Another Mass Shooting, the one in D.C.

[Balta1701]

How about no. 90% taxes? I'd be on the streets, as would everyone here. That'd give me about 200$ every few weeks to spend on everything if they taxed us at 90%. But, I see you thought this out.

You're an Illinois resident, right?

 

The State of Illinois has cut about $60 million a year from its mental health programs since 2009. And they're getting larger every year.

 

Since we're noting the lack of available facilities for mental health, I assume you would join us in supporting a $200/person additional tax in order to pay for additional prison and mental health facilities, enough to overcome the cuts since the crash and build a solid foundation for additional programs.

 

Right?

[EvilMonkey]

Do you even understand how graduated tax works?

 

The only part you pay 90% is the amount that is higher than that bracket. The top tax bracket now is $400k. Meaning that only dollars made over 400k would be taxed at 90%.

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/moneybuilder/2...marginal-rates/

 

But I know you actually do understand that, you are just trying to create a strawman argument suggesting that I was saying a "flat tax", which I never did.

 

Does this type of argument ever work?

You never mentioned graduated 90% taxes or just on the top bracket, you just said " Ill sign up for that right now, everyone in the US gets healthcare, no matter what, even if I have to pay 90% taxes." Changing goal posts now?

[Soxbadger]

You never mentioned graduated 90% taxes or just on the top bracket, you just said " Ill sign up for that right now, everyone in the US gets healthcare, no matter what, even if I have to pay 90% taxes." Changing goal posts now?

 

Why would I not be suggesting a graduated tax when that is the only tax system the US has ever used?

 

Last I checked I lived in the US.

 

But lets be honest, this line of argument by you and Y2hh is just proving my point. You dont really want to fix the problem, you just want to place the blame somewhere else. The 90% number is hyperbole, if anyone actually wanted to solve the problem they could easily say:

 

"Well 90% is to high, but maybe an extra 5% in taxes would be a good idea if it meant everyone go healthcare".

 

I just made a statement that I knew would get a predictable response from people, and then I could prove my point that people dont really want to help other people if it means theyll have to pay money.

 

(Edit)

 

And honestly, you and y2hh are just predictably missing the point. Solutions sometimes require sacrifice. Im willing to sacrifice for the betterment of others. Which is why I said "I". Im not expecting that everyone would give up 90% of their wages, it was hyperbole to call people on the red herring. Everyone just wants to blame someone else.

 

Why not step up to the plate and propose your own solutions?

 

You dont want gun laws, you dont want more money spent on mental health...?

Edited September 18, 2013 by Soxbadger

[southsider2k5]

? If you take a random year like 1959, the top income was $300k. There were likely more than 50 people who made that (I actually cant find any stat on this). Furthermore, any income over $14,000 was taxed at 39% or greater. That is now the HIGHEST tax bracket.

 

Why are we wasting this time with a red herring anyways. Not many gun owners are going to say "Ok Ill pay more money for mental health if it means I get to keep my guns."

 

Cause if they were, then maybe we can get a deal worked out.

 

I don't have the story in front of me now, but historically the very, very top tax changes were made to target a really, really narrow band of people. The original top tax bracket targeted something like the 10 or 15 richest families in the US IIRC. Comparing that to today's top bracket isn't nearly an equal comparison, as about 4 million people were in the top tax bracket last time around.

[EvilMonkey]

Why would I not be suggesting a graduated tax when that is the only tax system the US has ever used?

 

Last I checked I lived in the US.

 

But lets be honest, this line of argument by you and Y2hh is just proving my point. You dont really want to fix the problem, you just want to place the blame somewhere else. The 90% number is hyperbole, if anyone actually wanted to solve the problem they could easily say:

 

"Well 90% is to high, but maybe an extra 5% in taxes would be a good idea if it meant everyone go healthcare".

 

I just made a statement that I knew would get a predictable response from people, and then I could prove my point that people dont really want to help other people if it means theyll have to pay money.

 

(Edit)

 

And honestly, you and y2hh are just predictably missing the point. Solutions sometimes require sacrifice. Im willing to sacrifice for the betterment of others. Which is why I said "I". Im not expecting that everyone would give up 90% of their wages, it was hyperbole to call people on the red herring. Everyone just wants to blame someone else.

 

Why not step up to the plate and propose your own solutions?

 

You dont want gun laws, you dont want more money spent on mental health...?

I don't thinik anyone here said to not spend more on mental health. Nice try.

[illinilaw08]

How many of that 26% are shopaholics, ADHD or some other similar 'disorder' that gets treatment nowadays but is not the same as crazy person hearing voices in their head?

 

I agree that there are problems with mental health care in this country, but Jake and Tex were touching on some important points earlier in this thread:

 

1) The vast, vast majority of people with severe mental health issues do not commit mass murders (note, before any of the noted conservatives on this board jump in, I agree that the same can be said about legal gun owners and I concede that point);

 

2) Mental health care is a very expensive, never ending issue. The parent from an upper middle class family who has a child with severe autism has very different access to good, continuing health care than the person from a middle to lower income family (not to mention the differences in sponsored care from state to state).

 

3) Locking up everyone that has, at any point, heard voices, or who has been diagnosed with a mental health disorder is a complete non-starter. It's cost prohibitive and it's, frankly, inhumane.

 

4) Early diagnosis and treatment is critical. Investing in real meaningful health care is the only way to really make an impact here. The only entities with the resources to invest in that access are states (some of them anyway) and the feds.

 

5) Finally, the most important point when linking mental health to mass shootings. Diagnosis it, flag people with mental health issues, perform the background check, and prevent legal gun ownership.

 

The point here is that restricting rights to guns generally is not the answer to this particular question, nor is the answer "lock them up!" The answer is to diagnose and treat serious mental health issues while at the same time creating, and enforcing, rules that prevent those diagnosed from legally obtaining access to firearms.

[Y2HH]

Why would I not be suggesting a graduated tax when that is the only tax system the US has ever used?

 

Last I checked I lived in the US.

 

But lets be honest, this line of argument by you and Y2hh is just proving my point. You dont really want to fix the problem, you just want to place the blame somewhere else. The 90% number is hyperbole, if anyone actually wanted to solve the problem they could easily say:

 

"Well 90% is to high, but maybe an extra 5% in taxes would be a good idea if it meant everyone go healthcare".

 

I just made a statement that I knew would get a predictable response from people, and then I could prove my point that people dont really want to help other people if it means theyll have to pay money.

 

(Edit)

 

And honestly, you and y2hh are just predictably missing the point. Solutions sometimes require sacrifice. Im willing to sacrifice for the betterment of others. Which is why I said "I". Im not expecting that everyone would give up 90% of their wages, it was hyperbole to call people on the red herring. Everyone just wants to blame someone else.

 

Why not step up to the plate and propose your own solutions?

 

You dont want gun laws, you dont want more money spent on mental health...?

 

When posing hypotheticals, you never assume people know you're going to just stay with whatever system they already have in place.

 

You never said a word about graduated tax, or tax brackets. You posed a hypothetical that you'd be willing to play a flat 90% tax so long as everyone gets free healthcare. So I agree with him, you've moved the goalposts and added a bunch of disclaimers to what you said AFTER the fact.

[Iwritecode]

Shooters at Washington Navy Yard, Sandy Hook CT school, Aurora CO movie theater, Tucson AZ Congressional Town hall, and Virginia Tech.

 

I was just pointing out the fact that some people do it for fame and I don't even know/remember who they are.

 

Although two that we know for sure did it for fame are the Colombine killers. I actually remember their names.

 

[Balta1701]

I don't thinik anyone here said to not spend more on mental health. Nice try.

Are you willing to pay a substantial tax increase to do so?

[EvilMonkey]

Someone in the Navy should be in big trouble for this.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/09/18/navy-...intcmp=trending

 

A Newport, Rhode Island police sergeant reported Navy Yard shooter Aaron Alexis to naval station police last month after the suspect told cops he was “hearing voices” through his hotel room wall and that three people were following him and sending vibrations into his body, according to a police report obtained by FoxNews.com.

Warning signs were there. Authorities were notified, yet nothing was done. Blame the shooter, blame the people who didn't act when they had information. WHY they didn't act only they know. But their negligence in acting cost lives.

[Y2HH]

...and I'm already sacrificing enough.

 

My taxes go up every year, in the form of housing, from local, to county, to state, to federal, in addition to outright tax increases, the implementation of higher sticker fees, speed trap cameras designed to milk money from people in artificially low speed zones, etc.

 

Every year they raise taxes on this, fees on that, and every year their deficit find a way to grow more.

 

Show me results with what you have now, after years of successive property tax increases, and THEN I'd be happy to pitch in more, but that's not what they do. They raise taxes, nothing changes, nothing improves, and then they raise them again. And again.

[Balta1701]

...and I'm already sacrificing enough.

 

My taxes go up every year, in the form of housing, from local, to county, to state, to federal, in addition to outright tax increases, the implementation of higher sticker fees, speed trap cameras designed to milk money from people in artificially low speed zones, etc.

 

Every year they raise taxes on this, fees on that, and every year their deficit find a way to grow more.

 

Show me results with what you have now, after years of successive property tax increases, and THEN I'd be happy to pitch in more, but that's not what they do. They raise taxes, nothing changes, nothing improves, and then they raise them again. And again.

So in other words, you think it'd be great if mental health services were improved, but instead your state is gutting them, and given the choice you prefer that.

 

So fine. You refuse to pay for the mental health plan you advocated.

 

Can we take steps to get rid of the guns then?

[EvilMonkey]

Are you willing to pay a substantial tax increase to do so?

No, but I am prepared to sacrifice some foreign aid to help pay for it. Like, all of it.

[cabiness42]

Are you willing to pay a substantial tax increase to do so?

 

A few posts ago you said $200/person. If that's all it takes, then yes.

[Balta1701]

No, but I am prepared to sacrifice some foreign aid to help pay for it. Like, all of it.

I see. So no more guns for Israel?

[EvilMonkey]

I see. So no more guns for Israel?

I did say all of it. Can SELL them all they like.

[Y2HH]

So in other words, you think it'd be great if mental health services were improved, but instead your state is gutting them, and given the choice you prefer that.

 

So fine. You refuse to pay for the mental health plan you advocated.

 

Can we take steps to get rid of the guns then?

 

Yes, because it's my fault my city/county/state robbed the pension system blind, and now they have to find a way to pay it back...so my taxes should go up 3000% to compensate their robbery.

 

They're gutting these services because they never paid into the pension system which they promised to do, or squandered it on risky investments (which they weren't supposed to be doing), and how they're going to lean on the private citizens to repay it.

 

They have taken steps to get rid of guns, and what's it resulted in? Nothing. How many guns have they bragged about confiscating off the streets the last few years, thousands upon thousands? How's that murder rate doing?

 

So no, NOT fine.

[Balta1701]

No, but I am prepared to sacrifice some foreign aid to help pay for it. Like, all of it.

Oh, and here's actual numbers. "In 2005, a total of $135 billion was spent on behavioral health services in the United States."

 

Medicaid is the largest block of that, and it doesn't count prison expenses.

 

The US is currently spending about $50 billion a year on total foreign aid, economic and military. However, more than $15 billion of that is going to countries we recently invaded.

[Y2HH]

A few posts ago you said $200/person. If that's all it takes, then yes.

 

200$ per person per what? Per decade? Per year? Per month?

 

How many more bills will they increase or tax to pay for stuff they've stolen from or squandered away?

 

My water bill have quadruped the last 3 years. Has my water service gotten any better? No. And will it? No.

[Balta1701]

Yes, because it's my fault my city/county/state robbed the pension system blind, and now they have to find a way to pay it back...so my taxes should go up 3000% to compensate their robbery.

 

They're gutting these services because they never paid into the pension system which they promised to do, or squandered it on risky investments (which they weren't supposed to be doing), and how they're going to lean on the private citizens to repay it.

 

They have taken steps to get rid of guns, and what's it resulted in? Nothing. How many guns have they bragged about confiscating off the streets the last few years, thousands upon thousands? How's that murder rate doing?

 

So no, NOT fine.

Like I said. You're fine with saying how terrible it is that mental health services aren't getting the funding they need, but it's someone else's problem.

 

Mental Health Services are at the bottom of the totem pole. They have no advocates. When you guys talk about cutting waste, this is what gets cut. This is what you mean by waste.

[DukeNukeEm]

...and I'm already sacrificing enough.

 

My taxes go up every year, in the form of housing, from local, to county, to state, to federal, in addition to outright tax increases, the implementation of higher sticker fees, speed trap cameras designed to milk money from people in artificially low speed zones, etc.

 

Every year they raise taxes on this, fees on that, and every year their deficit find a way to grow more.

 

Show me results with what you have now, after years of successive property tax increases, and THEN I'd be happy to pitch in more, but that's not what they do. They raise taxes, nothing changes, nothing improves, and then they raise them again. And again.

Its the great con of our times. Government promises they can solve something, they just need money. When they make no difference they say they needed more money.

 

 

The state has no solution to mass shootings, they claim to when they ask for more money, stripping a large chunk of the population of their rights (the mentally I'll) and trying to finally get rid of those pesky guns.... but ultimately when they get everything they want nothing will change. Then they'll ask for more, and still nothing will change.

[EvilMonkey]

Oh, and here's actual numbers. "In 2005, a total of $135 billion was spent on behavioral health services in the United States."

 

Medicaid is the largest block of that, and it doesn't count prison expenses.

 

The US is currently spending about $50 billion a year on total foreign aid, economic and military. However, more than $15 billion of that is going to countries we recently invaded.

There ya go! $50 billion in new funding!

[Balta1701]

200$ per person per what? Per decade? Per year? Per month?

 

How many more bills will they increase or tax to pay for stuff they've stolen from or squandered away?

 

My water bill have quadruped the last 3 years. Has my water service gotten any better? No. And will it? No.

This really is impressive. "We need mental health care to prevent these tragedies". "Here's the bill"

 

 

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[EvilMonkey]

Like I said. You're fine with saying how terrible it is that mental health services aren't getting the funding they need, but it's someone else's problem.

 

Mental Health Services are at the bottom of the totem pole. They have no advocates. When you guys talk about cutting waste, this is what gets cut. This is what you mean by waste.

No, this is what spineless, crooked politicians mean by waste. I am sure that most citizens of either political spectrum would find different things to call waste and cut.

[cabiness42]

200$ per person per what? Per decade? Per year? Per month?

 

How many more bills will they increase or tax to pay for stuff they've stolen from or squandered away?

 

My water bill have quadruped the last 3 years. Has my water service gotten any better? No. And will it? No.

 

Well, I don't live in Illinois, so I don't have all the same issues you are facing. If it costs me $200 more per year in taxes in order to have a mental health system that prevents or at least greatly reduces what are now semi-annual mass killings by crazy people, then yes, that's worth it. I understand that there is a larger picture of where the rest of our tax money is going, but if a $200/year tax increase directly improves our mental health system that much, then it's by far worth it.