Another Mass Shooting, the one in D.C.

[Balta1701]

No, this is what spineless, crooked politicians mean by waste. I am sure that most citizens of either political spectrum would find different things to call waste and cut.

 

It simply doesn't even compute how contradictory the position is that we need all these new mental health services and we have to cut spending everywhere.

[Y2HH]

This really is impressive. "We need mental health care to prevent these tragedies". "Here's the bill"

 

 

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

There is no point in talking to you.

 

They're already raising more money, through tax increases, and other fees...I already highlighted this pretty clearly.

 

The problem is, WE cannot tell them where to spend that money.

 

1) They ARE raising more money, they're just NOT giving it to mental health care facilities.

 

2) You have no point.

[cabiness42]

 

It simply doesn't even compute how contradictory the position is that we need all these new mental health services and we have to cut spending everywhere.

 

Not really that contradictory. There is plenty of wasteful spending, especially at the Federal level, that could be re-routed to mental health services.

 

[southsider2k5]

You're an Illinois resident, right?

 

The State of Illinois has cut about $60 million a year from its mental health programs since 2009. And they're getting larger every year.

 

Since we're noting the lack of available facilities for mental health, I assume you would join us in supporting a $200/person additional tax in order to pay for additional prison and mental health facilities, enough to overcome the cuts since the crash and build a solid foundation for additional programs.

 

Right?

 

If mental health is currently $135 billion, and we have cut $200 per person, per year, you are saying that the old mental health budget was around $200 billion a year, and has come down about 30% in 4ish years?

 

[Y2HH]

Well, I don't live in Illinois, so I don't have all the same issues you are facing. If it costs me $200 more per year in taxes in order to have a mental health system that prevents or at least greatly reduces what are now semi-annual mass killings by crazy people, then yes, that's worth it. I understand that there is a larger picture of where the rest of our tax money is going, but if a $200/year tax increase directly improves our mental health system that much, then it's by far worth it.

 

Therein lies the problem.

 

They already ARE raising at LEAST 200$ more per person in Chicago, EASILY. My property tax alone doubled in the last 3 years, my water bill quadrupled...and I can go on and on.

 

Just because they're making more money in the form of taxes doesn't mean they'll spend it where I want them to spend it. That's not how it works...that's why he has no point. They already DO have more money, they're just not spending it where HE wants or feels they need too...because they can't. After underfunding a pension system to the tune of BILLIONS, there is no alternative.

[Balta1701]

Not really that contradictory. There is plenty of wasteful spending, especially at the Federal level, that could be re-routed to mental health services.

Like I said. People say that "Oh there's plenty of wasteful spending". I point out "Great, when budget cuts happen, mental health services is at the top of the list". It's happening in state after state, across the country, to the tune of billions of dollars since the crash. The cuts are everywhere. In your state, in your city, regardless of where your state and city are.

 

This is how it works. Mental Health services are exactly what gets cut when you insist that waste needs to be cut out. And then when that gets pointed out, people stick their heads in the ground and scream about the other unidentified waste that they know in their hearts must be there.

[Iwritecode]

The state has no solution to mass shootings

 

Nobody does because there really isn't one "fix-all" solution.

 

Rules put in place to have possibly prevented Colombine wouldn't have prevented Sandy Hook. Rules that might have prevented SH wouldn't have prevented this latest one.

 

 

[Y2HH]

Like I said. People say that "Oh there's plenty of wasteful spending". I point out "Great, when budget cuts happen, mental health services is at the top of the list". It's happening in state after state, across the country, to the tune of billions of dollars since the crash. The cuts are everywhere. In your state, in your city, regardless of where your state and city are.

 

This is how it works. Mental Health services are exactly what gets cut when you insist that waste needs to be cut out. And then when that gets pointed out, people stick their heads in the ground and scream about the other unidentified waste that they know in their hearts must be there.

 

And in IL, a BIG huge reason "waste" needs to be cut, is because there is a state amendment GUARANTEEING pension payments, yet in IL, we have a pension system underfunded by (currently) more than ONE HUNDRED BILLION DOLLARS.

[cabiness42]

Like I said. People say that "Oh there's plenty of wasteful spending". I point out "Great, when budget cuts happen, mental health services is at the top of the list". It's happening in state after state, across the country, to the tune of billions of dollars since the crash. The cuts are everywhere. In your state, in your city, regardless of where your state and city are.

 

This is how it works. Mental Health services are exactly what gets cut when you insist that waste needs to be cut out. And then when that gets pointed out, people stick their heads in the ground and scream about the other unidentified waste that they know in their hearts must be there.

 

You brought me right back to my original point. If people were more worried about mental health than gun control, then more lobbying dollars would be spent on mental health issues than gun issues, and in turn Congress would be less inclined to cut mental health services.

 

So if people really want to get the government to do something about mental health, then just shut the f*** up about guns for a while.

[cabiness42]

How about this? Federal excise tax on all gun purchases, with the money going directly to mental health care??

[EvilMonkey]

How about this? Federal excise tax on all gun purchases, with the money going directly to mental health care??

How about we tax all these endowments sitting out there untaxed, like the Ford Foundation and stuff.

[Soxbadger]

When posing hypotheticals, you never assume people know you're going to just stay with whatever system they already have in place.

 

You never said a word about graduated tax, or tax brackets. You posed a hypothetical that you'd be willing to play a flat 90% tax so long as everyone gets free healthcare. So I agree with him, you've moved the goalposts and added a bunch of disclaimers to what you said AFTER the fact.

 

Of course you agree with him, you guys do the exact same thing where you just fixate on a statement to try and take away focus from the real issue.

 

Or maybe Im just giving you too much credit, and you actually arent being that clever.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Soxbadger

[Quin]

I'm not gonna read the thread, I got to page 2 and all I can say is...

 

f*** anyone who says you should lock up the mentally ill.

[Balta1701]

How about we tax all these endowments sitting out there untaxed, like the Ford Foundation and stuff.

And churches too I hope?

[Y2HH]

I'm not gonna read the thread, I got to page 2 and all I can say is...

 

f*** anyone who says you should lock up the mentally ill.

 

Awesome solution, instead we should just let them roam the streets.

 

Also, define mentally ill...I'm not talking about a person suffering temporary emotional issues...I'm talking about people like this guy, who heard f***ing voices in his head, and had repeated serious mental issues in the past. There's a big difference.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Y2HH

[Soxbadger]

And churches too I hope?

 

They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

 

Damn straight Caesar should be allowed to get his beak wet in tithe money.

[Y2HH]

How about this? Federal excise tax on all gun purchases, with the money going directly to mental health care??

 

I have absolutely no issues with this. Now, let's see them do it.

 

What they'll do instead, is add such a tax (Chicago sure as hell made it expensive to own a gun here legally), and ZERO of it will go to mental health facilities. They'll spend it on some pet project, I'm sure. Maybe they'll build a new park next to millennium park for 100 million dollars, instead. Oh, wait, already doing that.

[Y2HH]

Conversations like this tend to get heated, and often a lot of what someone means is lost in translation of text.

 

Allow cooler heads to prevail.

 

The issue with many suggestions here, not that they're bad suggestions, is that we're just assuming that when they raise additional money, they'll do the right thing and actually deliver it to mental health facilities instead of shutting them down. What we cannot do, however, is ignore the vast unfunded obligations this state is dealing with, such as the pension system, etc. Many of these suggestions are great, on paper, but in reality, that added money will just be tossed into an endless sinkhole for better education that never materializes and pension bills they'll never repay. And the list goes on from there.

[cabiness42]

And churches too I hope?

 

Churches don't generally have endowments, but if they do, then sure.

 

[Soxbadger]

Conversations like this tend to get heated, and often a lot of what someone means is lost in translation of text.

 

Allow cooler heads to prevail.

 

The issue with many suggestions here, not that they're bad suggestions, is that we're just assuming that when they raise additional money, they'll do the right thing and actually deliver it to mental health facilities instead of shutting them down. What we cannot do, however, is ignore the vast unfunded obligations this state is dealing with, such as the pension system, etc. Many of these suggestions are great, on paper, but in reality, that added money will just be tossed into an endless sinkhole for better education that never materializes and pension bills they'll never repay. And the list goes on from there.

 

And I agree, but my point is that its up to us. Ultimately we are responsible. And if we want to make things better, it means we are going to have to change.

 

I know that my money may be poorly spent, that it will be mismanaged. But I hope that it wont be, I hope that there are other people out there who will do the right thing. Because I really do believe that majority of people dont want to hurt other people, that they actually would go out of there way to help someone else.

 

If I didnt, none of this would be worth it. I have to trust and have some belief in other people.

[Y2HH]

And I agree, but my point is that its up to us. Ultimately we are responsible. And if we want to make things better, it means we are going to have to change.

 

I know that my money may be poorly spent, that it will be mismanaged. But I hope that it wont be, I hope that there are other people out there who will do the right thing. Because I really do believe that majority of people dont want to hurt other people, that they actually would go out of there way to help someone else.

 

If I didnt, none of this would be worth it. I have to trust and have some belief in other people.

 

It gets hard, as an adult, to watch them tax us higher and charge us more for everything you can think of while we watch much of this going on.

 

That said, it's also important to note that this is partially caused by the Internet and the media, as a quick scan of the Internet, or any media outlet today would pretty much confirm how bad things are out there...when in reality, the US has never been safer.

[EvilMonkey]

I have absolutely no issues with this. Now, let's see them do it.

 

What they'll do instead, is add such a tax (Chicago sure as hell made it expensive to own a gun here legally), and ZERO of it will go to mental health facilities. They'll spend it on some pet project, I'm sure. Maybe they'll build a new park next to millennium park for 100 million dollars, instead. Oh, wait, already doing that.

Kinda like lottery money going to the schools. They may take all the money and put it towards the issue, but they will then take away money that they were already paying from other sources.

[Quin]

Awesome solution, instead we should just let them roam the streets.

 

Also, define mentally ill...I'm not talking about a person suffering temporary emotional issues...I'm talking about people like this guy, who heard f***ing voices in his head, and had repeated serious mental issues in the past. There's a big difference.

 

Meanwhile you have people like me that have the same f***ing problem and are actively seeking help and not going to buy a gun.

 

Anyone that owns a gun right now is more dangerous than me and I'm supposed to be locked up? f*** that.

[lostfan]

You know what? I think this is actually the best we can do. This is what we've collectively decided we want and that we're okay with it. We've repeatedly rejected even the smallest, most token attempts to do anything about it in all the previous incidents, we'll have the same exact arguments and decide we won't do anything about this either. There WILL be another event like this and these are NOT rare events, even if we like to pretend they are sometimes. This is how it's going to be. Garbage in, garbage out. It is what it is.

[Jake]

The whole problem is acting like the state of Illinois is the entity to do this.

 

State governments are f***ing stupid in the 21st century and work much worse than federal governments. They consistently f*** up every responsibility that they have, while nobody knows why they have those responsibilities (education standards, healthcare) instead of other entities (local governments? federal government?). Their means of collecting the money to fix these things are meager and without fail are regressive and harmful to the lower earners of the states. We have a high amount of agreement in the USA that progressive taxation is a good and fair thing while the norm in state governance is a flat tax.

 

There's no way I want state governments running new mental health services when they can't do anything already. No state governments are working well. We need to reduce the responsibilities given to them, not increase them.