Jeff Manto fired

[greg775]

Funny enough, JR was the one who blocked him from getting the Cubs. Cuban was on Olbermann a few weeks ago, and he said he was told by JR that he had no chance so he shouldn't even bother trying. He didn't bother listening to JR, but was indeed blocked from buying the Cubs by him. He went on to say he will not pursue buying another baseball team because of those politics - getting blocked from buying a team by a guy who didn't even know him, nor did he have even a 5 minute conversation with ever.

 

That's a wild story. Yet Jerry has no problem with the Royals' inept owner, David Glass. I wonder what Jerry feared from Cuban in owning the Cubs. The Cubs appear to have a capable owner now. Cuban might have been worse than what the Cubs would up getting.

Edited September 30, 2013 by greg775

[nitetrain8601]

That's a wild story. Yet Jerry has no problem with the Royals' inept owner, David Glass. I wonder what Jerry feared from Cuban in owning the Cubs. The Cubs appear to have a capable owner now. Cuban might have been worse than what the Cubs would up getting.

 

Eh, he knew Cuban would throw all his money into attempting to fixing the Cubs. With Ricketts, he knows he won't spend much money in improving the team.

[greg775]

Eh, he knew Cuban would throw all his money into attempting to fixing the Cubs. With Ricketts, he knows he won't spend much money in improving the team.

 

What a good ol boys club. Is Reinsdorf that popular all the other owners would just say, "Screw you Cubs. You aren't considering any bids by Cuban." Why do the other owners feel any allegiance to Jerry? Cuban just might be a breath of fresh air. I can't believe how the Sox are unable to become the best franchise in this weak-ass division. Cuban or somebody might fix that. We should be dominating the Central year in and out.

[Soxfest]

As we discuss these coaching situations, and the actions of the FO bringing former players back into the fold, I can't help but feel that the 800 lb. gorilla is ultimately being ignored. Specifically, is JR, as he ages, running the team more and more like a family, and less and less like a business, as he needs to?

 

Position player drafting and development philosophies throughout our org. need a serious enema, but will RH be able to do the housecleaning that's necessary? Just one of many ?'s I have about our future. Is the "Reinsdorf Ring of Loyalty", as flavum hilariously called it, inhibiting us from making the necessary changes?

 

When I see what the Pirates have accomplished this year by lowering BABIP Against through defensive positioning in conjunction with pitching strategy, and what Maddon accomplishes in this area annually, it seems obvious that we seriously need some new approaches to get with the times. The way we seemingly value power more than hit tool/OBP in our draft/development looks like a strategy better suited to 2000, than to 2013 onward. Does it trickle down from a narrow "we play in a HR hitters park, therefore, we need to develop HR hitters" mindset, rather than a (preferably to me) "become a good hitter FIRST and trust that the power will come" philosophy?

 

I fear that we won't get to where we all want to be until JR moves on. Probably a topic for a new thread, but I'm lazy.

Very true time to think outside the White Sox box.

[SoxAce]

A hitting coach who actually preaches OBP is fine with me.

[2nd_city_saint787]

What a good ol boys club. Is Reinsdorf that popular all the other owners would just say, "Screw you Cubs. You aren't considering any bids by Cuban." Why do the other owners feel any allegiance to Jerry? Cuban just might be a breath of fresh air. I can't believe how the Sox are unable to become the best franchise in this weak-ass division. Cuban or somebody might fix that. We should be dominating the Central year in and out.

 

 

What's so hard to believe? This division is far from weak. The Tigers are a top 3 team in all of baseball. The Indians just blew a load in free agency this past offseason and are hosting the AL Wild Card game. Plus the Royals have the lowest ERA in the AL.

 

 

[Eminor3rd]

Thank you. Probably not much chance at bringing in someone who preaches patience, but at least we have a shot now.

[Harry Chappas]

A hitting coach who actually preaches OBP is fine with me.

 

His comments when hired should have gotten him fired the next day. He was not a believer in OBP and as such they are where they are.

[Eminor3rd]

His comments when hired should have gotten him fired the next day. He was not a believer in OBP and as such they are where they are.

 

Agreed. At least they dumped him before he could permanently damaged Garcia/Semien.

 

Semien walk rate in AA: 17.4%. Result: League MVP

Semien walk rate in ML: 1.4% Result: .261./268/.405

[flavum]

His comments when hired should have gotten him fired the next day. He was not a believer in OBP and as such they are where they are.

 

Amen.

 

I'm not huge on hitting coaches making a huge difference, but that was ridiculous when Manto said he didn't care about walks.

 

I hope they talk to Rudy Jaramillo and Kevin Seitzer.

[southsider2k5]

Amen.

 

I'm not huge on hitting coaches making a huge difference, but that was ridiculous when Manto said he didn't care about walks.

 

I hope they talk to Rudy Jaramillo and Kevin Seitzer.

 

Jaramillo is an interesting name with two regressing Cubans in the line up, plus the potential for them to go after Abreu. I know he isn't Cuban, but I wonder if being able to speak your native language to your hitting coach might help.

[greg775]

Agreed. At least they dumped him before he could permanently damaged Garcia/Semien.

 

Semien walk rate in AA: 17.4%. Result: League MVP

Semien walk rate in ML: 1.4% Result: .261./268/.405

 

That's just alarming! Somebody should bring that stat to Soxfest this year. I mean, totally unacceptable. Thank goodness Manto got fired for this horrific offense.

[Eminor3rd]

That's just alarming! Somebody should bring that stat to Soxfest this year. I mean, totally unacceptable. Thank goodness Manto got fired for this horrific offense.

 

Yeah, I mean you can't put all that on Manto -- Semien wasn't going to be able to rake ML just like he did AA. But it's difficult to justify a hitting coach that believes in free-swinging when your team just lost 100 games chock full of free swingers.

 

And you can bet Semien was taking direction from Manto as he was trying to adjust. The result, so far, has been a completely different player. Small sample, of course.

[Dick Allen]

Yeah, I mean you can't put all that on Manto -- Semien wasn't going to be able to rake ML just like he did AA. But it's difficult to justify a hitting coach that believes in free-swinging when your team just lost 100 games chock full of free swingers.

 

And you can bet Semien was taking direction from Manto as he was trying to adjust. The result, so far, has been a completely different player. Small sample, of course.

C'mon. Semien was not striking out more and walking less at the major league level because he was listening to the hitting coach, and the entire Manto mantra was taken way out of context. He mentioned in a radio interview he would rather Adam Dunn swing at a pitch a little out of the zone vs. Verlander with a runner on 3rd and less than 2 with the infield back, than take a pitch and walk figuring there was a better chance at runs.

 

Manto also emphasized contact. The problem is, you need players who can make contact.

 

I don't know if Manto was any good or not. But if you blame him for Semien, you probably should blame him for everyone else, therefore, the Sox offense should be fine next year.

[Texsox]

A hitting coach who actually preaches OBP is fine with me.

 

A hitting coach that looks at each player, recognizes their strengths and weaknesses, is fine with me. I can't believe Manto coached any differently than he said he would in the interviews.

 

What I find interesting is they pulled the hook this soon. That hasn't been the approach before. It seemed as if you had a job for life with Reinsdorf unless you pulled at Doug Collins.

 

[Eminor3rd]

C'mon. Semien was not striking out more and walking less at the major league level because he was listening to the hitting coach, and the entire Manto mantra was taken way out of context. He mentioned in a radio interview he would rather Adam Dunn swing at a pitch a little out of the zone vs. Verlander with a runner on 3rd and less than 2 with the infield back, than take a pitch and walk figuring there was a better chance at runs.

 

Manto also emphasized contact. The problem is, you need players who can make contact.

 

I don't know if Manto was any good or not. But if you blame him for Semien, you probably should blame him for everyone else, therefore, the Sox offense should be fine next year.

 

I don't blame him for the results, but I do blame him for the approach. Because practically every player on the team has a hitting approach that stops working around the HS varsity level. And when you get a guy who has an extremely advanced approach come up and suddenly start swinging at everything, you can't help but wonder.

[Dick Allen]

I don't blame him for the results, but I do blame him for the approach. Because practically every player on the team has a hitting approach that stops working around the HS varsity level. And when you get a guy who has an extremely advanced approach come up and suddenly start swinging at everything, you can't help but wonder.

It seems every White Sox prospect has 0 or 1 walks and 20+ strikeouts their first 70 ABs in the major leagues. I still don't know how you pin that on the major league hitting coach. He isn't going to be changing their approach immediately. Guys are overmatched. They are facing better pitchers than they have in the past, plus they are probably trying to show they are worthy and being a little or far too aggressive. Hopefully, Semien settles down and becomes a good hitter at the major league level.

[Eminor3rd]

It seems every White Sox prospect has 0 or 1 walks and 20+ strikeouts their first 70 ABs in the major leagues. I still don't know how you pin that on the major league hitting coach. He isn't going to be changing their approach immediately. Guys are overmatched. They are facing better pitchers than they have in the past, plus they are probably trying to show they are worthy and being a little or far too aggressive. Hopefully, Semien settles down and becomes a good hitter at the major league level.

 

The point is that the entire White Sox roster -- save Adam Dunn, who had a disastrous early season bout of "humility" inspired by Sox coaches -- is full of dudes that swing at bad pitches and get themselves out. So while you're right that Semien's example may not be damning evidence, but it fits with the overarching trend, and that trend is a bad one.

[Dick Allen]

The point is that the entire White Sox roster -- save Adam Dunn, who had a disastrous early season bout of "humility" inspired by Sox coaches -- is full of dudes that swing at bad pitches and get themselves out. So while you're right that Semien's example may not be damning evidence, but it fits with the overarching trend, and that trend is a bad one.

I think that is because of the type of hitters they are, not because Jeff Manto says do this do that. Manto actually preached contact. You wouldn't know it watching them hit. Thinking he's saying go up there, make sure you don't walk and swing as hard as you can in case you hit it is just not the truth. People erroneously thought Walker preached that as well. Remember the old "lift and pull"?

 

I think Semien will be better, but not because they are changing hitting coaches. Hopefully he becomes a star and gives the new guy all the credit.

 

I don't really care about walk rates as long as a guy is swinging a good pitches to hit, the only thing being if you generally are only swinging at decent pitches to hit, you most likely are going to walk a fair share of time. There have been a couple of exceptions, and the Sox are probably pinning a lot of their hopes on Garcia who probably is going to have to be an exception.

[Eminor3rd]

I think that is because of the type of hitters they are, not because Jeff Manto says do this do that. Manto actually preached contact. You wouldn't know it watching them hit. Thinking he's saying go up there, make sure you don't walk and swing as hard as you can in case you hit it is just not the truth. People erroneously thought Walker preached that as well. Remember the old "lift and pull"?

 

I think Semien will be better, but not because they are changing hitting coaches. Hopefully he becomes a star and gives the new guy all the credit.

 

I don't really care about walk rates as long as a guy is swinging a good pitches to hit, the only thing being if you generally are only swinging at decent pitches to hit, you most likely are going to walk a fair share of time. There have been a couple of exceptions, and the Sox are probably pinning a lot of their hopes on Garcia who probably is going to have to be an exception.

 

Agree 100% with the bolded. I actually am not even worried about the team's strikeout problem, it's the contact with bad pitches that gets me. And that's what I didn't like about Manto -- he seemed to be in the "expand the zone to drive in runs" school that is led by Harold Reynolds. The only time that ever makes sense is if you're TRYING to make a productive out like a sac fly or a grounder to the right side. "Run producers" should be looking to rip doubles, and you need to be selective to do that with regularity.

[greg775]

I wonder how many guys the new hitting coach will recommend keeping? We have a lot of players that could be reclamation projects if they are not traded/released.

We say Coop saves lousy pitchers off the scrap heap. Will the new hitting coach want to try with some of our hitters?

 

This hitting coach ... will he want to try to make a hitter out of an unproductive first-round pick in Beckham? Does he think Viciedo can learn how to recognize a pitch out of the strike zone and learn how to hit? Does he think Flowers and/or Phegs can learn how to hit? Will he even want the job knowing he has to work with Mr. Whiff at An Alarming Rate, Adam Dunn? Can he take Lexi to the next level? Or will he yawn and tell Hahn he only is looking forward to A. Garcia in this current lineup?

Edited September 30, 2013 by greg775

[Eminor3rd]

I wonder how many guys the new hitting coach will recommend keeping? We have a lot of players that could be reclamation projects if they are not traded/released.

We say Coop saves lousy pitchers off the scrap heap. Will the new hitting coach want to try with some of our hitters?

 

This hitting coach ... will he want to try to make a hitter out of an unproductive first-round pick in Beckham? Does he think Viciedo can learn how to recognize a pitch out of the strike zone and learn how to hit? Does he think Flowers and/or Phegs can learn how to hit? Will he even want the job knowing he has to work with Mr. Whiff at An Alarming Rate, Adam Dunn? Can he take Lexi to the next level? Or will he yawn and tell Hahn he only is looking forward to A. Garcia in this current lineup?

 

Garcia needs just as much work on the strike zone as Viciedo -- he just makes more contact.

[kitekrazy]

If some things are rooted deep in an organization, it's more difficult for change at the big league level. They should fire the hitting instructors in the minors as well.

[Jake]

Agreed. At least they dumped him before he could permanently damaged Garcia/Semien.

 

Semien walk rate in AA: 17.4%. Result: League MVP

Semien walk rate in ML: 1.4% Result: .261./268/.405

 

For what it's worth, his walk rate had already been cut in half after his promotion to AAA. This is among the reasons I'd like to see him get more MiLB seasoning because he really was just surviving in AAA (by his standards). He went from BB outnumbering Ks to an almost 2:1 K:BB in AAA and then didn't walk at all in MLB.

 

Amen.

 

I'm not huge on hitting coaches making a huge difference, but that was ridiculous when Manto said he didn't care about walks.

 

I hope they talk to Rudy Jaramillo and Kevin Seitzer.

 

Manto never said that - the example he had given in the interview that led to much of Soxtalk thinking that he hated walks was him giving a situation in which his hypothetical best hitter is up with a base open and man in scoring position. He said, in this case, he wants the guy trying to get a hit because a walk doesn't benefit the team. This is, of course, correct. There are some situations where you'd much rather have the guy at the plate take a shot on something he can hit than pass it on to the guy behind him.

 

[Balta1701]

The problem with that thinking is it can get you in trouble as well. If you swing out of the zone trying to make contact and drive the run in, you're not likely to make solid contact. You swing at an unhittable pitch, get into a bad count and then that's it.