the process.

Edited September 10, 2013 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

Didn't Albert Belle hit 50 HR for the white sox that year?

[southsider2k5]

Didn't Albert Belle hit 50 HR for the white sox that year?

 

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