Hahn:Ventura will return in 2014

[Marty34]

BECAUSE IT HELPS IN 2016

 

what the f***

 

What does it buy you in 2016? I'd rather have a spot or two filled on the roster with a player in their mid-twenties with that money by the time we get to 2016.

[witesoxfan]

What does it buy you in 2016? I'd rather have a spot or two filled on the roster with a player in their mid-twenties with that money by the time we get to 2016.

 

OK, then spend it in 2015. The Sox are going to go hard after Abreu and McCann this offseason, and perhaps Saltalamacchia. Maybe they sign a role player, a starting pitcher, they trade a starting pitcher, they trade other veterans, who knows. The one thing Hahn made quite clear last offseason is that he is going to spend money on the team efficiently. If something makes sense, the team will go for it. He's not giving out $19 million to Scott Linebrink.

[Marty34]

The Braves. There was a team that agreed to pay Adam Dunn $56 million for his production through 2010 too. In baseball, due to each player being their own monopoly, they have the ability to sell themselves to the highest bidder. Upton was worth $75 million to someone, Dunn was worth $56 million to someone. Given the numbers they put up in their first years with their teams, they'd get contracts of maybe $1-2 million with incentives. They aren't going to get $30 million and no one will pay $30 million for Upton right now.

 

The price of a WAR is what $6-$7M ? Upton was roughly a 2 war player with Tampa. $30M is a bargain.

[Dick Allen]

The price of a WAR is what $6-$7M ? Upton was roughly a 2 war player with Tampa. $30M is a bargain.

Now you are back to trolling again.

[witesoxfan]

The price of a WAR is what $6-$7M ? Upton was roughly a 2 war player with Tampa. $30M is a bargain.

 

Approximately $5 million. Upton was worth -$3 million last year. That is the player you are trading for, not the player from Tampa. Would you pay $30 million for Adam Dunn after his 2011 season? There's no point in asking that question because the answer is no.

 

And THE WORST PART is that you are suggesting the White Sox eat $30 million for a prospect who will likely put up 0.0 WAR in the majors just to facilitate the trade of BJ Upton to another team. I could care less what Upton is doing, because you are saying the White Sox take on $30 million to pick up a B level prospect who will almost certainly never be a productive player in the major leagues, and you are defeating the purpose of trading for prospects by taking on money like that because, as was mentioned, you are losing your surplus value for a young player. It's not going to happen.

 

This is a waste of time. You're arguing a flawed and terrible point just to argue a flawed and terrible point. You are listening to a terrible idea Dan Bernstein came up with that works in the NBA and that's about it.

[Marty34]

Approximately $5 million. Upton was worth -$3 million last year. That is the player you are trading for, not the player from Tampa. Would you pay $30 million for Adam Dunn after his 2011 season? There's no point in asking that question because the answer is no.

 

And THE WORST PART is that you are suggesting the White Sox eat $30 million for a prospect who will likely put up 0.0 WAR in the majors just to facilitate the trade of BJ Upton to another team. I could care less what Upton is doing, because you are saying the White Sox take on $30 million to pick up a B level prospect who will almost certainly never be a productive player in the major leagues, and you are defeating the purpose of trading for prospects by taking on money like that because, as was mentioned, you are losing your surplus value for a young player. It's not going to happen.

 

This is a waste of time. You're arguing a flawed and terrible point just to argue a flawed and terrible point. You are listening to a terrible idea Dan Bernstein came up with that works in the NBA and that's about it.

 

You don't think there will be a market for any player with a bad contract with a severe discount. Given what Pence received from the Giants, I disagree.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Marty34

[witesoxfan]

You don't think there will be a market for any player with a bad contract with a severe discount. Given what Pence received from the Giants, I disagree.

 

The only comparable situations I can think of in the last 10-15 years were both Blue Jays - Tony Batista and Alex Rios. Batista was coming off a two year stretch where he hit 72 homers and put up a .270/.318/.519/.837 and had a relatively lucrative deal for the time period coming up. He had a .611 OPS at the time he was let go to Baltimore and had only 2 more additional years remaining. Rios put up a .291/.337/.461/.798 line the year before he was let go on waivers for free to the White Sox, and was still putting up a .744 OPS at the time he was let go. He had 4 years remaining at $12 million per.

 

Upton has one really good year to his credit, several OK years, and is coming off a .557 OPS. No, I don't think anybody is taking Upton and his $60 million remaining over the next 4 years. The Braves would have to eat a substantial amount of money for a team to take him on.

 

Frankly, I wouldn't be terribly upset if the Sox were able to trade Danks for him because that pretty much evens out and there is upside there. I doubt the Braves would make it with their depth, but you never know. It'd be outlandish to take on $30 million to merely acquire a prospect. Yasiel Puig signed a $42 million deal, Yoenis Cespedes $36 mill. You are talking about giving 70% of the money for Yasiel Puig and 85% of the money for Cespedes to acquire a B level prospect. You can put your money towards that. If you don't get Abreu, there is another Cuban middle infielder available. There are free agents you can spend money on next year. There are about a million different ways to actually spend money more efficiently than $30 million for a B level prospect.

 

EDIT: Oh, and Hunter Pence was really, really good this year. His WAR monetary value was $27.2 million this year and his career WAR value is $110.4 mill. It's more than I would have paid, so I think he was overpaid, but Sabean and the Giants felt he was worth it. It's not the worst contract out there.

Edited October 2, 2013 by witesoxfan

[caulfield12]

Let alone why would a team give up any reasonable prospect for BJUpton and a $30 million committment? He was Adam Dunn 2011 bad in 2013. I wouldn't trade Dunn for Upton. $15 million vs. $60 million.

 

 

I think my idea at the beginning of the year was Dunn for Upton and $30 million.

 

 

[witesoxfan]

Not to piss the stat guys off, Hunter Pence brings more than his actual production to the game. He is a hustler and a leader. One of my favorite players to watch and would have welcomed him gladly to our Sox.

 

His contract is identical to the contract Torii Hunter got after 2008. The difference: that was five years ago and Hunter was two years older when he signed. Both were remarkably consistent prior to signing the contracts as well. Hunter played strong through the entirety of his contract and again, he was two years older than Pence is now. When all is said and done I doubt the Giants regret that contract.

You aren't going to piss stats guys off. Pence was a really good hitter this year and he plays really good defense. There will be times he struggles with his average and his overall production will take a big hit as a result, but when he's hitting .280 or better, he's going to be a great player.

[LittleHurt05]

EDIT: Oh, and Hunter Pence was really, really good this year. His WAR monetary value was $27.2 million this year and his career WAR value is $110.4 mill. It's more than I would have paid, so I think he was overpaid, but Sabean and the Giants felt he was worth it. It's not the worst contract out there.

 

I totally didn't realize he was good in 2013. He had a s***ty 2012 and I figured he was on the decline already. The end of the contract may get a bit iffy, but the first few years should be a fine deal if he keeps it up.

[Marty34]

It has been written that Toronto wants to shed payroll in order to have money to upgrade their rotation via FA. What would they give to take Buehrle's $37M off their hands? Buehrle then is a stop-gap replacement for the starter they deal.

[witesoxfan]

It has been written that Toronto wants to shed payroll in order to have money to upgrade their rotation via FA. What would they give to take Buehrle's $37M off their hands? Buehrle then is a stop-gap replacement for the starter they deal.

 

They want to upgrade their pitching, so naturally they'd trade their best pitcher

[southsider2k5]

It has been written that Toronto wants to shed payroll in order to have money to upgrade their rotation via FA. What would they give to take Buehrle's $37M off their hands? Buehrle then is a stop-gap replacement for the starter they deal.

 

[click]

[Marty34]

They want to upgrade their pitching, so naturally they'd trade their best pitcher

 

Okay then they deal Reyes.

[Marty34]

[click]

 

- 1

[witesoxfan]

Okay then they deal Reyes.

 

Now I'm confused. Are you still suggesting taking on money from his deal to pick up a prospect, or are you suggesting trading for Jose Reyes himself? Because both are bad ideas. He's guaranteed $86 million over the next 4 seasons and the White Sox should want no part of that.

[Marty34]

Now I'm confused. Are you still suggesting taking on money from his deal to pick up a prospect, or are you suggesting trading for Jose Reyes himself? Because both are bad ideas. He's guaranteed $86 million over the next 4 seasons and the White Sox should want no part of that.

 

Give them Ramirez in return since they think their window is open, that brings the Sox obligation for Reyes down to $66M. I think the trade market would be pretty good for Reyes at $33M.

[witesoxfan]

Give them Ramirez in return since they think their window is open, that brings the Sox obligation for Reyes down to $66M. I think the trade market would be pretty good for Reyes at $33M.

 

Yeah, OK, you're still on this kick. See ya

[Marty34]

Yeah, OK, you're still on this kick. See ya

 

You don't think there would be a good market for Reyes at 33M?? A 2.5+ WAR SS and a team could get him at 8M per?

Edited October 2, 2013 by Marty34

[Dick Allen]

You don't think there would be a good market for Reyes at 33M?? A 2.5+ WAR SS and a team could get him at 8M per?

So you want the Sox to basically trade Ramirez and $33 million for a prospect. I am ROTFL as I type this. What kind of prospect?

 

It is clear you are trolling. You mentioned last time how your way was better than the Sox going out and signing Abreu, then later said you didn't know the first thing about Abreu.

 

 

Edited October 2, 2013 by Dick Allen

[Marty34]

So you want the Sox to basically trade Ramirez and $33 million for a prospect. I am ROTFL as I type this. What kind of prospect?

 

Absolutely. Dick Allen you can offer a team a damn near 3 WAR a year SS for $8M a year that will have value.

[witesoxfan]

You don't think there would be a good market for Reyes at 33M?? A 2.5+ WAR SS and a team could get him at 8M per?

 

Alexei Ramirez is due $20 million over the next two years and put up a 3.1 WAR last year. You are suggesting that the White Sox trade him for 2.5 WAR Jose Reyes and $66 million more guaranteed dollars, you eat $33 million of that, and then you trade Jose Reyes.

 

Think about the logistics of that and how wrong and backwards that is.

[Dick Allen]

Absolutely. Dick Allen you can offer a team a damn near 3 WAR a year SS for $8M a year that will have value.

Again what type of prospect considering you are giving up your own 3 WAR SS and $33 million?

Edited October 2, 2013 by Dick Allen

[Dick Allen]

Alexei Ramirez is due $20 million over the next two years and put up a 3.1 WAR last year. You are suggesting that the White Sox trade him for 2.5 WAR Jose Reyes and $66 million more guaranteed dollars, you eat $33 million of that, and then you trade Jose Reyes.

 

Think about the logistics of that and how wrong and backwards that is.

I have to believe he knows how little any of this makes sense, but he gets a kick out of arguing and thinking he's driving people crazy.

[Marty34]

Alexei Ramirez is due $20 million over the next two years and put up a 3.1 WAR last year. You are suggesting that the White Sox trade him for 2.5 WAR Jose Reyes and $66 million more guaranteed dollars, you eat $33 million of that, and then you trade Jose Reyes.

 

Think about the logistics of that and how wrong and backwards that is.

 

Ramirez had an 86 OPS+. Reyes had a 113 OPS+. I don't believe in dWAR which is where most of Ramirez' WAR value lies.