Rick Hahn on The Score right now....

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

If there was a White Sox catch-all thread, I would have put this there, but....I digress...

 

He just made a really interesting point to a caller who said our drafts every year are a bust....

 

According to Rick, he said from the 2008-2011 drafts, we lead all of baseball in accumulated WAR of those drafted player while we are DEAD LAST in dollars spent on those drafted player from 2008-1011.

 

Interesting.

[Chicago White Sox]

If there was a White Sox catch-all thread, I would have put this there, but....I digress...

 

He just made a really interesting point to a caller who said our drafts every year are a bust....

 

According to Rick, he said from the 2008-2011 drafts, we lead all of baseball in accumulated WAR of those drafted player while we are DEAD LAST in dollars spent on those drafted player from 2008-1011.

 

Interesting.

How much of that accumulated WAR is from Chris Sale and to a lesser extent Daniel Hudson? Two great picks plus Beckham & Reed and I'm guessing that's the bulk of our drafted WAR from those 4 drafts to date.

 

While our drafts have been better in recent years, I bet Sale accounts for +50% of that number, which makes Hahn's fact somewhat misleading. Sure we hit big on one of our picks and experienced quick returns, but let's not over-reward ourselves for that. Our overall drafting and lack of spending (historically) has left plenty to be desired. The new CBA rules really help us going forward though and we should see some significant returns from the 2011 draft next year with Erik Johnson & Marcus Semien.

Edited September 14, 2013 by Chicago White Sox

[chw42]

If there was a White Sox catch-all thread, I would have put this there, but....I digress...

 

He just made a really interesting point to a caller who said our drafts every year are a bust....

 

According to Rick, he said from the 2008-2011 drafts, we lead all of baseball in accumulated WAR of those drafted player while we are DEAD LAST in dollars spent on those drafted player from 2008-1011.

 

Interesting.

 

It's weird to see our GM citing advanced metrics.

 

Sale, Reed, and Jones have all been very valuable the last two years.

 

The issue with this organization is that we can't draft good position players. We've spent the majority of our picks on high ceiling athletes in recent drafts and most of them have been complete busts.

Edited September 15, 2013 by chw42

[iamshack]

It's weird to see our GM citing advanced metrics.

Yeah, it's great to know they are producing this kind of analysis regardless of whether the results are buoyed by Chris or not.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

How much of that accumulated WAR is from Chris Sale and to a lesser extent Daniel Hudson? Two great picks plus Beckham & Reed and I'm guessing that's the bulk of our drafted WAR from those 4 drafts to date.

 

While our drafts have been better in recent years, I bet Sale accounts for +50% of that number, which makes Hahn's fact somewhat misleading. Sure we hit big on one of our picks and experienced quick returns, but let's not over-reward ourselves for that. Our overall drafting and lack of spending (historically) has left plenty to be desired. The new CBA rules really help us going forward though and we should see some significant returns from the 2011 draft next year with Erik Johnson & Marcus Semien.

 

Yes, but a lot of other teams have hit on a couple superstars since 2008 too. I mean, look at the Angels for instance. They've accumulated over 20 WAR JUST from Mike Trout, yet we still outpaced them since 2008 according to Hahn.

 

And speaking of the Angels, not to derail my own thread, but holy s***, what a 2009 draft they had! In 2009, they drafted Mike Trout, Tyler Skaggs, Patrick Corbin, Garrett Richards, and a few lesser players who are in the bigs, but not anyone good. Now Skaggs did not sign, and instead signed the following year, but still, jesus they selected an amazing group. And yet we STILL have a higher accumulated WAR.

[Quin]

I remember seeing this in the offseason, so that it still holds true is interesting.

[Harry Chappas]

Micah Johnson is a G.

 

Not to shabby for the worst farm system in baseball most of those years. Kind of goes to show how those rankings go.

[Marty34]

If the farm system is that productive over the last four years why are we the third worst team in MLB this year?

[Balta1701]

And speaking of the Angels, not to derail my own thread, but holy s***, what a 2009 draft they had! In 2009, they drafted Mike Trout, Tyler Skaggs, Patrick Corbin, Garrett Richards, and a few lesser players who are in the bigs, but not anyone good. Now Skaggs did not sign, and instead signed the following year, but still, jesus they selected an amazing group. And yet we STILL have a higher accumulated WAR.

On top of that, the Angels have spent a couple of the biggest salary buys in baseball the last few offseasons, and they're still below .500. Impressive.

[fathom]

If the farm system is that productive over the last four years why are we the third worst team in MLB this year?

 

For starters, two of the veterans the Sox were counting on coming into the season have been just about the least valuable players in all of baseball (Konerko and Keppinger). Konerko is my favorite Sox player of all time and his Game 2 slam in the WS is my favorite sports moment of all time, but I really hope they don't bring him back after this season.

[Balta1701]

For starters, two of the veterans the Sox were counting on coming into the season have been just about the least valuable players in all of baseball (Konerko and Keppinger). Konerko is my favorite Sox player of all time and his Game 2 slam in the WS is my favorite sports moment of all time, but I really hope they don't bring him back after this season.

And as far as I can tell the team forgot to hire any staff other than a pitching coach this season, that hurts too. Can't figure out what they were thinking going into the season with no manager or practice.

[Marty34]

If there was a White Sox catch-all thread, I would have put this there, but....I digress...

 

He just made a really interesting point to a caller who said our drafts every year are a bust....

 

According to Rick, he said from the 2008-2011 drafts, we lead all of baseball in accumulated WAR of those drafted player while we are DEAD LAST in dollars spent on those drafted player from 2008-1011.

 

Interesting.

 

This confirms that WAR is damn near useless.

[Marty34]

And as far as I can tell the team forgot to hire any staff other than a pitching coach this season, that hurts too. Can't figure out what they were thinking going into the season with no manager or practice.

 

With a real manager you would have still been 15-20 games off your 90+ wins prediction.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Marty34

[GreenSox]

And as far as I can tell the team forgot to hire any staff other than a pitching coach this season, that hurts too. Can't figure out what they were thinking going into the season with no manager or practice.

Let's just hope they hire professional manager next year, instead of a JR/KW fav.

[Balta1701]

With a real manager you would have still been 15-20 games off your 90+ wins prediction.

Actually it'd be a helluva lot closer with the defense setup IMO, and a large portion of the remainder is Paul Konerko getting old. If you predicted that coming into this season, congratulations, I'd love to see the post where you suggested he needed traded and replaced.

 

If you don't have that, just go away and celebrate. Congratulations, you got a 90+ loss team, you must be so happy.

[kitekrazy]

Stats and reality don't always match up. Of course he is going to say something like that. It's not like this was ever going to be a trick question. The farm system still sucks.

[witesoxfan]

This confirms that WAR is damn near useless.

 

No it doesn't. The Sox have a good young group of pitchers and they've traded a few during that time frame too who have contributed at the MLB level for other teams, which will be included in the White Sox draft class. fathom mentioned Konerko and Keppinger, but frankly, when Dunn is struggling, he doesn't do anything else to add value to a team which takes away from his overall value. Beyond that, guys like Viciedo and De Aza have struggled too while Beckham and Ramirez have been merely passable options.

 

Using WAR to literally correlate to the stat "wins" is the incorrect usage of the statistic. WAR tries to take contextual information out of the process and value simply what a player does at the plate (or on the mound or in the field) under neutral circumstances and value that compared to all the other players at his position and in the game in general and give some idea as to the value of that player.

 

I think Mike Trout is the best player, Miguel Cabrera is the best hitter, and Clayton Kershaw is the best pitcher right now. WAR backs that belief up. Do you disagree with it?

[NorthSideSox72]

Stats and reality don't always match up. Of course he is going to say something like that. It's not like this was ever going to be a trick question. The farm system still sucks.

Sort of.

 

First of all, the farm system has been better than most in baseball at producing pitchers, in recent years. That doesn't play into the current narrative about the system, but people are starting to realize it now.

 

Second, the system has been nearly devoid of producing serviceable position players in the past 5 or 7 years. However, there are a few signs of life now, with a few infielders worth keeping an eye on. We'll see if they turn out to be anything or not. I personally think Semien is a starting major leaguer, and have for a while now. Micah Johnson is intriguing. There are others more raw as well.

 

Third and finally, the team has not only changed its draft philosophy in recent years, but they have made dramatic improvements in LatAm after that section of org being decimated post-Wilder.

 

Basically, the farm system still lacks depth, particularly in position players... but your characterization of it being something the same as always, "sucks", is inaccurate. There's real improvement already underway, but you won't see the fruits of that right away.

 

[iamshack]

Actually it'd be a helluva lot closer with the defense setup IMO, and a large portion of the remainder is Paul Konerko getting old. If you predicted that coming into this season, congratulations, I'd love to see the post where you suggested he needed traded and replaced.

 

If you don't have that, just go away and celebrate. Congratulations, you got a 90+ loss team, you must be so happy.

I will admit, I pretty much predicted this mess...

 

Well, not this bad, I suppose...this has been the least I have ever watched a White Sox team in my entire life...and after reflecting on that this weekend, I must say, unless they get the second coming of Mike Trout with that 3rd pick, it will have not been even close to worth it to be this freaking miserable. I hope this doesn't happen again for a long, long time...and then I start looking at next year...ugh

[Eminor3rd]

This confirms that WAR is damn near useless.

 

All tools are useless in the hands of those who have no clue how to use them.

[Quin]

Sort of.

 

First of all, the farm system has been better than most in baseball at producing pitchers, in recent years. That doesn't play into the current narrative about the system, but people are starting to realize it now.

 

Second, the system has been nearly devoid of producing serviceable position players in the past 5 or 7 years. However, there are a few signs of life now, with a few infielders worth keeping an eye on. We'll see if they turn out to be anything or not. I personally think Semien is a starting major leaguer, and have for a while now. Micah Johnson is intriguing. There are others more raw as well.

 

Third and finally, the team has not only changed its draft philosophy in recent years, but they have made dramatic improvements in LatAm after that section of org being decimated post-Wilder.

 

Basically, the farm system still lacks depth, particularly in position players... but your characterization of it being something the same as always, "sucks", is inaccurate. There's real improvement already underway, but you won't see the fruits of that right away.

 

Hopefully the Sox build a bigger reputation of developing pitchers and they get more and more picks.

 

Remember the vaunted Braves pitching prospects? Delgado, Teheran, and Beachy are all good but Sale is the best of the bunch and Quintana and Santiago aren't far behind.

 

Sometimes the unheralded prospects can be just as productive.

 

 

All tools are useless in the hands of those who have no clue how to use them.

 

Deep and profound philosophy on SoxTalk.

[Eminor3rd]

Deep and profound philosophy on SoxTalk.